My Catholic friend wants to be an Episcopalian.

[GKC]

"The Episcopal Church has members in the United States, as well as in Colombia, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Haiti, Honduras, Micronesia, Puerto Rico, Taiwan, Venezuela, and the Virgin Islands.

We strive to love our neighbors as ourselves and respect the dignity of every person.

The Episcopal Church is part of the worldwide Anglican Communion, and traces its heritage to the beginnings of Christianity."

episcopalchurch.org/page/i-am-episcopalian

Yes, I know. But the Episcopal Church is not a branch of the world-wide Anglican Communion. It is an independent church, one of 38 such that form the Communion. None of which are branches of the communion, but equal, independent, constituent parts of it. Which is the point of my comment.

And the Anglican Communion does not exhaust the concept of Anglican. There are Anglican jurisdictions not a part of the Communion.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[RileyG]

I do hope that more Episcopalians become Catholic (Praise to God forever and ever. Amen). Also, not to mention, the Episcopalian Church is slowly dying, it’s not going to make it IMHO. I know there are several former Episcopalians decided to become Catholic because of how extreme-liberal the church is. Your friend needs much prayers.

God Bless

Edit: I’m not referring to Anglicans, in my experience, many Anglicans are closer to Catholic than Protestants.

 

[57Bill]

Isn’t there a “Pastoral Provision” by John Paul II for certain Episcopalians?

What’s wrong if he is joining one of these churches?

 

[Nabooru]

I’m an Anglo-Catholic myself. Most Anglo-Catholics these days eventually end up in Rome, which I might do. There are still theological issues on which I am very much Protestant, though. Right now I’m attending an ACNA churh.

 

[Tyuiop411]

I’m an Anglo-Catholic myself. Most Anglo-Catholics these days eventually end up in Rome, which I might do. There are still theological issues on which I am very much Protestant, though. Right now I’m attending an ACNA churh.

Are there many Anglo-Catholic parishes in the ACNA? From what I understood the ACNA was mostly comprised of Evangelical low-church congregations.

 

[Nabooru]

These days most Anglo-Catholics end up going to Rome. I might myself one day. There are a few parishes here and there, though. I think a lot of it depends on the original congregation, for example. REC congregations are more evangelical, although that being said, I attend an REC parish and it’s more liturgical that my old LCMS church. I remember getting dirty looks for crossing myself back then.

 

[Conor7]

Yes, I know. But the Episcopal Church is not a branch of the world-wide Anglican Communion. It is an independent church, one of 38 such that form the Communion. None of which are branches of the communion, but equal, independent, constituent parts of it. Which is the point of my comment.

And the Anglican Communion does not exhaust the concept of Anglican. There are Anglican jurisdictions not a part of the Communion.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

That’s fair and you’re right. I over simplified.

 

[Conor7]

I do hope that more Episcopalians become Catholic (Praise to God forever and ever. Amen). Also, not to mention, the Episcopalian Church is slowly dying, it’s not going to make it IMHO. I know there are several former Episcopalians decided to become Catholic because of how extreme-liberal the church is. Your friend needs much prayers.

God Bless

Edit: I’m not referring to Anglicans, in my experience, many Anglicans are closer to Catholic than Protestants.

I’m sure numbers are down in the Episcopal Church as they are for all churches save maybe the Pentecostal movement. However, I don’t think you can speculate that the Episcopal Church is slowing dying because you have a few former Episcopalians in your parish anymore than I can say the Episcopal Church is thriving because a fourth of my parish is made up of former Roman Catholics. For good reasons or for bad reasons, people church shop.

 

[Tyuiop411]

I’m sure numbers are down in the Episcopal Church as they are for all churches save maybe the Pentecostal movement. However, I don’t think you can speculate that the Episcopal Church is slowing dying because you have a few former Episcopalians in your parish anymore than I can say the Episcopal Church is thriving because a fourth of my parish is made up of former Roman Catholics. For good reasons or for bad reasons, people church shop.

Well all mainline Protestant churches are in decline and have been for decades. But the Episcopal church seems to be on a mission to purge it’s conservative members.

Here’s some numbers I found after a bit of searching.

First printed in The Church of England Newspaper.

A statistical analysis presented to the Executive Council of the Episcopal Church on 27 January 2012 reports the American church has experience a traumatic decline in all quantifiable areas of church life over the past decade.

In their 42-page PowerPoint presentation to the Executive Council, Dr. C. Kirk Hadaway and Dr. Matthew Price noted that to “get a broad-based sense of congregational vitality, we have used a number of measurements including church school enrollment, marriages, funerals, child baptisms, adult baptisms, and confirmations. These speak to a parish’s integration in the community and the possibility for future growth.”

Church school enrollment has declined by 33 per cent.
The number of marriages performed declined by 41 per cent.
The number of burials fell by 21 per cent.
The number of child baptisms declined by 36 per cent.
The number of adult baptisms declined by 40 per cent.
The number of confirmations declined by 32 per cent.

“While these numbers may not capture the totality of what is happening in the Church, we do not have a measure that is moving in a positive direction,” the church’s statisticians reported.

In the six years following the consecration of Gene Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire, from 2004 to 2010, the Episcopal Church’s average Sunday attendance fell by 17 per cent and its total membership declined by 13 per cent. Of those still in the Episcopal Church as of 2010, 30 per cent were over the age of 65, where as those over 65 comprise only 13 per cent of the total U.S. population.

In addition to the church’s sharp decline in its pastoral health, the number of churches reporting financial difficulties rose sharply such that by 2010 72 per cent of congregations reported they were in “financial stress”.

 

[Conor7]

I don’t doubt that these numbers are correct, but what would be more interesting,
Tyuiop411, is to know how these numbers compare to other mainline churches. Or even better, is there a report that details how many Episcopalians left due to current controversies?

Unlike the RCC in the US, the Episcopal Church is primarily white and we haven’t experienced the same immigrant influx. I suppose we may still get the Canadians yet.

 

[Tyuiop411]

I don’t doubt that these numbers are correct, but what would be more interesting,
Tyuiop411, is to know how these numbers compare to other mainline churches. Or even better, is there a report that details how many Episcopalians left due to current controversies?

Unlike the RCC in the US, the Episcopal Church is primarily white and we haven’t experienced the same immigrant influx. I suppose we may still get the Canadians yet.

I’m not aware of any polls that answer why Episcopalians left, but I will look into finding numbers for other mainline churches.

One thing I will share though is I think out of all the mainline churches the UMC is doing the best, at least in the South where I live. In my city (which isn’t small it has about 120,000 people) there are 4 large UMC churches with an unknown number of smaller UMC congregations (probably about 10), while Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Episcopalians put together only have 8 churches. But the king here is, of course, the Baptists.

Then there are 3 Latin-Rite parishes,and one Marionite parish. Which is about average for a primarily white city in the South. Also theres one Eastern Orthodox parish associated with Antioch, which is primarily composed of college students since this is a university town.

 

[CMatt25]

I don’t doubt that these numbers are correct, but what would be more interesting,
Tyuiop411, is to know how these numbers compare to other mainline churches. Or even better, is there a report that details how many Episcopalians left due to current controversies?

Unlike the RCC in the US, the Episcopal Church is primarily white and we haven’t experienced the same immigrant influx. I suppose we may still get the Canadians yet.

I’m sure you are correct but just wanted to say the Episcopal Church I’m considering attending if I attend an Episcopal church has an English Mass and a Spanish Mass and the Spanish one is the most heavily attended.

 

[CMatt25]

if you don’t believe in the resurrection, or even think there is no afterlife and Jesus never really existed in a literal sense, TEC is for you.

Actually if I ever start attending an Episcopal church it won’t be for any of those reasons. As I believe in the resurrection, an afterlife, and the existence of Jesus. I’d be doing so because I would be welcomed as I am and regardless of my politics. It would not be suggested by anyone that I be turned away from their Holy Communion since it is open to all baptized Christians. That’s something I like because Christ said in His discourse on the Eucharist He would turn no one away. The particular one I’d consider attending, though small and gathering for worship in their modest parish hall, also has a great outreach program for the poor and homeless. And the pastor from what I can tell seems available to be of service to all people, both her members and non members alike.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Actually if I ever start attending an Episcopal church it won’t be for any of those reasons. As I believe in the resurrection, an afterlife, and the existence of Jesus. I’d be doing so because I would be welcomed as I am and regardless of my politics It would not be suggested by anyone that I be turned away from their Holy Communion since it is open to all baptized Christians. That’s something I like because Christ said in His discourse on the Eucharist He would turn no one away. The particular parish I’d consider attending also has a great outreach program for the poor and homeless. And the pastor from what I can tell seems available to be of service to all people, both her members and non members alike.

Well I don’t think there is anyone who professes to be a Christian that rails against an outreach program for the poor and homeless. And I don’t know of many churches that turn the poor and homeless away, regardless of denomination.

That being said, the problem of the Episcopal Church is not in its outreach program, but in its excessive inclusiveness. Of course, people of all walks of life are invited into the church. But you cannot attract them by preaching falsehood. If the Episcopal Church tolerates or advocates certain beliefs irreconcilable with Christianity, then that is the major problem.

What’s the point of going to a church that will not lead you to eternal salvation and communion with God?

Additionally, I think it’s safe to say that it is holding these liberal political and religious issues that have harmed the Episcopal Church in terms of membership numbers.

In fact, I think that is why mainline Protestant denominations in general have been declining in the United States (with the exception of those groups that have maintained traditionalist approaches, like WELS/Missouri Synod Lutherans and ACNA Anglicans).

 

[Nabooru]

LCMS numbers are dropping, but not like TEC numbers. Actually I think a lot of the LCMS exodus has to do with their mismanagement of, and greed for more, money. But they still preach unaltered Christianity.

The ELCA has been losing members faster, IIRC. They’re like Scandinavian episcopalians. I remember reading an ELCA church’s website in California - Ebenezer Church, now known as herchurch, where they hand out goddess beads. My brother’s girlfriend goes to an ELCA church, and while I’ve never been there, my brother has. He never talks to me about what goes on there…

This is Ebenezer/herchurch’s website: herchurch.org/

 

[CMatt25]

Well I don’t think there is anyone who professes to be a Christian that rails against an outreach program for the poor and homeless. And I don’t know of many churches that turn the poor and homeless away, regardless of denomination.

That being said, the problem of the Episcopal Church is not in its outreach program, but in its excessive inclusiveness. Of course, people of all walks of life are invited into the church. But you cannot attract them by preaching falsehood. If the Episcopal Church tolerates or advocates certain beliefs irreconcilable with Christianity, then that is the major problem.

What’s the point of going to a church that will not lead you to eternal salvation and communion with God?

You’re probably right about Christian outreach. But I know of other outreach programs of various faiths that have thrift type shops where clothing has a nominal charge. And I just happen to like the idea that this one offers clothing, food, meals at absolutely no charge whatsoever to the recipients. I like the idea of not charging any amount of money, no matter how small, to those who are already short on funds and in need.

Also inclusiveness is what I like. I believe Christ wants His Church to be inclusive. A hospital for sinners too not only for saints.

On your other points I guess I just have yet to be as convinced as you that the Episcopal Church is irreconcilable with Christianity or that one can not be saved if attending and worshiping there. God bless you on your faith journey. Peace.

 

[Nabooru]

Hmm, the ELCA has lost 1.96% of its membership vs. 1.08% for LCMS. Not much of a difference, but still there.

I left the LCMS because of the money issues (my old pastor closed down our beautiful church and had it bulldozed into a parking lot to move into an old Target store and make a sad attempt at a mega-church), and the fact that it can’t decide whether it wants to be traditional or hip evangelical. For example, at the church I mentioned, they have a fitness center (…), an acting company that puts on such classics as “Bye Bye Birdie” (why?), “contemporary worship”, etc. On top of that is the baggage that goes along with belonging to a VERY exclusive church - only confirmed LCMS members can take communion, and they don’t tolerate altar-and-pulpit fellowship - that has a very exclusive theology. I remember in confirmation class our pastor describing why virtually all othe denominations weren’t really Christians: Baptists had the wrong idea about communion, Presbyterians were Calvinists, don’t get me started on Catholics and Orthodox, Anglicans didn’t have clear-cut doctrine, Methodists didn’t care about justification… So basically anybody who wasn’t LCMS was going to hell.

 

[PRmerger]

What’s the point of going to a church that will not lead you to eternal salvation and communion with God?**

And, I would add: what’s the point of going to a church that preaches everything that aligns with your own views?

Don’t you think that if there is a God, and he came and started a Church, that he’s going to proclaim some things that are not aligned with your own personal views?

If you are in a church that happens to agree with every single thing that you agree with, then I daresay that you’re probably in a church that’s formed in your own image, not God’s.

**(NB: whether the Episcopal Church does not lead you to eternal salvation and communion with God–I am not qualified to say.)

Hiya, Matt, BTW!

 

[CMatt25]

Hmm, the ELCA has lost 1.96% of its membership vs. 1.08% for LCMS. Not much of a difference, but still there.

I left the LCMS because of the money issues (my old pastor closed down our beautiful church and had it bulldozed into a parking lot to move into an old Target store and make a sad attempt at a mega-church), and the fact that it can’t decide whether it wants to be traditional or hip evangelical. For example, at the church I mentioned, they have a fitness center (…), an acting company that puts on such classics as “Bye Bye Birdie” (why?), “contemporary worship”, etc. On top of that is the baggage that goes along with belonging to a VERY exclusive church - only confirmed LCMS members can take communion, and they don’t tolerate altar-and-pulpit fellowship - that has a very exclusive theology. I remember in confirmation class our pastor describing why virtually all othe denominations weren’t really Christians: Baptists had the wrong idea about communion, Presbyterians were Calvinists, don’t get me started on Catholics and Orthodox, Anglicans didn’t have clear-cut doctrine, Methodists didn’t care about justification… So basically anybody who wasn’t LCMS was going to hell.

I like contemporary Christian music. It inspires me. The Episcopal church I’ve mentioned is more traditional. But 2 other Episcopal churches near me have contemporary services among their array of various types of services. One has a Christian band performing at one of their 4 services and the other a jazz ensemble at one of their 3 services. I understand though about what you say about exclusiveness.

 

[CMatt25]

And, I would add: what’s the point of going to a church that preaches everything that aligns with your own views?

Don’t you think that if there is a God, and he came and started a Church, that he’s going to proclaim some things that are not aligned with your own personal views?

If you are in a church that happens to agree with every single thing that you agree with, then I daresay that you’re probably in a church that’s formed in your own image, not God’s.

**(NB: whether the Episcopal Church does not lead you to eternal salvation and communion with God–I am not qualified to say.)

Hiya, Matt, BTW!

Hiya PR, hope all’s well with you and your family.