My child won't sit for church at all

[EasterJoy]

I think it’s important for ALL families to go to mass. There is no requirement for the kids to be quiet at mass. We seem overly concerned about this issue and it’s really stressful if the kid even makes a peep. We need to teach them to behave and be quiet and respectful but if they make a little noise it’s not the end of the world.

I also try to sit in the front row with my kids and that helps a ton! They can see everything instead of the backsides of people.

This is an important qualification. There is “behaving” and then there is “behaving”. A parish that is not dead is going to have some peeps! Just because children cannot be allowed to use church furnishings as if they were gym equipment does not mean a two-year-old will never climb around in a pew. We found that being allowed to sit in front was a great incentive to be non-distracting, too, just as you did. People were very kind about it, and they often gave the boys compliments for how well-behaved they were when they were far short of “perfect”! Still, the standard was that they could not sit in front unless they made it possible for other people to ignore them. To do otherwise is not fair to the other parishioners. Of course there is always going to be someone in the parish with a young child, so the stage of toddlerhood does, in that sense, last forever!

The issue of whether to leave a child at home comes in when the child doesn’t have the capacity to stay in one place for that long nor to be quiet enough for others to hear what is going on. For instance: some occasional child-level commentary can be tolerated, but the homily needs to be heard. OTOH, it doesn’t do for the child to look at church as a repressive experience. It is to be expected that a child will have a bad day and need to be removed once in awhile, but a steady diet of that doesn’t work for anyone. If we expect what the child cannot do and then scold them for not doing it, the child is going to resent that whole situation, and rightly so. If we let the child yell and kick or bang on the pews and run around bothering people who don’t have the authority to correct the child themselves, that is unfair to the people having to endure that level of distraction.

We found that the key was to expect the child to stay put and stay reasonably quiet in situations other than Mass. That way Mass did not get singled out as the one place they had to control themselves, and they got practice more than once a week. When they were old enough to control themselves outside of Mass, then it was reasonable to expect them to control themselves at Mass. Otherwise, any system of expectations, incentives, and penalties is just a sham. The poor kid won’t have any chance of winning, and he’ll know it. At that point, he’ll probably decide he may as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb, and watch out!

…Each kid is different, though. I know my brother and his wife did the alternating-Mass-leave-the-kids-at-home thing when their twins were in the throes of the “terrible twos”. You do what you have to do.

We had twins with a hearing loss (which can make for a very loud child!) and my husband had a much lower threshold for what an acceptable level of “peeping” was than what I did. The “cry room” experiment was a classroom in what we didn’t want them to do, so we abandoned that in the hopes that they’d forget they’d ever seen that kind of behavior at church. We introduced them back gradually, and when they were five (within two years of their 1st Holy Communion), we deemed that Mass was an obligation for them. They were fine with that, as we presented it as a recognition that they were grown-up boys, a positive thing. I will say that we probably went without them for somewhat longer than we ought to have. We had their grandmother, a non-Catholic, living with us, so it was easy to let the time slip by. A couple who has to attend Mass separately so that someone can stay home with the ones not able to manage Mass or a family with children of different ages and one child in the middle who has the sit-still problem (rather than the youngest) would have a very different experience. The solution has to be crafted to fit the entire family’s circumstance.

 

[Jon_S_1]

This is an important qualification. There is “behaving” and then there is “behaving”. A parish that is not dead is going to have some peeps! Just because children cannot be allowed to use church furnishings as if they were gym equipment does not mean a two-year-old will never climb around in a pew. We found that being allowed to sit in front was a great incentive to be non-distracting, too, just as you did. People were very kind about it, and they often gave the boys compliments for how well-behaved they were when they were far short of “perfect”! Still, the standard was that they could not sit in front unless they made it possible for other people to ignore them. To do otherwise is not fair to the other parishioners. Of course there is always going to be someone in the parish with a young child, so the stage of toddlerhood does, in that sense, last forever!

The issue of whether to leave a child at home comes in when the child doesn’t have the capacity to stay in one place for that long nor to be quiet enough for others to hear what is going on. For instance: some occasional child-level commentary can be tolerated, but the homily needs to be heard. OTOH, it doesn’t do for the child to look at church as a repressive experience. It is to be expected that a child will have a bad day and need to be removed once in awhile, but a steady diet of that doesn’t work for anyone. If we expect what the child cannot do and then scold them for not doing it, the child is going to resent that whole situation, and rightly so. If we let the child yell and kick or bang on the pews and run around bothering people who don’t have the authority to correct the child themselves, that is unfair to the people having to endure that level of distraction.

We found that the key was to expect the child to stay put and stay reasonably quiet in situations other than Mass. That way Mass did not get singled out as the one place they had to control themselves, and they got practice more than once a week. When they were old enough to control themselves outside of Mass, then it was reasonable to expect them to control themselves at Mass. Otherwise, any system of expectations, incentives, and penalties is just a sham. The poor kid won’t have any chance of winning, and he’ll know it. At that point, he’ll probably decide he may as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb, and watch out!

We had twins with a hearing loss (which can make for a very loud child!) and my husband had a much lower threshold for what an acceptable level of “peeping” was than what I did. The “cry room” experiment was a classroom in what we didn’t want them to do, so we abandoned that in the hopes that they’d forget they’d ever seen that kind of behavior at church. We introduced them back gradually, and when they were five (within two years of their 1st Holy Communion), we deemed that Mass was an obligation for them. They were fine with that, as we presented it as a recognition that they were grown-up boys, a positive thing. I will say that we probably went without them for somewhat longer than we ought to have. We had their grandmother, a non-Catholic, living with us, so it was easy to let the time slip by. A couple who has to attend Mass separately so that someone can stay home with the ones not able to manage Mass or a family with children of different ages and one child in the middle who has the sit-still problem (rather than the youngest) would have a very different experience. The solution has to be crafted to fit the entire family’s circumstance.

Good Points!

I use a coloring sheet as an incentive.

I have my kids participate (stand sit kneel) and they do well even my 3 year old but I of sometimes end up holding her. I let her sit on the floor or stand or even stand still on the pew when we are standing as long as she is quiet and not jumping around. She does well.

So they more or less participate until the homily and that’s when I break out the coloring stuff.

Then when the homily is done the coloring goes away and they participate again.

If they are good they get lunch out or a dessert at home with lunch.

One day I had them play a "game " of counting the times the priest bows or kneels. They liked that. Stuff like that can be done when they are closer to 4.

Also we try to generally wear. “Church clothes” and my kids all have cross necklaces they only wear to church.

I’m a firm believer that dressing up a bit (nothing crazy) helps them realize it’s not play time.

 

[MessyMom]

When my older kids were in this phase, a coloring book and letting them walk between us in the pew was enough to keep them mostly quiet. If they were loud, they were taken out to the narthex without their coloring book.

My current 3 year old who is in this phase has required us to do separate Masses. He is content to color like the others were but he has no “quiet voice”. His “quiet voice” is closer to a raised voice of other children, you should hear him when he’s unhappy! That boy can scream!

Separate Masses have been wonderful for our stress levels. One of us goes Saturday night, the other goes Sunday morning, so Sunday isn’t completely taken up with one of us at Mass and we can still have family time.

 

[EasterJoy]

…Also we try to generally wear “Church clothes” and my kids all have cross necklaces they only wear to church.

I’m a firm believer that dressing up a bit (nothing crazy) helps them realize it’s not play time.

Yes. It doesn’t have to be fancy clothing, although that can be pleasurable, especially to little girls. When we wear clothing that feels as if it is for a more solemn event, we tend to act accordingly. (After a certain age, that is. It is hard to predict how a small child will react to putting on very different clothing!!)

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Two years old is understandable. My godson is 4 years old and his mother only takes him to a protestant church, with her friend, because my parish does not have child care during Mass but this non-denominational church does during their service. His mother tells me that there is no way he would be able to sit still through Mass. And I know it is true. His mom loves him a lot and spoils both him and his brother a lot and does not discipline them. My godson can literally punch her in the face or throw a toy at her and all she will do is yell “Stop” and all he will do is laugh. I have seen it No way this kid will sit through Mass and not be a problem. Forget about the dad. I love him, he is my friend but he is not a practicing Catholic and I am angry about how he lives and the example it sets for my godson.

I am hoping that when my godson gets a little more time in school, he will learn some discipline there and be able to sit still enough to pay attention and think about what is going on. Even if he does not understand it. I will be making sure he makes his sacraments though. It is so frustrating that at his age, he is not afraid of his parents’ punishing him for being bad, because they do not!

 

[takers]

I personally use our church’s child care for my almost 3 year old. I attend Mass by myself (DH isn’t Catholic) and after struggling with the mad zoo or the cry room and struggling to keep her quiet-ish and still-ish in the pews I decided that my faith bucket needed more attention than hers did at this moment in time. So into childcare she goes. She knows we go to church on Sundays (or at least that we go to church on some days as she doesn’t know her days of the week yet) and that it’s a special time to dress-up. Next year she’ll go to Sunday school (our church has 3-6 year olds in Sunday school during Mass) and I hope will have a bit better of an ability to sit still during Holy Days and non-Sunday school days.

I say this to 1) offer up the suggestion of checking into childcare options at your church, and 2) know that you’re not alone!

 

[EasterJoy]

Two years old is understandable. My godson is 4 years old and his mother only takes him to a protestant church, with her friend, because my parish does not have child care during Mass but this non-denominational church does during their service. His mother tells me that there is no way he would be able to sit still through Mass. And I know it is true. His mom loves him a lot and spoils both him and his brother a lot and does not discipline them. My godson can literally punch her in the face or throw a toy at her and all she will do is yell “Stop” and all he will do is laugh. I have seen it No way this kid will sit through Mass and not be a problem. Forget about the dad. I love him, he is my friend but he is not a practicing Catholic and I am angry about how he lives and the example it sets for my godson.

I am hoping that when my godson gets a little more time in school, he will learn some discipline there and be able to sit still enough to pay attention and think about what is going on. Even if he does not understand it. I will be making sure he makes his sacraments though. It is so frustrating that at his age, he is not afraid of his parents’ punishing him for being bad, because they do not!

What makes me fear that the boy is a hellion at the Protestant church, too? Is he with his mom, or does mom get respite from her child while she goes to the adult gathering and some sitter gets to deal with him? (If he behaves well in childcare, that would be telling, not to mention reassuring.)

A child who commits even a minor assault on any adult, let alone his mother, and laughs at the resulting correction or even a child who takes pleasure in upsetting someone else has problems deeper than the wiggles. That is very worrisome, because of the cruelty in it. I’d worry less about a child who loses their temper when crossed than one who enjoys being the source of strife. I know some children grow into empathy late, I know a cruel sense of humor can be learned without appreciation that it is cruel, I know it is hard for a child to develop a will to please when he can do no wrong, but that is a child to worry about. A school might make him manageable, but with his mom in the picture he won’t be well-behaved until she learns to make him into a disciple who want to be a pleasure to others.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

What makes me fear that the boy is a hellion at the Protestant church, too? Is he with his mom, or does mom get respite from her child while she goes to the adult gathering and some sitter gets to deal with him? (If he behaves well in childcare, that would be telling, not to mention reassuring.)

A child who commits even a minor assault on any adult, let alone his mother, and laughs at the resulting correction or even a child who takes pleasure in upsetting someone else has problems deeper than the wiggles. That is very worrisome, because of the cruelty in it. I’d worry less about a child who loses their temper when crossed than one who enjoys being the source of strife. I know some children grow into empathy late, I know a cruel sense of humor can be learned without appreciation that it is cruel, I know it is hard for a child to develop a will to please when he can do no wrong, but that is a child to worry about. A school might make him manageable, but with his mom in the picture he won’t be well-behaved until she learns to make him into a disciple who want to be a pleasure to others.

The mother says that the protestant church she goes to has childcare. She says the reason she does not go to my parish (and I have asked when is she going to start going a Catholic Church?) Is because it does not have childcare. So yeah, someone else is dealing with him. He goes to pre-school too. Last thing she told me about that, is that my godson does not like other kids sitting so close to him and he elbows them away or something. Her kids (she has two. My godson who is 4 and a older brother who is 6) respect their grandparents. Just not the parents. The older one has calmed down a lot. I think it might be from the fact that he has already been in school for over a year. I will take on the responsibility of making sure he makes his sacraments too, because his godfather (also a friend of mine) is not a practicing Catholic and I don’t know the story with his godmother.

I know I am painting a bad picture of the mother, but she really is a good mother in all other ways except disciplining them. She is very self sacrificing and spoils them so much, because both her parents were in prison most the time when she was growing up and she spent time in foster homes. And she had them so young. I think she had her first at 18.

Think she would get offended if I got her a book about disciplining problem kids? I would in a heartbeat if I did not think it might hurt her feelings.

 

[Cat]

The mother says that the protestant church she goes to has childcare. She says the reason she does not go to my parish (and I have asked when is she going to start going a Catholic Church?) Is because it does not have childcare. So yeah, someone else is dealing with him. He goes to pre-school too. Last thing she told me about that, is that my godson does not like other kids sitting so close to him and he elbows them away or something. Her kids (she has two. My godson who is 4 and a older brother who is 6) respect their grandparents. Just not the parents. The older one has calmed down a lot. I think it might be from the fact that he has already been in school for over a year. I will take on the responsibility of making sure he makes his sacraments too, because his godfather (also a friend of mine) is not a practicing Catholic and I don’t know the story with his godmother.

I know I am painting a bad picture of the mother, but she really is a good mother in all other ways except disciplining them. She is very self sacrificing and spoils them so much, because both her parents were in prison most the time when she was growing up and she spent time in foster homes. And she had them so young. I think she had her first at 18.

Think she would get offended if I got her a book about disciplining problem kids? I would in a heartbeat if I did not think it might hurt her feelings.

The problem with discipline books is that they all have a different approach. Dobson, Sears, Popchak, Dr. Phil, the Tiger Mom, etc.–all very different in their discipline “philosophy” and methods.

This might be one reason why this mother is having a difficult time with discipline–she’s getting conflicting stories on all sides. Some of her friends might insist on corporal punishments (spanking), while others might claim that spanking exacerbates behavior problems.

Then there are the people who insist that parents should just “use their common sense and go with their instincts!” The problem is this is that a lot of people don’t have common sense when it comes to raising children (in large part because there is no universally-accepted societal norm for child behavior in the U.S.), and many parental instincts lead a parent to just let their child do whatever they want–that’s a lot easier than trying to influence and change a child’s behavior. (A lot of child experts and parents will say that it’s impossible to change a child’s behavior, or that it is wrong to even try to change a child’s behavior!).

Ai yi yi!

I really don’t have any suggestion for you other than to continue to be friends with the mother, and if you are close enough friends, try to engage her in discussions about various child discipline techniques. But unless you have personal experience with a method that works, you won’t really be much help to her. And even if you have raised children well using a certain method, many people resent having someone try to make suggestions about their discipline methods (or lack of methods, as it seems to be in this case). Sorry.

 

[misspriss]

I personally use our church’s child care for my almost 3 year old. I attend Mass by myself (DH isn’t Catholic) and after struggling with the mad zoo or the cry room and struggling to keep her quiet-ish and still-ish in the pews I decided that my faith bucket needed more attention than hers did at this moment in time. So into childcare she goes. She knows we go to church on Sundays (or at least that we go to church on some days as she doesn’t know her days of the week yet) and that it’s a special time to dress-up. Next year she’ll go to Sunday school (our church has 3-6 year olds in Sunday school during Mass) and I hope will have a bit better of an ability to sit still during Holy Days and non-Sunday school days.

I say this to 1) offer up the suggestion of checking into childcare options at your church, and 2) know that you’re not alone!

I am considering going to a different church a bit farther away because it has childcare and my current one does not (or even a cry room!). I have a 9 month old who is on the verge of walking. He has been a handful from about 7 months, but it is getting increasingly more difficult.

I am Catholic, and my husband is not. He does come to Mass every week, but he does sometimes. Even then, it is stilling juggling the baby back and forth to keep him happy.

I really feel that I need him in nursery most Sundays more than he needs to be in Mass at this age.