My church doesnt have an Icon Screen so sue me?

  • Thread starter Thread starter hjig22
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
H

hjig22

Guest
My church does not contain an icon screen.The people at my parish dont want one and as far as im concered we are not missing anything. Icon screens big deal who really needs one. For the parishes that have one good for you, thats why so many EC churches are closing because they dont accept changes like this. Theirs nothing wrong with my church and its worship.Also, the Divine Litergys are celebrated as they should be open and with musical accompanyment. Lets think about this for a second if your churches werent founded by people clining to the old ways your church would not have one either.Were having a hard enough time surviving in this world without our worship being covered up.
 
Are you a true Eastern Catholic, because it to me it sounds as if you have been so heavily Latinized that you are rejecting Church Tradition. I don’t mean to be harsh, but the East isn’t about picking and choosing what you want, look at what has happened in the West with Cafeteria Catholics. Both the East and West have their problems, but that does not mean conform to something outside of their Tradition, Theology, or Spirituality.
 
It is not me I like icon screens but my parish doesnt. I could attend the two churches that due but they will be closing down in a few years.That wont help me. What would you do?
 
In other words the parish dosent want parish tradition.Id like it
 
I assume you are referring to pictures and statues is this right?
 
There is a parish here that also doesn’t have an icon screen. Shame that they are the most beautiful parish and all the elements of their parish including outside architecture shouts Byzantine tradition. Then when you get inside the front looks like the sanctuary of an RC parish. The icons of Christ Pantokrator and the Theotokos had to placed there for them.

If the parish doesn’t exude Eastern spirituality, then why would I bother to go there? Unless thats the nearest parish. I mean in my case I drive out to my Eastern parish and there’s an RC parish 2 blocks from my home. So if what I drive out to isn’t Eastern, why waste gas? I’ll just walk to the nearest RC parish.
 
There is a parish here that also doesn’t have an icon screen. Shame that they are the most beautiful parish and all the elements of their parish including outside architecture shouts Byzantine tradition. Then when you get inside the front looks like the sanctuary of an RC parish. The icons of Christ Pantokrator and the Theotokos had to placed there for them.

If the parish doesn’t exude Eastern spirituality, then why would I bother to go there? Unless thats the nearest parish. I mean in my case I drive out to my Eastern parish and there’s an RC parish 2 blocks from my home. So if what I drive out to isn’t Eastern, why waste gas? I’ll just walk to the nearest RC parish.
Agreed CTG. Are the Ukranians the only Jurisdiction in the US that still has parishes without Iconostasis?
 
Agreed CTG. Are the Ukranians the only Jurisdiction in the US that still has parishes without Iconostasis?
I don’t know, I’m in Canada 😃

Nor sure if Ukrainians are the only ones who would have parishes without the iconostasis, but it seems more of a common occurrence than other traditions.

From photos we have another parish without an iconostasis, but its one of the really small parishes in the smaller towns of BC. The sanctuary is small enough that if you put Royal Doors there you won’t be able to swing it inwards to open. Then there’d be no space for Deacon Doors. So I’d let that one slide 😃 But the one I describe also happens to be the largest parish we have here, even bigger than the Cathedral I attend. And its a well funded parish, they have a huge parcel of land in a rather expensive part of town (real estate in Vancouver is like there’s an oil field or gold mine underneath each lot) and they have many other buildings including a large multi-purpose hall. So really no excuse that they never had the funds to put up an iconostasis.
 
My church doesnt have an Icon Screen so sue me?
My church does not contain an icon screen.The people at my parish dont want one and as far as im concered we are not missing anything. Icon screens big deal who really needs one. For the parishes that have one good for you, thats why so many EC churches are closing because they dont accept changes like this. Theirs nothing wrong with my church and its worship.Also, the Divine Litergys are celebrated as they should be open and with musical accompanyment. Lets think about this for a second if your churches werent founded by people clining to the old ways your church would not have one either.Were having a hard enough time surviving in this world without our worship being covered up.
Ok, I probably don’t belong in this discussion because I’m a Latin Rite Catholic, but for someone who WANTS tradition, you sure do come off as extremely defensive in your subject line and opening post. Why are you trying to defend yourself so strongly? You clearly have no control over your situation, so why are you coming to an internet forum for validation of your attending this Church?

Sorry - I’m just trying to understand your true motivation here.

~Liza
 
Please answer forum members let me hear what you think
It sounds like that parish is a hybrid, not fish nor fowl.

But that’s OK. The liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom is for everyone.

The Byzantine Christian tradition, Catholic and Orthodox alike, is in danger of disappearing. Perhaps some day people will be reading about these things in encyclopedias and wonder what all the fuss was about.

We can rearrange the deck chairs as the ship sinks slowly under.
 
It sounds like that parish is a hybrid, not fish nor fowl.

But that’s OK. The liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom is for everyone.

The Byzantine Christian tradition, Catholic and Orthodox alike, is in danger of disappearing. Perhaps some day people will be reading about these things in encyclopedias and wonder what all the fuss was about.

We can rearrange the deck chairs as the ship sinks slowly under.
Hesychios,

Could you expand on what you mean by the Byzantine Christian tradition being in danger of disappearing? I know the Byzantine tradition is dying in the Middle East, and that secularism is taking its toll elsewhere, but might the trend be reversed (e.g. through a resurgence of popular interest, new conversions)?

One thing I was thinking is that future generations not only will read about Byzantine Christianity in encyclopedias, but they will (hopefully) have access to videos, photos, soundtracks, and, in a few years, the ability to attend a Byzantine Divine Liturgy in the holodeck. Imagine if we had such a treasure trove of ancient Celtic Christianity! 🙂
 
It sounds like that parish is a hybrid, not fish nor fowl.

But that’s OK. The liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom is for everyone.

The Byzantine Christian tradition, Catholic and Orthodox alike, is in danger of disappearing. Perhaps some day people will be reading about these things in encyclopedias and wonder what all the fuss was about.

We can rearrange the deck chairs as the ship sinks slowly under.
Could you expand on what you mean by the Byzantine Christian tradition being in danger of disappearing? I know the Byzantine tradition is dying in the Middle East, and that secularism is taking its toll elsewhere, but might the trend be reversed (e.g. through a resurgence of popular interest, new conversions)?

One thing I was thinking is that future generations not only will read about Byzantine Christianity in encyclopedias, but they also will have (hopefully) access to videos, photos, soundtracks; and, in a few years, also have the ability to attend a Byzantine Divine Liturgy in the holodeck. Imagine if we had such a treasure trove of ancient Celtic Christianity! 🙂
 
Hesychios,

Could you expand on what you mean by the Byzantine Christian tradition being in danger of disappearing? I know the Byzantine tradition is dying in the Middle East, and that secularism is taking its toll elsewhere, but might the trend be reversed (e.g. through a resurgence of popular interest, new conversions)?
I should have qualified that statement. I was thinking primarily of north America.
 
I should have qualified that statement. I was thinking primarily of north America.
Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification. It is possible, but hopefully, through the prayers of St. Nicholas, the ship does not sink. 🙂
 
… as far as im concered we are not missing anything. Icon screens big deal who really needs one. …Also, the Divine Litergys are celebrated as they should be open and with musical accompanyment.
Since you grew up in the Latin Church I assume that this attitude in part reflects a lack of catechesis from the Eastern Church during your time there.

When you say the DL is celebrated as it should be I assume then that there are at least the main holy Icons of the Mother of God and of Christ God marking the locations of the Royal doors and Deacons’ Doors so that at minimum the movement in any out of the Holy Place is represented as it is intended.

There are ECC/OCC whose tradition doesn’t include the Iconostasis but you are in a UGCC parish and the Iconostasis is part of that tradition. There is much wonderful writing on the Divine Liturgy but for the moment maybe you can read through the entire article which I offer a small quote from here.

The invisible made visible is at the core of our spiritual life. As with other elements the Iconostasis both reveals and conceals. Not only does the Iconostasis play an integral role in the mystical representation of the temple we worship in, but the the movements of the deacons and the priests through the Deacons’ Doors and the Royal Doors are also an integral part of the worship, speaking to us in important ways during worship.

I’ve been in conferences or when the DL is served in a Latin Church, where present are only the main Holy Icons of the Mother of God and of Christ God marking the locations of the Royal doors and Deacons’ Doors. It made me feel so bereft, like going into a modern Latin Church that looks just like a protestant church because it’s been so stripped of all the mystical elements.

My tiny parish has only a very basic Iconostasis, which none the less is “solid” when the curtain is drawn across the Royal Doors . Like the great value in our fasting traditions, which some of the UGCC seem to have largely eliminated, this revealing and concealing which the Iconostasis and the movement though its doors provides is also part of a sense of preparation and anticipation, as does fasting, that is so rich in the Liturgy. I also worship in a small Russian Orthodox parish and they have a beautiful more complete Iconostasis which has the full 12 Feasts, and above that a row that includes more saints. Our Holy Icons are of course windows to Heaven and all these wonderful Icons engage us in that mystical relationship in a profound way. Luckily my parish has many Holy Icons around the temple.

I assume your parish celebrated the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy on the first Sunday of Great Lent, including a procession with your Holy Icons. Maybe it would be useful for you to learn about iconoclasm and this great victory over it. When people have suffered and been willing to become martyrs over something in our faith we do well to consider that prayerfully. The courageous hiding of Holy Icons in the former Soviet Union is truly awe inspiring.👍

I’ve never heard of an organ in an EC church, but these forums are an unending source of new information. :eek:
The Holy Fathers envisioned the church building as consisting of three mystical parts. …the church is the earthly heaven where God, Who is above heaven, dwells and abides …St. Simeon the New Theologian, the [Vestibule] corresponds to earth, the [Nave] to heaven, and the holy [Altar] to what is above heaven [Book on the House of God, Ch. 12].
Following these interpretations, the Iconostasis also has a symbolic meaning. It is seen as the boundary between two worlds: the Divine and the human, the permanent and the transitory. The Holy Icons denote that the Savior, His Mother and the Saints, whom they represent, abide both in Heaven and among men. Thus the Iconostasis both divides the Divine world from the human world, but also unites these same two worlds into one whole a place where all separation is overcome and where reconciliation between God and man is achieved. Standing on the boundary between the Divine and the human, the Iconostasis reveals, by means of its Icons, the ways to this reconciliation.
 
First Corinthians 12:12 For as with the human body which is a unity although it has many parts – all the parts of the body, though many, still making up one single body – so it is with Christ.13 We were baptised into one body in a single Spirit, Jews as well as Greeks, slaves as well as free men, and we were all given the same Spirit to drink.14 And indeed the body consists not of one member but of many.

peace
 
The rubrics of the byzantine liturgy require a royal doorway and two deacon doorways; the actual doors are not requisite tho’ advisable, and a curtain is advisable if no actual door, and the curtain encuraged in most recensions even if the royal doors are present… The liturgical rubrics also require an Icon of Christ Pantocrator and a Theotokion.

So, the sanctuary could be set off just by a dais, and the iconostas be legitimately as little as two icons on stands. I’ve seen that done for mission liturgies and for exemplar liturgies celebrated in Roman parishes to educate the Roman faithful.
 
Try to imagine human history through the centuries. The saints had their turn in the stadium of life to play their heart out, make a team effort to win the day. There have been stars, some have dropped the ball. Now they are in the stands cheering you on while it’s your turn on the turf. This is your chance to play well, and sometimes injuries cause players to leave the game early. Sobering when someone is carried out, making one wish to play even harder when a player is removed. Isn’t it better to be the home team, cheered on by the fans? Think of the iconastas as your cheering section, and play the game of your life well. Ask the men and women before you, who know how hot the sun is, what it’s like to play in the rain, and with an injury, to help you now that it’s your turn to make it happen. They are not uninterested by standers but are aching for you to do well.

Does this give you a better perspective?
 
Well their is something I could do about one of the parishes in my eparchy of Toronto has their days numbered its called the church of assention and it has a royal doors. When it closes the eparchy will sent the royal doors away to a new parish.However, my church Holy Cross should get it.I ask all those greek catholics of that eparchy that happen to live in the Toronto area to mention this to the bishop.Please, than my church will be whole again.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top