My Conserns about Catholicism

[sambos671]

I have both criticized and defended the Catholic faith. Though, as time goes by I find myself appreciating the Catholic faith more. I have learned more about Catholic Doctrine in the last year then I ever new growing up Catholic for 15 years. I have been satisfied on many of the questions I had when I first left the church primarily by studying the ECF and the first 7 ecumenical councils. So I’ve come to a point in my journey of faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ where I’m taking deep consideration of Catholicism. For me if I were to return to the Catholic Church it will not so much be swimming the Tiber as so many proudly display here, but a reconciliation of my original faith. However, as you can tell by the title of this thread I still have concerns. I would like to find people to discuss some of them here for a couple of reasons. 1) To obtain views points and information for more thorough review and assist in my decision making process. 2) To ease my fears associated with returning.

The Jews have this concept that was developed probably during the Seleucid period but written and stated as such 300 years after Christ. This is Pirkei Avos or Chapter of our Fathers. The purpose of this aspect of Mishna (oral tradition of the Jews) is to put forth opinions with regard to ethics and morals. This is the Jewish view;

Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it Joshua. Joshua transmitted it to the Elders, the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets transmitted it to the Men of the Great Assembly. They [the Men of the Great Assembly] said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise many students, and make a protective fence for the Torah."

To be succinct this is the same reasoning the Catholic church uses to give credence to its Oral Tradition with exception that added to the above statement we must include direct teaching from Jesus to his Apostles and from them to the entirety of the body of Christ. From the above statement we must subtract the notion that the Catholic Church is creating a “fence” to protect Torah. However, I wonder if it replaced with a similar concept. A deliberateness in devotion to create a fence for the individual Catholic’s Salvation. If I approach Catholic devotion from this perspective I must wonder at Jesus discourse in Matthew 23. We must understand that the Pharisees in Jesus’ day had this same view of protecting the Torah by creating more rules which is behind the discource.

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

Moses’ seat seems to support what the Mishna’s rabbis state with respect to Oral Tradition. But look at his response to it. He seems to think that their efforts caused more bondage than should be the case. Primarily because while “protecting” the law they broke it because

But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

So their devotion missed the more important matters. How many Catholics follow the devotions and participate in the Sacraments are missing the point because they continue in sin by a multitude of ways. Yet they think that as long as they are able to confess during the Sacrament of Extreme Unction they’re good to go? Or like my own family. Confession frees you up to take the Eucharist only to sin some more? Really, how different is this than the Pharisees Jesus berates in his Seven Woes? Have the Catholics followed the same path as these Pharisees? Have devotions replaced the “fence” to protect Salvation? I wonder.

 

[Ag_not]

Thats a seriously good question that deserves a better answer than I can give, but, I think this is the crux:

*But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. *

Seems like He is saying their processes are burdensome for no reason other than to be burdensome. There is no justice mercy or faithfullness in their actions. It’s all fillibuster and doom and gloom. The complete opposite to the message of Love He was bringing, which are found in all the churches sacraments and actions.

Yet they think that as long as they are able to confess during the Sacrament of Extreme Unction they’re good to go? Or like my own family. Confession frees you up to take the Eucharist only to sin some more?

With respect, anyone who thinks like this is not a catholic. That is NOT what the catholic church teaches. I would not like to be doing the paperwork for anyone that went to confession on saturday with the clear intention of sinning monday and thinking no sweat I’ll square it all next saturday. Not on Im afraid.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I have thought about exactly the same issue.

Here are some random thoughts, in no particular order:

Some equivalent to the Oral Torah/Oral Tradition is inevitable. To the extent that people agree on truth the organizations that represent them will certify official truths. You see this in secular law, for instance. You have the constitution and the law and then you also have case law and judicial precedent.

The Catholic Church, in the most general sense, created eveyrthing we have available today, including the Bible. So going to the Bible to argue against Catholicism is circular in the worst way.

The Catholic Church demands obedience to its interpretation of truth. One can accept that the Church is mostly or even always right without submitting one’s brain at the door. Peraonally, I tend to take the Church’s position as a starting point and then explore from there because I find that, for all its flaws, it tends to be the most thought out of all alternatives.

Still, I bristle when I’m told that I “must” believe such-and-such because the Church decided the matter.

 

[sambos671]

I have thought about exactly the same issue.

Here are some random thoughts, in no particular order:

Some equivalent to the Oral Torah/Oral Tradition is inevitable. To the extent that people agree on truth the organizations that represent them will certify official truths. You see this in secular law, for instance. You have the constitution and the law and then you also have case law and judicial precedent.

The Catholic Church, in the most general sense, created eveyrthing we have available today, including the Bible. So going to the Bible to argue against Catholicism is circular in the worst way.

The Catholic Church demands obedience to its interpretation of truth. One can accept that the Church is mostly or even always right without submitting one’s brain at the door. Peraonally, I tend to take the Church’s position as a starting point and then explore from there because I find that, for all its flaws, it tends to be the most thought out of all alternatives.

Still, I bristle when I’m told that I “must” believe such-and-such because the Church decided the matter.

There is comfort in seeing that I’m not alone with my thoughts. I’m with you regarding your last statment though the heart of that does shows my lack of humility. As far as the Bible being writen by Catholics you have a good point with regard to the NT. Yet this is the samething the Jews say with respect to the OT in their Mishna.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

There is comfort in seeing that I’m not alone with my thoughts. I’m with you regarding your last statment though the heart of that does shows my lack of humility.

I do worry about that sometimes but, ultimately, you are responsible for seeking and finding the truth. If you abdicate that to anyone else, even the Catholic Church, you are failing in your first duty as a human being.

That doesn’t mean I distrust others, I know that Catholic dogma represents a couple thousand years of serious thought, only that I reserve ultimate choice of belief to myself.

As far as the Bible being writen by Catholics you have a good point with regard to the NT. Yet this is the samething the Jews say with respect to the OT in their Mishna.

I was being sloppy, of course, I meant NT. So I agree with your observation about the parallel but at the same time, I accept that it is unavoidable. God did not reveal himself to me but to others who came before me. I have no choice but to trust others on the subject. (And I do read a lot of Jewish sources for inspiration on the OT and on theology generally as well as Protestant sources on the NT.)

 

[sambos671]

Thats a seriously good question that deserves a better answer than I can give, but, I think this is the crux:

But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Seems like He is saying their processes are burdensome for no reason other than to be burdensome. There is no justice mercy or faithfullness in their actions. It’s all fillibuster and doom and gloom. The complete opposite to the message of Love He was bringing, which are found in all the churches sacraments and actions.

Yet they think that as long as they are able to confess during the Sacrament of Extreme Unction they’re good to go? Or like my own family. Confession frees you up to take the Eucharist only to sin some more?

With respect, anyone who thinks like this is not a catholic. That is NOT what the catholic church teaches. I would not like to be doing the paperwork for anyone that went to confession on saturday with the clear intention of sinning monday and thinking no sweat I’ll square it all next saturday. Not on Im afraid.

I pray that you are exceedingly blessed this Christmas. Jesus is exciting is he not?

Yes this is not how catholics should think. But my experience tells me this is more the case than not. Though it is unfair since my experience is limited only to those I’ve come in contact with. Many Catholics are like Many Jews born into the faith but not really bought into it. That’s how I see it and I admit I’m biased from my experience.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

Still, I bristle when I’m told that I “must” believe such-and-such because the Church decided the matter.

A friend of mine told me she felt this way about the Church’s
teaching on birth control. “Who are they to tell me what I
and my spouse should do, etc.?” I asked her if she knew
why the Church taught that and she admitted that she
didn’t. I encouraged her to look into it. She did and she was
so excited when months later both she and her husband
began to see the Church’s teaching in a whole new light.
They’d gone on to research some other teachings as well.

We are blessed to have a Church that stands firm on her
teachings; we need to take the time to learn more about
what she says and why she says it.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

A friend of mine told me she felt this way about the Church’s teaching on birth control. “Who are they to tell me what I and my spouse should do, etc.?” I asked her if she knew why the Church taught that and she admitted that she didn’t. I encouraged her to look into it. She did and she was so excited when months later both she and her husband began to see the Church’s teaching in a whole new light.
They’d gone on to research some other teachings as well.

But that’s the way it should work, in my opinion. The Church didn’t (in that case, and in every case I know) just dictate a rule. It presented an argument for the truth of a rule. She investigated the truth claim and was persuaded by it.

Oral Torah works pretty much the same way. Why don’t (observant) Jews eat cheeseburgers? There is a logical reason going back to the OT.

We are blessed to have a Church that stands firm on her teachings; we need to take the time to learn more about what she says and why she says it.

It’s not enough to stand firm. One must also learn, understand, argue and persuade. It’s much easier to stand firm on teachings when they are grounded in truth and that truth can be demonstrated.

 

[notsmart]

Yes this is not how catholics should think. But my experience tells me this is more the case than not. Though it is unfair since my experience is limited only to those I’ve come in contact with. Many Catholics are like Many Jews born into the faith but not really bought into it. That’s how I see it and I admit I’m biased from my experience.

You will never be at a loss to find catholics who don’t either know, or want to know their faith. If you did find a group, where every member was a top notch practicing and knowledge filled person in their community, you will have found a brainwashing cult.

People are free to be human in any community. The actual church teaching on the matter has endured in spite of all these people I mention, that have been around from Judas to your catholic friend down the street.

 

[sambos671]

You will never be at a loss to find catholics who don’t either know, or want to know their faith. If you did find a group, where every member was a top notch practicing and knowledge filled person in their community, you will have found a brainwashing cult.

People are free to be human in any community. The actual church teaching on the matter has endured in spite of all these people I mention, that have been around from Judas to your catholic friend down the street.

I’m sorry I responded to a previous poster. I wasn’t going to initially but wanted to engage in discussion.I really want to discuss the OP in its context. I would like to hear good discussion about it rather than my observation on Catholic behavior. That’s an easy thing to respond to and it side tracts my actual consern.

 

[notsmart]

The rules about the sabbath and working or not working Jesus clears up. IF its done to save a life, then by all means do it.

They just did not realize that the ultimate law of the Torah was to Love. Benedict wrote about this in his book Jesus of Nazereth. In detail, so you may want to read that.

Jesus did not come to take away the laws. Just proper applications were not being applied.

No comparison to catholic/protestant.

You can miss mass if you have a legit reason for instance.
Mass is not optional, and no that is not a rule that is for the sake of making rules or too burdensome.

Edit to add right here:
Which rules are too burdensome? I wish you could be clearer.
To some, things are rules. To others, joy.

 

[Lancer]

*"…growing up Catholic for 15 years."…“I’m taking deep consideration of Catholicism. For me if I were to return to the Catholic Church…”

*G.K.Chesterton noted that you may think that you have left the Catholic Church…but in actuality…you have been let out on a long tether line by the Holy Spirit…and if/when he jerks it…you (with your free will consent) will come back. God Bless and keep seeking the Lord Jesus…in truth and spirit.

Pax Christi

 

[sambos671]

The rules about the sabbath and working or not working Jesus clears up. IF its done to save a life, then by all means do it.

They just did not realize that the ultimate law of the Torah was to Love. Benedict wrote about this in his book Jesus of Nazereth. In detail, so you may want to read that.

Jesus did not come to take away the laws. Just proper applications were not being applied.

No comparison to catholic/protestant.

You can miss mass if you have a legit reason for instance.
Mass is not optional, and no that is not a rule that is for the sake of making rules or too burdensome.

Edit to add right here:
Which rules are too burdensome? I wish you could be clearer.
To some, things are rules. To others, joy.

Yet some catholics indicate the ease with which to lose the gift of salvation. So that devotions are required with proper formulae. Which makes me wonder at the correlation.

 

[notsmart]

Yet some catholics indicate the ease with which to lose the gift of salvation. So that devotions are required with proper formulae. Which makes me wonder at the correlation.

Exactly what do they say one must do if they have fallen into sin?
Its easy to fall into sin sometimes, but to lose your salvation, with proper understanding of what it is, what you do out of love for God, to toss it out makes me wonder if its really “easy” to do.
I wonder if you are talking to a catholic that even has had formation?
Devotions are not the cure for that problem you mention either.
They are good, but surely not going to work in a case where someone has gone so deep they are dangling their salvation to the wind.

Edit to add: Oh, I see you say SOME catholics say…
Whew. Unless they can back that one up, I would say ?

 

[sambos671]

Exactly what do they say one must do if they have fallen into sin?
Its easy to fall into sin sometimes, but to lose your salvation, with proper understanding of what it is, what you do out of love for God, to toss it out makes me wonder if its really “easy” to do.
I wonder if you are talking to a catholic that even has had formation?

I don’t understand your last sentence. I agree with your begining sentiments. But what about your last sentence do you mean that the Catholic I’m referring to is not properly Catechized?

 

[notsmart]

I don’t understand your last sentence. I agree with your begining sentiments. But what about your last sentence do you mean that the Catholic I’m referring to is not properly Catechized?

I edited my post to add the statement that I see you say “some catholics”. That helps.
In a case where a catholic would say something like that, I would like to know what they said to back that up.
There may be something I am not understanding about what was said in context. Because devotions are not going to cut it if the person is dangling their salvation out in the wind.

Maybe you need to tell me if the catholic said that devotions with a formula would help. Maybe you misunderstood the catholic.

 

[sambos671]

I edited my post to add the statement that I see you say “some catholics”. That helps.
In a case where a catholic would say something like that, I would like to know what they said to back that up.
There may be something I am not understanding about what was said in context. Because devotions are not going to cut it if the person is dangling their salvation out in the wind.

Maybe you need to tell me if the catholic said that devotions with a formula would help. Maybe you misunderstood the catholic.

I simplified the discussion. The discussion actually focused on works. The discussion centered around participation to earn ones salvation. I haven’t heard a satisfactory explination of the relationship with works to salvation with regards to operation.

Don’t jump to conclusions just yet. After reading the Catachism I find that Salvation is more holistic from a Catholic perspective than protestant. Protestants point to one point in time for salvation. I was saved when “I called on the name of the Lord” or “believed”. I think salvation occures in eternity past with God’s grace towards me and continues through God offering me faith (which the only reasonable response is acceptance). Works are a result of Gods grace and is a reward for faith which continues my salvation which receipt of the reward of heaven is also Salvation. So salvation includes many things. Yet from my perspective I could not do works unless salvation is working in me. The grace given me also gives me a new nature which is expressed in works. If no works no new nature. A creature acts according to its nature. So like James says faith without works is dead. But I don’t know if this is how the Catholic church views it. How does that particpation work? He seemed to say I have to work to ensure salvation not that work was a result of salvation. See my meaning?

 

[notsmart]

I simplified the discussion. The discussion actually focused on works. The discussion centered around participation to earn ones salvation. I haven’t heard a satisfactory explination of the relationship with works to salvation with regards to operation.

Don’t jump to conclusions just yet. After reading the Catachism I find that Salvation is more holistic from a Catholic perspective than protestant. Protestants point to one point in time for salvation. I was saved when “I called on the name of the Lord” or “believed”. I think salvation occures in eternity past with God’s grace towards me and continues through God offering me faith (which the only reasonable response is acceptance). **Works are a result of Gods grace **and is a reward for faith which continues my salvation which receipt of the reward of heaven is also Salvation. So salvation includes many things. Yet from my perspective I could not do works unless salvation is working in me. The grace given me also gives me a new nature which is expressed in works. If no works no new nature. A creature acts according to its nature. So like James says faith without works is dead. But I don’t know if this is how the Catholic church views it. How does that particpation work? He seemed to say I have to work to ensure salvation not that work was a result of salvation. See my meaning?

Yep. I’d say its (works)** through **love though.

what do you mean by the second part I bolded?
Let me ask you this if you don’t mind.
What would you consider to be a good comparison to burdensome laws for the sake of making laws, as the topic is presented here by you?
Rather than guess it could help to know what they are.
As I said, some see burden where others see joy.
Some see laws that are like a buden that is not easy and a yoke that is not light.
Jesus did not abolish the laws, just the misapplication of them.
So, which ones concern you? Should we all just guess?

 

[sambos671]

Yep. I’d say its (works)** through **love though.
Let me ask you this if you don’t mind.
What would you consider to be a good comparison to burdensome laws for the sake of making laws, as the topic is presented here by you?
Rather than guess it could help to know what they are.
As I said, some see burden where others see joy.
Some see laws that are like a buden that is not easy and a yoke that is not light.
Jesus did not abolish the laws, just the misapplication of them.
So, which ones concern you? Should we all just guess?

Before I answer how does works work with regard to salvation with respect to the Catholic faith? If you die before Extreme Unction do you lose your salvation? What if you missed confession after having sinned though you intended. It wasn’t been released by the Church therefore are you then condemn if then you die? Catholics I’ve spoken to would say yes. What does the church teach with regards to this? If this is the case then this would be too much a burden for me to bare.

 

[notsmart]

Before I answer how does works work with regard to salvation with respect to the Catholic faith? If you die before Extreme Unction do you lose your salvation?"

NO. Who told you that? But, if you can do it, you should want to. If you can’t do it, its not going to jepordize your salvation. God knows if you can do something and refuse, or can’t.
I mean, its a ridiculous premise if you think about it, I have no idea who told you this. Do you realize how many martyrs never had it? How about car accident victims, heart attacks, I mean - you are making this sound obtuse. Hardly anyone would have salvation if that silly rumor had even an ounce of truth to it.

What if you missed confession after having sinned though you intended.