My Debate With Muslims

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Augustine3

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Hi everyone,

I just had a dialogue that turned into a debate with a Muslim on a Muslim forum below.

gawaher.com/topic/735354-why-islam-is-only-true-religion-from-god/page__st__120

My avatar name is Augustine in the forum and the debate started on page 7

I need help from my Christian brothers and sisters. All of a sudden I feel lost, I feel like there is no absolute truth but only subjective truth. I need someone to whack some sense into me. For those of you who have time can you please review the thread and point out some corrections/errors?

I guess what I’m asking for is some encouragement to stay on the right path, to believe Jesus is indeed the way, the truth and the life.
 
Hi everyone,

I just had a dialogue that turned into a debate with a Muslim on a Muslim forum below.

gawaher.com/topic/735354-why-islam-is-only-true-religion-from-god/page__st__120

My avatar name is Augustine in the forum and the debate started on page 7

I need help from my Christian brothers and sisters. All of a sudden I feel lost, I feel like there is no absolute truth but only subjective truth. I need someone to whack some sense into me. For those of you who have time can you please review the thread and point out some corrections/errors?

I guess what I’m asking for is some encouragement to stay on the right path, to believe Jesus is indeed the way, the truth and the life.
I don’t have time to read the thread

and I don’t understand what do you ask from us

tell me what is your question , about Christianity , or islam , and I will answer it.
 
Thanks for your reply. In summary here are some of the issues.
  • The bible has been corrupted
  • The concept of atonement for our sins; Muslims claim an infinite sacrifice by Jesus was not necessary as God is merciful He could simply forgive sins.
Do you mind if I ask you since you are an ex Muslim what were the reasons you left the Muslim faith?

God bless,
 
Thanks for your reply. In summary here are some of the issues.
  • The bible has been corrupted
  • The concept of atonement for our sins; Muslims claim an infinite sacrifice by Jesus was not necessary as God is merciful He could simply forgive sins.
Do you mind if I ask you since you are an ex Muslim what were the reasons you left the Muslim faith?

God bless,
Link didn’t work.

The Bible has not been corrupted. This is the same argument Jehovah’s Witnesses use and so wrote their own translation, interestingly enough, that supports their version of Christianity…There are many resources to discuss the validity of Scripture. Start with the CCC.

Let’s just say Jesus’ atonement for us was not needed. (It was, but for arguments sake let’s say it was not). That doesn’t change the fact that it was efficacious in paying for our sins. And since our sins were paid for, completely, why would a faith want to take back the concept that we could and should pay for them?

This concept is known frequently as Pelagianism. From Wikipedia: Pelagianism views the role of Jesus as “setting a good example” for the rest of humanity (thus counteracting Adam’s bad example) as well as providing an atonement for our sins. In short, humanity has full control, and thus full responsibility, for obeying the Gospel in addition to full responsibility for every sin (the latter insisted upon by both proponents and opponents of Pelagianism).

Stand strong and keep the faith. Good job on seeking and searching your faith.
 
Thanks for posting. Your link didn’t work.

You might want to pull out your Catechism and read about Scripture first, then read on the Trinity. These will strengthen your understanding of the concepts with which your concerns deal.

PAX
 
Thanks for your reply. In summary here are some of the issues.
  • The bible has been corrupted
  • The concept of atonement for our sins; Muslims claim an infinite sacrifice by Jesus was not necessary as God is merciful He could simply forgive sins.
Do you mind if I ask you since you are an ex Muslim what were the reasons you left the Muslim faith?

God bless,
in order for you to understand muslims and their mind set you need to define many things
first , let’s define corruption , does it mean some word here and there was change ? like for example I am going to visit the house , and originally it is written I will visit the house ?

if that is the case , then under the same judgment , the Quran is Corrupted , since there are many different versions of the quran , some have different words , and some readings were ban and were saved to us only through the works of people like ibn nadim . Some if the different can change the meaning of the verse , or the speaker from god for example ‘’ we have created you ‘’ to ‘’ he have created you ‘’ which might be older since the speaker might be muhammad .so then , the question would be which quran , since they ignore that since the late 8th and 9th century , the idea of the quran as the non created word of god emerge(after a hard debate with the rationalist who believe that the quran is created and not eternal , they argue for example did god curse abu lahab (the uncle of muhammad) since eternity !! ), but yet if it is the word of god came down of heaven , then which Koran you want me to use ? ( Which Koran by ibn Warraq is an excellent book in destroying the islamic myth of ‘’ one Quran ‘’ )

what muslims usually believe by corruption of the bible , is according to the quran , Jesus said there would be a prophet after me would be called Ahmed , when muslims (ibn ishaq) went to the gospel , they altered a verse where jesus promiss he will send the holy spirit , and said it was talking about Ahmed , yet when muslims apologist want to check that they didn’t see the word , and they missed that ibn ishaq mistranslated the word , so they started claim that the bible is corrupted because there was no muhammad in the bible !. in recent time , they will propmote the corruption of the bible and use all the liberal and atheist scholar works against the bible , to promote that the quran is safe from error , however once you quote the critisism of Christopher luxenber who showed that the quran comes from Syriac origin with clear evidence ,you will find no honesty in the muslim side !

in conclusion , the story about Jesus in the bible can be verify through the study of language and the jewish culture , and the roman history , and the name of places . even historians for example said that the first christian sang to a their crucified leader as if he was god . yet islam 600 years later (or more) came to deny that jesus died on the cross !!! so whom you want to believe , a historical fact or a book which claim to be divine and came from heaven and contains a lot of fabrication stories from fabrication books and sources that we can trice and expose ( Tom Holland new book is a good example , where he shows that the story of the two horn man in the quran , was stolen from Roman propaganda spread at the time of muhammad , he was alexender the great and the two horn are the horns of amon , and this guy built a dame to save the world from gog and magog ) . ? even philosophically , how can you believe in a god who was responsible in creating the world biggest lie , Christianity . ? why would God and Jesus make people believe in a Jesus like man to be jesus ? it’s important to invoke conspiricy , since the fake religion of islam can’t survive without it like any new cults ( JW , Mormons , SDA… etc) .

as for removing sin I would bring to you hadith (authentic saying of muhammad according to islam ) and we will see who is reasonable

Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians.

Sahih Muslim 6665—Abu Musa reported that Allah’s Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.

now having clear up the way how God of islam is so merciful with this nonsense way .

let’s go back to Jesus . it’s simple and clear , God is just , and he is merciful , being Just and merciful means there should be a way to bring those two things together . if God says don’t break the law or you will be punish , and you break the law then how do god forgive you of he is infinite just ? what I do understand Jesus is the Mediator between us and God , he heal our soul and give us forgiveness , and save us from our sins , thus he is the mercy .

plus , as I said before , I do not need to question my faith based on claims of a fake religion which it divine book was proven to be from Syriac origin ,and contains many stories that can be trace to different legends and myth , or fabrication books .A religion it’s supposed history is nothing but a hoax and is standing on a shaky foundation ( more good readings is Ibn Warraq The Quest for the Historical Muhammad)

as for why I left Islam , I might talk about it later
 
my my, so much rage on that thread. It was very strange, a muslim had made a good point on the Trinity, and so I’d created an account to bring that up. But now it won’t let me view that topic. Very odd.
 
You should try reading some articles written by Sam Shamoon. He isn’t Catholic but he knows both the Bible and the Koran by heart. He is very good at debating and actually travels around the US to debate Muslims on topics such as “Is Jesus God”, the trinity, etc
 
  • The concept of atonement for our sins; Muslims claim an infinite sacrifice by Jesus was not necessary as God is merciful He could simply forgive sins.
He’s right in the fact that the atonement theory is just nonsense bordering blasphemy though. Read up on this.

Besides:

[BIBLEDRB]2 Chron 7:14[/BIBLEDRB]
 
Augustine3 considering Islam coming 700 years after the Ascension of our Lord they can only say that there was corruption in the Bible. Without one proof you should be rest assured we as Catholics have the Truth. So many writings are avaIlable and even before the Bible was put together belief in Jesus was already common place with plenty of heresies were around long before Islam.

May God bless you. I will pray for you.

MJ
 
Hi everyone,

I just had a dialogue that turned into a debate with a Muslim on a Muslim forum below.

gawaher.com/topic/735354-why-islam-is-only-true-religion-from-god/page__st__120

My avatar name is Augustine in the forum and the debate started on page 7

I need help from my Christian brothers and sisters. All of a sudden I feel lost, I feel like there is no absolute truth but only subjective truth. I need someone to whack some sense into me. For those of you who have time can you please review the thread and point out some corrections/errors?

I guess what I’m asking for is some encouragement to stay on the right path, to believe Jesus is indeed the way, the truth and the life.
I was just reading some of the posts and in one of them a user quoted you and gave you a reply. Those replies all come from a muslim site called answering Christianity dot com

Anyway … - something caught my eye which I quoted below. They are quoting Matthew 17 28-29

There is NO Matthew 17: 28 & 29
not true, according to jesus and bible , men shall get wives in paradise for compasation of this world
Mathew 17
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
How many houses, wives, harems, brothers and sisters will the hundredfold consist of in Heaven?
Back in Jesus’ days, “houses” consisted of wives, harems, children, parents and the husband/master.
 
I was just reading some of the posts and in one of them a user quoted you and gave you a reply. Those replies all come from a muslim site called answering Christianity dot com

Anyway … - something caught my eye which I quoted below. They are quoting Matthew 17 28-29

There is NO Matthew 17: 28 & 29
Because its from Matthew 19
*
28And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29
And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.

But Jesus is talking about getting spiritual gifts while on earth when you give up possessions. Also Jesus mentions wife not wives.
Muslims will do well to read in context. The whole passage…but they won’t. Lol.

MJ
 
Thanks for your reply. In summary here are some of the issues.
  • The bible has been corrupted
  • The concept of atonement for our sins; Muslims claim an infinite sacrifice by Jesus was not necessary as God is merciful He could simply forgive sins.
Do you mind if I ask you since you are an ex Muslim what were the reasons you left the Muslim faith?

God bless,
And how is the Quran not corrupted? Can they prove it isn’t? There were several random verses and suras, and several different versions of the Quran itself floating around with a few who claimed to have memorized it, until Uthman ibn Affan compiled it and ordered all other extant versions burnt. Muslims claim that what was eventually included in the Quran was verified by eyewitnesses to the “revelations” and those who had memorized it…which is pretty much how the Gospels were compiled.

Also, this is a big thing to consider: How come God allowed man to corrupt the Torah and Bible, but not the Quran? Why did God only decide on the third try to keep the revelations intact? Is it because Muhammad was so, so special as a prophet that he was the only one whose revelations were worth recording correctly? That seems like some bad planning on God’s part. Also, why would Mary be Moses’ sister in the Quran (I’ve read it - obviously some confusion between Mary and Miriam), but the Torah and Bible consistently hold Mary to be a different person from Mariam? Who are we to trust, the ancient recorders of Scripture or a “revelation” that contradicts it and came hundreds if not thousands of years later from an illiterate man who seems more familiar with folktales about Jesus and the prophets, rather than canon? Are the folktales right and canon wrong?

And, how are sins exactly forgiven in Islam? I remember reading about how all you have to do is ask God to forgive you and He will. But how? How do you know you’re forgiven? If that’s all it takes then how come the emphasis on virtuous conduct and vice so strong in Islamic societies? Do humans not have to forgive people their sins even if God does? Basically what I’m saying is that there’s no clear-cut mechanism. To simply say you ask forgiveness and get it seems awfully, well, simplistic to me and doesn’t take into account the complexities of Islamic salvation. After all, why the stress on exactly correct conduct if all I have to do to make God forget all about it is say, “Forgive me” and I’m set? Why is God so damning and vengeful in the Quran, if he’s also so forgiving and merciful?

Then there is one question I’ve always wondered about: unclean animals, particularly dogs and pigs. I remember a hadith in which an angel refused to enter a house because a puppy was underneath the bed. So God can create a creature and then decide it’s disgusting and humans must not associate with it? How can that be? How can God denigrate one of his own creations and proclaim it unclean?

And there is simply no explanation for Islam’s view of women. The emphasis on what men receive in paradise is at times overwhelming. A man gets rewarded with wives in heaven. Women are just promised to see God and then wander around reciting the Quran. Obviously Muhammad didn’t know that much about women, although he certainly liked them. But that’s a debate for another time.
 
And how is the Quran not corrupted? Can they prove it isn’t? There were several random verses and suras, and several different versions of the Quran itself floating around with a few who claimed to have memorized it, until Uthman ibn Affan compiled it and ordered all other extant versions burnt. Muslims claim that what was eventually included in the Quran was verified by eyewitnesses to the “revelations” and those who had memorized it…which is pretty much how the Gospels were compiled.

Also, this is a big thing to consider: How come God allowed man to corrupt the Torah and Bible, but not the Quran? Why did God only decide on the third try to keep the revelations intact? Is it because Muhammad was so, so special as a prophet that he was the only one whose revelations were worth recording correctly? That seems like some bad planning on God’s part. Also, why would Mary be Moses’ sister in the Quran (I’ve read it - obviously some confusion between Mary and Miriam), but the Torah and Bible consistently hold Mary to be a different person from Mariam? Who are we to trust, the ancient recorders of Scripture or a “revelation” that contradicts it and came hundreds if not thousands of years later from an illiterate man who seems more familiar with folktales about Jesus and the prophets, rather than canon? Are the folktales right and canon wrong?

And, how are sins exactly forgiven in Islam? I remember reading about how all you have to do is ask God to forgive you and He will. But how? How do you know you’re forgiven? If that’s all it takes then how come the emphasis on virtuous conduct and vice so strong in Islamic societies? Do humans not have to forgive people their sins even if God does? Basically what I’m saying is that there’s no clear-cut mechanism. To simply say you ask forgiveness and get it seems awfully, well, simplistic to me and doesn’t take into account the complexities of Islamic salvation. After all, why the stress on exactly correct conduct if all I have to do to make God forget all about it is say, “Forgive me” and I’m set? Why is God so damning and vengeful in the Quran, if he’s also so forgiving and merciful?

Then there is one question I’ve always wondered about: unclean animals, particularly dogs and pigs. I remember a hadith in which an angel refused to enter a house because a puppy was underneath the bed. So God can create a creature and then decide it’s disgusting and humans must not associate with it? How can that be? How can God denigrate one of his own creations and proclaim it unclean?

And there is simply no explanation for Islam’s view of women. The emphasis on what men receive in paradise is at times overwhelming. A man gets rewarded with wives in heaven. Women are just promised to see God and then wander around reciting the Quran. Obviously Muhammad didn’t know that much about women, although he certainly liked them. But that’s a debate for another time.
you are right , there many references in the islamic hadith , and traditions for the lost verses from the quran , even shia muslims to this day, many of them claim that the original quran is lost with their imam !
 
Thanks very much everyone, now I feel a whole lot better. I guess I needed some sense knocked into me!

God bless,
 
Hi everyone,

I just had a dialogue that turned into a debate with a Muslim on a Muslim forum below.

gawaher.com/topic/735354-why-islam-is-only-true-religion-from-god/page__st__120

My avatar name is Augustine in the forum and the debate started on page 7

I need help from my Christian brothers and sisters. All of a sudden I feel lost, I feel like there is no absolute truth but only subjective truth. I need someone to whack some sense into me. For those of you who have time can you please review the thread and point out some corrections/errors?

I guess what I’m asking for is some encouragement to stay on the right path, to believe Jesus is indeed the way, the truth and the life.
Hi brother Augustine, it is me andalusi 😃 the funny thing is you seek help from people who lie to you about islam :rolleyes:

let lok at this one

Nabooru wrote:
There were several random verses and suras, and several different versions of the Quran itself floating around with a few who claimed to have memorized it, until Uthman ibn Affan compiled it and ordered all other extant versions burnt.
that is not truth at all, if you are truthful show us only one version wich is different than the orginal quran and you will prove your claim, but you will never find such thing, beacuse there is no other version of Quran. there is only one version of Quran in arabic, and there is a lot of translation of that orginal quran in arabic, if you think that trabslations are version then you dont know what the version is;)

This is a version

Different versions of Bible
youtube.com/watch?v=ethk2twe4ik

I am a Muslim, and i believe in Jesus more than you all christians toegether here in this forum. So do not think that i am enemy of jesus christ.

peace
 
and i believe in Jesus more than you all christians toegether here in this forum. So do not think that i am enemy of jesus christ.

peace
These two statements are sort of mutual exclusive. Love of Christ will bring humility.
 
Augustine3 considering Islam coming 700 years after the Ascension of our Lord they can only say that there was corruption in the Bible. Without one proof you should be rest assured we as Catholics have the Truth. So many writings are avaIlable and even before the Bible was put together belief in Jesus was already common place with plenty of heresies were around long before Islam.

May God bless you. I will pray for you.

MJ
yes we have proof of corruption of the bible, here is a amazing debate between a muslim and christiaan scholar

watch this, and you will know the truth wich book is real book of God 👍

THE QUR’AN OR THE BIBLE: WHICH IS GOD’S WORD? (DEBATE) Ahmed Deedat VS Doctor Anis
youtube.com/watch?v=DW5TIWkVmmc
 
yes we have proof of corruption of the bible, here is a amazing debate between a muslim and christiaan scholar

watch this, and you will know the truth wich book is real book of God 👍

THE QUR’AN OR THE BIBLE: WHICH IS GOD’S WORD? (DEBATE) Ahmed Deedat VS Doctor Anis
youtube.com/watch?v=DW5TIWkVmmc
The real Book of God is the Bible. I do not have time to go to youtube to watch videos (which may or may not hold the truth). :):knight1:
 
And how is the Quran not corrupted? Can they prove it isn’t?
When I’ve asked the Muslims how they know that it’s not been corrupted, the response is the miracle that millions & millions of Muslims have memorized the Qur’an word for word, even little babies, and this can verified on YouTube. If even one word of the Qur’an were changed most people in the Mosque would immediately recognize it when it was recited in error. This miracle can only be from God, say the Muslims.

Not sure how that could hold up in court of law, but it is impressive.

Back in the day, our Christian ancestors would listen and memorize the Bible verses read during Mass because that may be the only time they would hear that passage for years to come. Wouldn’t it be cool, if we all listened that intently? 👍
 
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