My Debate With Muslims

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ComeHome2Rome said:
When I’ve asked the Muslims how they know that it’s not been corrupted, the response is the miracle that millions & millions of Muslims have memorized the Qur’an word for word, even little babies, and this can verified on YouTube. If even one word of the Qur’an were changed most people in the Mosque would immediately recognize it when it was recited in error. This miracle can only be from God, say the Muslims.

Not sure how that could hold up in court of law, but it is impressive.

Back in the day, our Christian ancestors would listen and memorize the Bible verses read during Mass because that may be the only time they would hear that passage for years to come. Wouldn’t it be cool, if we all listened that intently? 👍
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really ?

one word ?

fear enough

I will not begin with quoting ibn masoud quran which has many different words , nor bring ancient variant back to life for the moment, and I will not talk about a translation from the 12th century to syriac which had 7 more verses not to be found in the now days quran (some are found in islamic tradition)

I will , however, put to examples ,how about comparing M. Ali Quran with Warsh Quran from this time (two traditions that are existing and used by muslim)?

sura 57 verse 24

الله الغني Warsh

الله هو الغني M. Ali

M.Ali has an extra word which is (هو)

what about comparing the Iranian Quran with Yusuf Ali Quran ?

Y A : لا الى الله

Iranian : لا لى الله

this change the meaning from not to god , to certainly to God

now I am just using now days Quran , I am not Using the old readings , I can bring to you many different in the old readings like

now quran sura 2 verse 196

اتموا

والعمرة لله

where in the old reading of ibn masoud

اقيموا

والعمرة للبيت

which mean go to pilgrimage to God , and the other go on pilgrimage to the house!!

or what about Zaid b. ali reading ?

take this for example sura XXi verse 98

حصب

pronounce it with s ha’sab

in z quran

حطب

pronounce it with hard t

hat’tab

now these are just examples and there many differences , I guess the miracle was not miracle after all 🙂 and we can kiss the miracle of the myth of the one word goodbye ( I am still holding back the Syriac interpretation by modern Scholars which embraced the Muslim world ) .
 
Augustine3 said:
Thanks for your reply. In summary here are some of the issues.
  • The bible has been corrupted
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The Bible is clearly not what Muslims think the Qur’an is: the literal Word of God dictated to human beings, with no human (name removed by moderator)ut whatsoever.

But there’s no reason Christians have to believe that the Bible is this, and there are many reasons to believe that the Quran isn’t either.
  • The concept of atonement for our sins; Muslims claim an infinite sacrifice by Jesus was not necessary as God is merciful He could simply forgive sins.
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If you look at sin and atonement in a purely juridical manner and if your primary question is “what could God do,” I think they’re right.

But that’s an inadequate way to look at it.

It’s not just a question of God forgiving sins, but of God redeeming us from the powers of evil, and doing so in a just and reasonable manner rather than through sheer force.

Edwin
 
I won’t speak for Augustin3, but I did it to learn more of the reasons why the muslims believed as they believed and be ecumenical. I also did it to talk to them about the Catholic Church. I was woefully unprepared. Both of how zealous they can be towards their faith as well, as how they were intolerant of anything that contradicted it. I lasted a while there until they’d had enough. I mean that literally, as even though they asked for catholic view points and surprisingly they did. The moment I provided a few they had me banned. In actuality it was my fault because in the websites rules of conduct it specifically mentioned any view point that was detrimental to Islam was punishable by sanctions ultimately leading to being banned. It’s a shame because I stayed in the forum they asked me to stay in the catholic one when asking questions or answering them. I don’t know if that site is still up, but they had logged my address so I wasn’t ever able to log back into the site. Not even to contest it. In the end, I resolved not to bother going to another one unless they stated in the rules to be open to other points of view.

Peace be with you.
 
been on these forums for quite a long time, its easy to debate muslims, just use the search and you will find many links enjoy 🙂
 
While its true that there are many excellent links here to turn too the audience has to be receptive and in my situation they were not. Partly do to the fact that I wasn’t approaching them properly. St. Francis is indeed correct that we should evangelize and sometimes use words. Our actions speak volumes, sometimes more loudly, than any word we may say.

Peace be with you.
 
gmcbroom said:
While its true that there are many excellent links here to turn too the audience has to be receptive and in my situation they were not. Partly do to the fact that I wasn’t approaching them properly. St. Francis is indeed correct that we should evangelize and sometimes use words. Our actions speak volumes, sometimes more loudly, than any word we may say.

Peace be with you.
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I think that is the better way. thanks for sharing in your earlier post your experiences. I am reading a number of robert Spencer’s books and unless we clearly know our beliefs as compared to theirs, you would lose in their forums. Our action towards them as individuals would be best and that can’t be expressed in debate forms over the internet
 
Augustine3 said:
Thanks for your reply. In summary here are some of the issues.
  • The bible has been corrupted
  • The concept of atonement for our sins; Muslims claim an infinite sacrifice by Jesus was not necessary as God is merciful He could simply forgive sins.
Do you mind if I ask you since you are an ex Muslim what were the reasons you left the Muslim faith?

God bless,
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The O.T. predicts what will happen, The N.T. lives out the O.T.

People can say anything they want. People say Jesus does not exist.

Jesus promised us one thing. To go to the Church. The Church is the pilar of all truth. So if you have doubts go to the pilar of all truth. The Church. Seek and you will find.
 
Augustine3 said:
Thanks for your reply. In summary here are some of the issues.
  • The bible has been corrupted
  • The concept of atonement for our sins; Muslims claim an infinite sacrifice by Jesus was not necessary as God is merciful He could simply forgive sins.
Do you mind if I ask you since you are an ex Muslim what were the reasons you left the Muslim faith?

God bless,
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I have another question for you. Muslims say that Jesus did not have to die for our sins. God did. 🤷

God became Man to die for our sins. It is because of that we have eternal life in Christ.

You have to decide who are you going to follow the word of God in the Church, or what Muslims say.

By the way they are not the only ones who deny the CC you know.
 
Brother you have to be very careful when debating Muslims. You must know about your faith first. This would include the Trinity, God’s atonement, the origins of scripture, the early Church, heretical groups etc.

I’ve debated a few in the past. I’ve noticed a few similarities when debating them.
  1. They have a misconception about our beliefs. For example “How can Jesus be God if he prayed to God?” Hypostatic union<-----Jesus being of two natures both God and man.
  2. They will use outside non-Muslim sources to debunk our faith such as atheists and secular scholars. Many of these individuals critic fundamental Christianity, they have yet to study the writings/interpretations of the early Church Fathers who spoke reasonably of our faith.
  3. They think our Bible is corrupt because it was “written” by men. Mohammad supposedly received the Qur’an verbatim. <----They don’t like that the early Church through faith and devotion to God choose which books were inspired. Yet if you look at Church history those books which were rejected were heretical books that came after what Christians initially believed.
  4. Muslims often use the Bible in order to justify their beliefs because without the Bible they can’t support them. What do I mean by that? For example. “Why did Mohammad marry a nine year old girl?” Muslim response. “Why did Joseph marry Mary who was also young?”
  5. Muslims try to gain favor with Allah by obedience. Sometimes this is more outward than inward change. Such as the garments they wear, the food they eat, the way they pray etc.
Islam is a simple religion, believe in One God follow his rules and be rewarded. It doesn’t ask much. To some it may be appealing for this reason and also because Mohammad lived and allowed many earthly pleasures to his followers. Marrying up to 4 wives, conquest, booty, servants, etc.

Islam agrees with Christianity when it’s comparable when it’s not it’s a corruption. The same can be said by us. Islam is Abrahamic when it follows certain principles etc.

It’s quite a claim they make of Judaism and Christianity and Allah when they claim our scripture is corrupted.

The OT believers were just as faithful to their religion or even more than the Muslims are to the Qur’an. The Dead sea scrolls have proven this. Jesus confirmed the OT scrolls. Why would Allah allow his messages to be corrupted? Why would Allah’s previous messengers fail in their task? If they are from Allah they should be able to claim a remnant of people to the truth. Why is it that no document outside from the Qur’an claims has yet to confirm this baseless assertion? Mohammad unlike the OT and NT prophets was always unsure of whether his message was from Allah or not. You would think that the final and last messenger or the true and only God would have no constant doubts.

Clear contradictions of Islam. Muslims assert that Christian leaders or the community conceived the idea of Jesus on the cross. At the same time there are Muslims who claim that Allah made it seem as though Jesus died. Why would Allah bear falsehood to those around the crucifixion? Did we make it up or did Allah lie to us?

Jesus’ warning: Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves. Matthew 10:16
 
I would ask them about apostolic succession. There is an unbroken line all the way back to the 12. So the people writing the books are doing so in accord with a faith that was well known. They were writing in about 100, correct, so they’d have been taught by the 12, and they’d likely been annointed by the 12, so they’d be sure of what the faith was, and also be unlikely to be able to “get away with” adding or changing things to promote a viewpoint that wasn’t a part of the community.

If you were writing a biography of george washington, it would be hard to insert something into the biography (let’s say that we’re trying to make him a prophet in the lines of Isaiah), and have him say that America would become Mormon. Well, you’d have a hard time convincing the people who worked with him, or even those people’s kids. It’ would come to light that the man was a good church going christian, that he was never heard to utter a word about a coming religion, and that his speeches tended to speak of the Bible as the final revelation. It would be hard to put anything in George’s mouth that wasn’t in line with what the man said and did in the presence of people who knew him. So if it’s hard with Washington, it should be harder with Jesus. If the early apostles did not think Jesus was God, then the gospel writers would have been killed for blasphemy.
 
I have considered debating Muslims. What are some good books to read? For that matter is their a complete list of all of the early church fathers writings?
 
studentlove said:
Brother you have to be very careful when debating Muslims. You must know about your faith first. This would include the Trinity, God’s atonement, the origins of scripture, the early Church, heretical groups etc.

I’ve debated a few in the past. I’ve noticed a few similarities when debating them.
  1. They have a misconception about our beliefs. For example “How can Jesus be God if he prayed to God?” Hypostatic union<-----Jesus being of two natures both God and man.
  2. They will use outside non-Muslim sources to debunk our faith such as atheists and secular scholars. Many of these individuals critic fundamental Christianity, they have yet to study the writings/interpretations of the early Church Fathers who spoke reasonably of our faith.
  3. They think our Bible is corrupt because it was “written” by men. Mohammad supposedly received the Qur’an verbatim. <----They don’t like that the early Church through faith and devotion to God choose which books were inspired. Yet if you look at Church history those books which were rejected were heretical books that came after what Christians initially believed.
  4. Muslims often use the Bible in order to justify their beliefs because without the Bible they can’t support them. What do I mean by that? For example. “Why did Mohammad marry a nine year old girl?” Muslim response. “Why did Joseph marry Mary who was also young?”
  5. Muslims try to gain favor with Allah by obedience. Sometimes this is more outward than inward change. Such as the garments they wear, the food they eat, the way they pray etc.
Islam is a simple religion, believe in One God follow his rules and be rewarded. It doesn’t ask much. To some it may be appealing for this reason and also because Mohammad lived and allowed many earthly pleasures to his followers. Marrying up to 4 wives, conquest, booty, servants, etc.

Islam agrees with Christianity when it’s comparable when it’s not it’s a corruption. The same can be said by us. Islam is Abrahamic when it follows certain principles etc.

It’s quite a claim they make of Judaism and Christianity and Allah when they claim our scripture is corrupted.

The OT believers were just as faithful to their religion or even more than the Muslims are to the Qur’an. The Dead sea scrolls have proven this. Jesus confirmed the OT scrolls. Why would Allah allow his messages to be corrupted? Why would Allah’s previous messengers fail in their task? If they are from Allah they should be able to claim a remnant of people to the truth. Why is it that no document outside from the Qur’an claims has yet to confirm this baseless assertion? Mohammad unlike the OT and NT prophets was always unsure of whether his message was from Allah or not. You would think that the final and last messenger or the true and only God would have no constant doubts.

Clear contradictions of Islam. Muslims assert that Christian leaders or the community conceived the idea of Jesus on the cross. At the same time there are Muslims who claim that Allah made it seem as though Jesus died. Why would Allah bear falsehood to those around the crucifixion? Did we make it up or did Allah lie to us?

Jesus’ warning: Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves. Matthew 10:16
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I agree with above for the most part.

The thing is there was no Quran nor Muslims factually at the time of the Bible. It’s a long battle if you want to get through, first Muslims must be open to hear what Christians say.

However the latter (we as Christians) are so divided it will be a hard sell to tell Muslims that they have a misunderstanding when we ourselves are having disagreements. They’ll just point that out any time you start to make sense:p

A one united Church is the only answer to Islam.:gopray2:

MJ
 
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