My discussion of the Ontological Argument

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There surely is a bigger one out there somewhere. So they decide to worship the Greatest Mountain Wherever It May Be, The Ultimate Mountain.
This analogy shows that the concept of “greatness” is so elusive that it is meaningless.

One tribe may attribute “greatness of a mountain” to its height. Another tribe may see it differently, they may call the “bulk” of the mountain to be indicative of “greatness”.

Since it is obvious that the tallest peak may happen on a skinny mountain, and huge volume may be in a smaller one, these two concepts of “greatness” cannot expected to yield in one particular mountain.
Is not the Universe the Greatest Conceivable Being?
No, because the Universe is not a “Being”. The concept of a “being” is usually reserved to a conscious entity.
 
Personally a true Christian has no need of an ontological argument, which amounts to nothing more than religious vanity, so St. Thomas Aquinas believed.
Nope. This doesn’t square with my experience. My formative years were the 1950’s-70’s, a time when God was pronounced dead. All the “isms” were at their apex. Marxism, atheism, postivism, materialism, relativism, scientism… It was tough time to be a person of faith. Maintaining faith despite a lot of “evidence” to the contrary was not easy.

While we all have a faith burden to carry, God, in his mercy, helps us. I encountered the OA at a time when I really needed it. Consider it a crutch, if you will, but a necessary one for me. Not all of us are endowed equally with the gift of faith.
 
Mornin Ateista,

The problem of defining ultimate greatness is indeed elusive, and because we dealing with something ultimate we necessarily are dealing with the highest level of abstraction.

Something ultimately or unsurpassably great, when compared to any other being in terms of any attribute, must come out on top. Udderwise it wouldn’t be unsurpassable.

So I can offer this procedural definition for greatness. X is our GCB. Take any other being, Y. Compare X to Y in terms of attribute A. X must be greater than Y in terms of A.

Does this make sense so far?
 
Hi Dame,
An implication of an all-inclusive God is that it is impossible for any being to exist outside of His experience. So it would seem that God is along for the “ride of life” of necessity. Anything that He creates will exist within Him. As I said a while back, some parts of Scripture are suggestive of this. In Acts Paul tells the Athenians that “we live and move and have our being in God.” In Col. 1 he makes even stronger statements along these lines.
I have heard God being referred to as “the ground of our being”. I may not actually be drawn to worship over this, but…it seems a lot more spiritual and…spookily interesting than anything else.

How right, or correct have people interpreted their religion?
 
So it doesn’t matter what A we are talking about. X must always be greater than Y in terms of A. Height, mass, beauty, goodness, you name it.

But can we say that all possible attributes can be maximally present in one being? Well there is one being, the whole of reality, that must possess all attributes to the ultimate degree. Nothing exists outside of it. Granted, if our thinking is limited by materialist assumptions, that being is not conscious, but still it must true that this being possesses all value whatsoever.
 
So it doesn’t matter what A we are talking about. X must always be greater than Y in terms of A. Height, mass, beauty, goodness, you name it.
The problem is in the naming…

The problem is in the definition…

What does this argument do for you? How does it shape your faith>?
 
Mornin Ateista,

The problem of defining ultimate greatness is indeed elusive, and because we dealing with something ultimate we necessarily are dealing with the highest level of abstraction.

Something ultimately or unsurpassably great, when compared to any other being in terms of any attribute, must come out on top. Udderwise it wouldn’t be unsurpassable.

So I can offer this procedural definition for greatness. X is our GCB. Take any other being, Y. Compare X to Y in terms of attribute A. X must be greater than Y in terms of A.

Does this make sense so far?
Sure, if such a being exists. The problem is that some attributes are physical, some are phsychological and some are simply abstract.

And some attributes are necessarily contradictory. You cannot have something that both “bigger” than anything else, and “smaller” then anything else. And if you choose “big” as the sign of “greatness”, then you already displayed a personal preference. Small and compact may be “greater” in some sense than “huge and loose”.
So it doesn’t matter what A we are talking about. X must always be greater than Y in terms of A. Height, mass, beauty, goodness, you name it.

But can we say that all possible attributes can be maximally present in one being? Well there is one being, the whole of reality, that must possess all attributes to the ultimate degree. Nothing exists outside of it. Granted, if our thinking is limited by materialist assumptions, that being is not conscious, but still it must true that this being possesses all value whatsoever.
Well, yes. If one accepts that the Universe is everything, then you have a greatest conceivable “thing”. But the Universe is not homogenous, it contains purely physical, inanimate “stuff” and it contains life. You use the word “value” in your post. Value is not a simple attribute in and by itself.

Value is the abstact evaluation of something by a conscious being for whatever purpose that being has in mind. For example: a piece of strangely shaped stone can have artistic value for someone, and useless for a primitive hunter, who only looks for a big stone to kill an animal for food.

Also you enumerated “height, mass, beauty, goodness”. But you left out “evil”, “bloodthirstyness”, “pain”, etc.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Goodness can only be evaluated from a subjective point of view.

I am afraid that the concept of “generic” greatness is just as elusive as it has been before. And it stays that way.
 
Hi Dame,
What does this argument do for you? How does it shape your faith>?
First off, it vindicates faith in some kind of God. When you think about it, that is no small thing. It establishes some kind of pantheism as the minimum. Now that is miles away from Christian theology, but, hey, it’s something.

As you’ve discerned, I’m not one of those that tries to make the OA prove the whole enchilada. Alvin Plantinga does, but I’m not smart enuff to figger out whether the argument works. Most reports are negative.

But once theism, even very minimal theism, is understood to be the only option, then other classical, a posteriori, proofs come into play. As you’ve observed, plain vanilla pantheism isn’t very satisfiying, but what justifies belief in any transcendent reality beyond the material? Arguments such as the design and cosmological arguments point in that direction.

But note that, as I’ve been discussing with Good Fella and jf, logical argument only gets you so far. Reason can only demonstrate a slice of the divine reality. We need revelation and faith for the rest.
 
Hey Ateista,
Well, yes. If one accepts that the Universe is everything, then you have a greatest conceivable “thing”. But the Universe is not homogenous, it contains purely physical, inanimate “stuff” and it contains life.
OK, we’ve established that the Universe is the GC"T". It contains all that exists. And tis true that it is a composite being. It is hereogenous and composed of many different kinds of things. But what is inescapable, I think, is that the Universe is a concrete whole. It is no mere aggregation.

Imagine a circle which is the Universe. Outside the Universe is absolutely nuttin (remember that the Universe is all that exists). Inside are many different circles representing all the different parts or fragments of the Universe.

Now, being inclusive of all that exists, it includes the concretization of any maximal attribute. Biggest object. It’s in the Universe somewhere (ignoring that the Universe itself must be the biggest object). Tiniest object–it’s in there somewhere. So no matter what the trait or attribute, the full spectrum of its concrete mainfestation is present in the cosmic whole.

And all the bad stuff is there besides–all the evil, nastiness, tragedy, death, etc.
 
And all traits which depend on subjective assessment are present in the Cosmic Whole. So it really doesn’t matter to our definition that there is no necessary agreement whether an object is really beautiful or not. All objects of art are included in the Cosmic Whole and so are all subjects who are making the judgment of aesthetic value.

And it doesn’t matter that some attributes are contradictory or polar opposites. They are all included in the Cosmic Whole or GCT.
 
So this is why I think GCB (GCT) makes sense. And if it makes sense, the inescapable conclusion of the argument is that God exists.
 
I have heard God being referred to as “the ground of our being”. I may not actually be drawn to worship over this, but…it seems a lot more spiritual and…spookily interesting than anything else.

How right, or correct have people interpreted their religion?
Panentheism (one step “up” from pantheism) holds that our being is indeed grounded in the Cosmic Whole. It is where our being comes from. This is consistent with the Thomistic idea of our being “participating” in the divine being.

Regarding how correctly people interpret their religion, Hartshorne argues that Christian theology, by reason of its dependence on Greek thought, has badly misinterpreted the nature of God. I am referring back to my earlier discussions with MOM or Good Fella. Traditional Christian theism holds that God is Timeless, Changelss, Perfect… These attributes all have to be re-thought and re-defined in Hartshorne’s panentheism.
 
But I am a Christian, not a panentheist. I do think that Hartshorne and Whitehead and Voskuil are on to something though, and time will tell whether some of their insights make their way into Catholic Christian doctrine. Norris Clark and Mark Felt, both Jesuits, are exploring a Whiteheadian-Thomistic synthesis. I’ve tried reading Felt’s book. Quite beyond me at this time, I am afraid.
 
So this is why I think GCB (GCT) makes sense. And if it makes sense, the inescapable conclusion of the argument is that God exists.
Why would it make the conclusion inescapable? I simply don’t see it. Would you elaborate on this?
 
I have framed the OA this way:
  1. The statement “God is the GCB” makes sense.
  2. There are two modes of existence for any being, necessary and contingent.
  3. Necessary existence is greater than contingent existence (the Anselmian principle from Prosl. III)
  4. Therefore only necessary existence is compatible with greatness.
  5. Therefore God necesarily exists.
 
  1. The statement “God is the GCB” makes sense.
This has been the subject of our most recent conversaton.
  1. There are two modes of existence for any being, necessary and contingent.
These are the only two logical possibilities. Any disagreement here?
  1. Necessary existence is greater than contingent existence (the Anselmian principle from Prosl. III)
Seems intuitively obvious to me that something which must exist (cannot not exist) is greater than something which possibly could not exist.
  1. Therefore only necessary existence is compatible with greatness.
  2. Therefore God necesarily exists.
 
  1. The statement “God is the GCB” makes sense.
It does not make sense, because it is self-contradictory.

The GCB is defined as a “being” (or conscious entity) who contains all the attributes to a maximal degree. Since the set of attributes contains mutually exclusive ones, like “red” and “not red”. or “good” and “not good”, to have mutually exclusive attributes to any degree (much less the “maximal” degree) is a logical contradiction. Therefore the concept of GCB is a self-contradictory concept and as such it does not make sense. Case pretty much closed. The rest is just icing on the cake.
  1. There are two modes of existence for any being, necessary and contingent.
Existence is not an attribute. But even if it were, the GCB would have to be both “existent” and “non existent” in order to have all the attributes. Also would have to be both “necessarily” and “contingently” existent, which is nonsense.
  1. Necessary existence is greater than contingent existence (the Anselmian principle from Prosl. III)
See objection above.
  1. Therefore only necessary existence is compatible with greatness.
See objection above.
  1. Therefore God necesarily exists.
Well, there is a web site, which brings up hundreds of “proofs” for God’s existence. It is the first hit if you type in “therefore god exists” into Google. And it is funny. 🙂
 
Hey Ateista,

God bless you and yer tribe.
Therefore the concept of GCB is a self-contradictory concept and as such it does not make sense. Case pretty much closed. The rest is just icing on the cake.
Well, guess that’s it then…But wait! I seem to recall some recent conversations about all-inclusiveness and how I thought that concept would address how one being can possess all traits maximally, even those which are polar opposites, mutually exclusive, etc… Please read my earlier posts on this page and the one previous.

Also, “being” does not necessarily imply consciousness, the way I am using the word. So substitute “thing” if you want.
 
Hi Fella,

I haven’t given up on reason when it comes to proving God’s existence. Aquinas thought it possible to reason one’s way to the realization of God’s existence. And of course so did Anselm.

As Pope Ben sed in his Regensburg speech, God in his nature is reasonable. I think this must be the predominant Catholic view. Incidentally, there is a very good discussion of this in Chesterton’s Father Brown mystery, The Blue Cross, I think it was called.
By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.
Hebrews 11, 3

I don’t deny that a person can assent to his religious belief by the use of reason. After all, in keeping with the theme of Pope Benedict’s address at the University of Regensburg, that religious faith is reasonable, there can be no contradiction between faith and reason. Faith is not simply superstition nor the abandoment of reason. Nonetheless, reason must take the back seat behind faith. In his idealism Descartes ironically attempted to prove God’s existence by first doubting God exists. If he could have succeeded at proving God’s existence by converting God to a pure and definite object of thought communicated directly to the human mind, as any finite, created phenomenon could be, then we’d no longer be in any need of faith. Tragically Descartes’ bold method spawned a modern universal skepticism in the existence of God in academic circles. Modern man has attempted to disprove God’s existence by the use of reason. Alas, a great multitude of people have been convinced by the arguments of atheistic philosophers by ignoring or rejecting the articles of our faith. Paul wisely teaches us to “understand” by faith. Only through faith can we truly come to know of God’s existence by recognizing him in his creative works.

By saying that “God is reasonable”, Pope Benedict means that God is rational as opposed to irrational. He does not will that any religious faith be propogated in the world by the use of violence and coercion. To lead someone or a group to one’s religious faith, he should use the rational approach which relies on the powers of reason and speech. Faith essentially is a persuasion of a set of religious beliefs.

Aquinas rejected Anselm’s argument, for, not unlike Kant, he didn’t believe that a person can argue directly from the existence of mental concepts in the human mind to the existence of God to which these mental concepts correspond. Aquinas’ “Five Ways” of knowing the existence of God are more indirect attempts at demonstrating the reasonableness of God’s existence by moving from the seen to the unseen, from the visible effects of God’s creation to the Creator. We may infer God’s existence from the conditions of our outward experiences of the physical order of things in this world. Trying to ‘ontologically’ prove the existence of ‘someone’ who exists beyond time and space by directly applying the formal principles of deductive logic with reference to immanent mental concepts is a different story. It amounts to nothing more than proceeding up a blind alley.

God has indirectly revealed himself to us by the effects of his creation, the moral law of human nature directly experienced inwardly through the medium of our conscience, and the human abilty to reason and will - coupled with his direct revelation through the law and the prophets fulfilled in Christ. The Church does not teach that God can be proven to exist as can any natural phenomenon by an empirical deductive approach. But the so-called proofs of our Christian philosophers “can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason” (cf. CCC, # 31-35). Reason must be kept subordinate as an aid to our faith. We must not expect it to be able to eventually supersede faith and thereby nullify it.

In the spirit of Vatican ll, the favour towards the indirect ways we come to know of God’s existence through our spontaneous perception of cosmic order, Pope Benedict has this to say with regard to the theory of evolution:

“Ultimately it comes down to this alternative: What came first? Creative Reason, the Creator Spirit who makes all things and gives them growth or Unreason, which, lacking any meaning, strangely enough brings forth a mathematically ordered cosmos, as well as man and his reason. The latter, however, would then be nothing more than a chance result of evolution and thus, in the end, be meaningless…We believe that at the beginning of everything is the eternal Word, with Reason and not Unreason.”

I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.
2 Maccabees 7, 28

PAX :harp:
 
  1. There are two modes of existence for any being, necessary and contingent.
To which Ateista responded: “Existence is not an attribute. But even if it were, the GCB would have to be both “existent” and “non existent” in order to have all the attributes. Also would have to be both “necessarily” and “contingently” existent, which is nonsense.”

No. 2 is not saying mere existence is an attribute. That is the mistake of the first formulation of Anslem’s argument in Prosl. II. Rather, it is positing two modes of how a thing can exist. It is not existence vs non-existence, it is necessary existence vs. contingent existence.

So I agree that existence is not an attribute or predicate. It therefore follows that non-existence isn’t either.

Hartshorne takes care of your concern about the GCB being both necessary and contingent by distinguishing between the divine essence, existence and actuality. Essence: What kind of existence is being defined (unsurpassable). Existence: That the defined kind of existence is actual in some way or an other. Actuality: Howthe existence exists at some particular moment.

God is the unique being who has both necessary and contingent aspects. He necessarily is actualized some way or another. He must act in some contingent way or another.
 
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