My Discussion with a Cafeteria Catholic (Why do they stay in the Church anyways?)

[spiritblows]

Maybe I can work that question into the conversation somehow. Or, I can ask her what she DOES agree with. There must be something positive that she can say. I’ll try and steer her to more positive aspects of our faith for her. Otherwise, I’m going to want to avoid talking to her.

I must be naive because I figured that Eucharistic Ministers were pillars of the faith, not dissenters. I figured that the cafeteria Catholics were more minimal in their involvement.

 

[Penny_Plain]

spiritblows:

I figured that the cafeteria Catholics were more minimal in their involvement.

Surprise!!!

Some of us “cafeteria Catholics” are even right here on CAF!!!

I think the tone of this thread is much more positive than the other threads I have seen that simply bash “cafeteria Catholics” and express hope that we would just go away.

You guys would classify me as a “cafeteria Catholic.” I disagree with (to use one example) the Church’s teachings on artificial birth control.I do not believe the Church is infallible on matters of faith and morals.

I know what the teaching is. I have read Humanae Vitae. I’m a cradle Catholic. One of my parents was Catholic; the other Protestant. I went to a Catholic grade school and had good catechesis all along. The huz is Catholic; we are raising our three boys Catholic. I am not involved in parish life simply because we travel for a living and don’t have a “home parish” for most of the year. We go to Mass every Sunday that we can.

Why do I stay? It’s my home. It has brought me close to God since I was old enough to begin to understand who God was. Do I think it’s perfect? No. But it’s awfully good.

 

[aurora77]

spiritblows:

I must be naive because I figured that Eucharistic Ministers were pillars of the faith, not dissenters. I figured that the cafeteria Catholics were more minimal in their involvement.

I thought the same thing–why would someone be actively involved in an organization that they don’t support? I sure wouldn’t. Like Penny said, the Church is her home, maybe your co-worker feels the same way. Just be the best witness to Catholicism that you can. Since this is a work relationship, you may not want to say much. I know that may sound cowardly but you have to work in this environment with her.

 

[St.Eric]

Maranatha:

I believe it’s because the Real Presence of Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity is in the Eucharist. How can she walk away from that? We are all struggling with our own problems. It looks like she needs a good example and lots of prayers. Be glad that God set this large loaf of bread in front of you. I will pry for you and her.

But, “those who receive the body and blood of Christ unworthily, they eat and drink judgement upon their head…”

I am not saying that your friend is necessarily doing this but if one disagrees with so much of Church dogma and is unwilling to submit themselves, it is hard to beleive that they are still in communion with Rome…It is one thing to have a heart that is willing to submit to Christ and his church and have weak flesh that ocassionally falls…it is quite another thing to have a rebellious heart and be willfully disobiediant to Christ and his Church.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Penny Plain:

Surprise!!!

Some of us “cafeteria Catholics” are even right here on CAF!!!

I think the tone of this thread is much more positive than the other threads I have seen that simply bash “cafeteria Catholics” and express hope that we would just go away.

You guys would classify me as a “cafeteria Catholic.” I disagree with (to use one example) the Church’s teachings on artificial birth control.I do not believe the Church is infallible on matters of faith and morals.

I know what the teaching is. I have read Humanae Vitae. I’m a cradle Catholic. One of my parents was Catholic; the other Protestant. I went to a Catholic grade school and had good catechesis all along. The huz is Catholic; we are raising our three boys Catholic. I am not involved in parish life simply because we travel for a living and don’t have a “home parish” for most of the year. We go to Mass every Sunday that we can.

Why do I stay? It’s my home. It has brought me close to God since I was old enough to begin to understand who God was. Do I think it’s perfect? No. But it’s awfully good.

I’d just like to say that coming from an Evangelical background, where no one knows what the heck you’re supposed to believe at any given moment, and most would (secretly) love to have someone stand up and say “Here, this is what is TRUTH and this is what is ERROR”, and be able to trust that it was so, don’t take the Church’s authority for granted. It is a blessing! God knew what he was doing! It was the Wisdom of the teachings of the Church, especially concerning birth control and all the ills that would be brought into our culture because of it, that convinced me of the Infallible Magisterium. There’s nothing like it in any other part of Christendom.

God Bless,
Jeanette L

 

[Penny_Plain]

aurora77:

I thought the same thing–why would someone be actively involved in an organization that they don’t support?

It’s not binary. It’s a lot more complicated than support/don’t support.

Some – many – things I support. All? Nope.

 

[LittleDeb]

spiritblows:

Maybe I can work that question into the conversation somehow. Or, I can ask her what she DOES agree with. There must be something positive that she can say. I’ll try and steer her to more positive aspects of our faith for her. Otherwise, I’m going to want to avoid talking to her.

I must be naive because I figured that Eucharistic Ministers were pillars of the faith, not dissenters. I figured that the cafeteria Catholics were more minimal in their involvement.

Here’s one way to work it into the conversation at the same time taking the burden off your shoulders. I’ll call your co-worker ‘Sheila’ because I had a co-worker years ago by that name with very similar behavior.

Just say, “You know Sheila, I was reading something online the other day and found a Catholic woman who used to believe some very interesting things about the Catholic Church. She used to think that The Church was totally wrong about contraception. She thought that The Church belittled women and that contraception was good for them. Then she did research for her own health and found out all sorts of stuff her doctor never told her. Now she is such a huge fan of the benefits of NFP that she and her husband give talks about it being an incredible blessing to their marriage! Her name is LittleDeb and she’s on the forums at Catholic.com…”

We’ll take it from there. One of the reasons she is probably sounding off to you is because she can. Her frustration at not being able to change The Church and not allowing herself to change is causing her pain. You are an outlet for her pain. Since she has an “assertive personality” (I might say aggressive) her venting sounds like it has a bull-horn attached to it. Leaving The Church would cause her more pain. As you have seen there are people who are not in full union with The Church but stay because it’s home. Hospital for sinners is more true here than anywhere else. I avoided The Church during those years of mine, but I never really left. Maybe she will heal sooner by getting the treatment she needs because she is right in the middle of it.

 

[eleusis]

Maranatha:

I believe it’s because the Real Presence of Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity is in the Eucharist. How can she walk away from that? We are all struggling with our own problems. It looks like she needs a good example and lots of prayers. Be glad that God set this large loaf of bread in front of you. I will pry for you and her.

Excellent!!

I would add that the woman is clearly fighting with a spirit of rebellion, she is unaware or ignoring our call to obedience. Her acts are sedicious and should be brought to her priests attention because she is sowing discontent…or just ignore her and pray for her.

 

[Jocelyn]

Penny Plain:

Surprise!!!

Some of us “cafeteria Catholics” are even right here on CAF!!!

I think the tone of this thread is much more positive than the other threads I have seen that simply bash “cafeteria Catholics” and express hope that we would just go away.

You guys would classify me as a “cafeteria Catholic.” I disagree with (to use one example) the Church’s teachings on artificial birth control.I do not believe the Church is infallible on matters of faith and morals.

I know what the teaching is. I have read Humanae Vitae. I’m a cradle Catholic. One of my parents was Catholic; the other Protestant. I went to a Catholic grade school and had good catechesis all along. The huz is Catholic; we are raising our three boys Catholic. I am not involved in parish life simply because we travel for a living and don’t have a “home parish” for most of the year. We go to Mass every Sunday that we can.

Why do I stay? It’s my home. It has brought me close to God since I was old enough to begin to understand who God was. Do I think it’s perfect? No. But it’s awfully good.

Thank you for your very honest response. I respect that Penny. I bet there are plenty of so called cafeteria Catholics on this board, but they are scared to say so because they don’t want to be judged for being cafeteria Catholics. The Catholics who claim to follow the Church 100% (every single teaching) think that they are better then the average “cafeteria Catholic” but are they? I was brought up Catholic, but I was also taught that we are not to judge or think we are better than others. Are we not all sinners? I believe that we are all on different levels spiritually, and that is ok. Not everyone is the PERFECT Catholic (like some on this board claim to be), but still even if one is not the perfect Catholic they are still home.

Do I consider myself the perfect Catholic. Of course not. I am a sinner. I have struggles. I am flawed. But the Catholic church is my home and it will forever be my home. The rosary is my prayer and it will forever be my prayer. The Blessed Mother is my Mother and she will forever be my Mother. I am Catholic to the bone. It is the very root of my being, THANKS BE TO GOD!! And my children will be raised Catholic.

So even though I may be judged by some as a cateteria Catholic because I am not perfect, I am here to stay because it is my home.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I do not believe that most people, in choosing the verbal shorthand of “Cafeteria Catholic”, apply it to “regular, flawed Catholics”.

Nor do I necessarily believe that those who support the Catholic Church “100%” look DOWN on those who do not.

I can understand, given contemporary society’s extreme “sensitivity” to “diversity”, that a simple statement by a Catholic of “I support my Church 100%” might be PERCEIVED by someone of “sensitivity” as being arrogant, prideful, etc., because, sadly, there are many people today who equate someone who does not agree with them as being someone who hates them, misjudges them, is hypocritical. . .

That tactic is very common, and very easy to fall into, until everything degenerates on both sides into finger pointing, name calling, hurt feelings, and a crystallization into viewing oneself as a poor VICTIM and the other a BULLY.

IMO, to clarify, I first consider every person as a person, and love them as a brother or sister, child of God. I take that as a given, but perhaps some do not, or perhaps some do not realize that this is a Catholic “world view”, even of those “stubborn” posters on EITHER SIDE.

Do I struggle with Church teachings? I’m getting older. In my case, I struggle LESS now than I did. For many of my contemporaries, I perceive, they struggle MORE.

Many of the once most outwardly devout are now against almost everything “Catholic” they ever did or believed. Many of those who were once indifferent at best or hostile at worst are now fervent defenders of practices they once railed against.

I’d like to say that it because of some great insight or great action or holiness that I’ve “left the Cafeteria”. . .but it’s not that, just as it is not because of some great insight or great action or holiness that others have JOINED the Cafeteria.

What I found, for me, was the key was obedience. In this society, the idea of total, humble obedience, especially to some “flawed” organization, is greatly derided and discouraged, because we are all “individuals” and are taught to question, to choose, in EVERYTHING in life. Why should “church” be different? Listen to those who condemn Christians as “sheep”, 'robots", “medieval”, and especially “hypocrites and bigots” and you see that today’s god is the trinity of ME, MYSELF, and I.

I commend Catholics, “cafeteria” and otherwise, in that they recognize the real Trinity of Father, Son, and Spirit. It’s not surprising that we all struggle between “this world” and the “world to come”. It’s hard to go back to the basics when “progression” and change SEEM so RIGHT because they are seen EVERYWHERE.

May God help and guide us.

 

[aurora77]

Penny Plain:

It’s not binary. It’s a lot more complicated than support/don’t support.

Some – many – things I support. All? Nope.

I definitely agree with you. However, did you read the list of things this woman disagrees with? There were so many things and among them she says that the Church hates women. If I felt like the Church “hated” me I most likely wouldn’t be there, much less be active. That’s how I’m looking at it, not that she’s a bad person or anything, but just surprised b/c her behavior is different from my own.

 

[grotto]

I think you have encountered a person that can be damaging to your livelihood. You have to think hard about her revealing statements and see how she displays her opinions - as you have said she is influental and involved at church to the level of participating as the lead Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist. Her reputation describes her as “gnarly” which I would take to mean - “difficult”.
In most instances of interaction with others she can push her way around and probably has instinct for those most easily pushed.

As you need to be interacting with her in your employment, use a heavy dose of caution. Don’t get caught in the position of letting her abuse the teaching of the Church, the priest who is the teacher, and those living their life in the Faith. If caught, and you are silent in response then you feel you failed the defense of your Faith. First, identify in your mind what she is stating is wrong, correct it to yourself and ask your Guardian Angel to help you have words or actions that will reflect the Truth. Use this method and you will know you have not failed to defend but have taken the best possible approach to the dilemma.

If this person attacks a loving Catholic family over their number of children and lack of finances, etc. just softly praise one of the children’s beautiful qualities even if you make it up - like " such a sweet girl, she has beautiful hair and eyes", “have you seen the art work that kid can turn out?”, “they are so far above average”,
“they are such a loving family”. Trust me, she will soon shut up!

As to why she continues to be involved in the Catholic Church it may be that her Guardian Angel is pulling on her as hard as possible although she is pushing away. She enjoys being in the shade of the “selfish pride” tree so the rotten fruit is spoiling her.
Praise someone she knows also as “really successful and never bragging”. There is always Hope. Limit your exposure.

 

[mary_bobo]

aurora77:

I definitely agree with you. However, did you read the list of things this woman disagrees with? There were so many things and among them she says that the Church hates women. If I felt like the Church “hated” me I most likely wouldn’t be there, much less be active. That’s how I’m looking at it, not that she’s a bad person or anything, but just surprised b/c her behavior is different from my own.

At Mass one recent Sunday our priest said that the movers and shakers in our Church are women–furthermore, we have beautiful stained glass windows, about 18 of them, and all but two are women saints. The feeling about the church not liking women goes back to the “old” days when the boys got to go in first in processions and church devotionals.

If one wants to be a cafeteria Catholic, one can always find things wrong with the church. Dare not the teachings of the Church get in the way of how they want to live their lives.

 

[cheddarsox]

Why do they stay? Why do they leave? What a quandry it all is.

I left the Catholic Church 20 years ago because I did not believe all the doctrine. I was told if I did not believe it all, then I was not in communion and could not receive communion. If the body of Christ was witheld from me…why stay? If those around me, who were uncomfortable with my “issues” regularly invited me to “just leave” if I wouldn’t accept it all…why stay?

So…I left. And then, oddly, people berated me for leaving. “Why not stay and work it out?” they asked. “Why not stay and work on fixing the problems from the inside? Like St Francis?” and “How could you leave the Eucharist?”

so…I could stay, receive the Eucharist and get reamed for doing so when I was not in full communion, and reminded how I was bringing judegement upon myself for receiving improperly.

Anyway, no matter what one does, one will be raked over the coals for it.

People tell me I left to serve myself. They will not believe it was the doctrine, not the discipline I left over.

It is more comfortable to judge what is in anothers heart and mind, than it is to sit down and deal with real human struggle and honest doubt. No one asked me “What is really going on with you?” they just shook their heads over me, or told me how disappointed they were, or announced to me what my problem was.

Jesus poured out his blood for the world, while we were doubters, sinners, betrayers, deniers. Now the church keeps it safe in a tabernacle. The church has set itself up as the narrow gate. If there is salvation in receiving the Eucharist…I will not know it, for it is denied to me.

Maybe the woman stays because she refuses to be denied what Christ himself died to give her. Like the woman presenting herself again, and again to the judge, not giving up. Like the neighbor pounding on the door in the night. You may see just another “Cafeteria Catholic” but Christ knows who she is, completely. God can use even the broken vessels to accomplish His purpose.

cheddar

 

[Penny_Plain]

aurora77:

I definitely agree with you. However, did you read the list of things this woman disagrees with? There were so many things and among them she says that the Church hates women. If I felt like the Church “hated” me I most likely wouldn’t be there, much less be active. That’s how I’m looking at it, not that she’s a bad person or anything, but just surprised b/c her behavior is different from my own.

It’s interesting, isn’t it? Yet something’s keeping her in.

It gets complicated really quickly. I don’t think the Church “hates” women or divorced people or the children some of our priests molested. But the human institution could act with more justice and compassion to all of them and, for that matter, to all of us.

Maybe she stays because she thinks she hopes that will change. Or she thinks she can change it. Or maybe she’s bitter because she doesn’t think it’s going to change but she doesn’t have anywhere better to go. There’s really only one way you’re going to find out.

Lovingly, without the intention to start a fight and realizing you’re going to hear a lot of things you disagree with, do the following:

Ask her.

Then listen to the response without arguing.

Might be interesting. Certainly will be educational.

 

[proudnifi]

I believe that salvation is more complex than simply receiving the Eucharist. Even if one is not in full communion with the Church right now, if one believes that the Church is the best place to be, then stay. Respecting the rules and not receiving the Eucharist does not preclude salvation.

 

[anna1978]

Maranatha:

I believe it’s because the Real Presence of Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity is in the Eucharist. How can she walk away from that? We are all struggling with our own problems. It looks like she needs a good example and lots of prayers. Be glad that God set this large loaf of bread in front of you. I will pry for you and her.

Yes, this sounds like my MIL: she thinks exactly like this girl (and is pro-choice and in favour of euthanasia and IVF too!), BUT what keeps her in the Catholic church is the Real Presence and the fact that she truly believes this is the church Jesus Himself founded ! But…she doesn’t agree one bit with ‘His personnel/footmen’ as she calls it

Anna x

 

[Tristan_daCunha]

I am currently reading a book by Lonni Collins Pratt, a cradle Catholic who left the Church at 16. She become a well-known evangelical author, but returned to the Church at age 40. She has interesting things to say:

I’ve talked to hundreds of Catholics about why they are Catholic. Most of us are Catholic by birth.We are not leaving the Church because we have always been, and still are, Catholic. Period. Simple. That’s it.The crisis beckons us to consider why we remain Catholic. This is a call to adult faith, it is a call to responsibility.
…
Choosing Catholicism means choosing to live in community as well. Not that you have to join a monastery or small cell group of some sort (not a bad idea though). Ours is simply a desperately and beautifully communal religion. You can be a Lutheran on your own. You can be a Presbyterian all by yourself. They are sola religions, me and Jesus got our own thing going. Me and Jesus (and probably my Bible) got it all worked out. Well, if I am Catholic, I don’t get to work it out by myself without thinking of others and what the Church says.
…
As Catholics we have agreed to abide by authority outside of ourselves. I am not the final say of what happens in the Catholic Church. Abiding by that authority doesn’t mean that I agree or like it or stop trying to change things. It does mean, however, that I don’t walk away. Unity doesn’t mean that we have to agree. It doesn’t even mean we have to like each other. It does mean that we are walking under the same banner, and we might have to sacrifice ourselves for what is bigger than either of us.

It’s My Church and I’ll Stay If I Want to: Affirming Catholicism
pp. 49, 56, 57

 

[spiritblows]

Thanks for the replies. I think I got a lot of good advise here. I’ll fill you all in if I talk to this gal again, and see how the conversation goes.

 

[Whalljim]

spiritblows:

I don’t know why God would send this person to me. I’m not very good at defending Church positions, I don’t plan on challanging her opinions because I think it would be wise to totally stay on her good side, since she can be a testy and difficult co-worker I’ve heard. She has a lot of senority over me, and I’ve heard through others that she can be overly assertive.

Heh heh.

As to why she stays, who knows. But…

God did what he did for a reason. Maybe just faithfully practicing in front of her will show her a way to just obey. ‘Preach the gospel all the time…’

As to her being a superior and talking to her directly, it depends on the type of person she is. My manager and I have very different views on religion ( oh boy do we have fun on the da vinci code and abortion ) but while the conversation can get heated, I have every confidence that he is honorable enough that it would never affect me at work. He’s a good guy. Some people can do this, some can’t.

Jimbo