My disillusioned marriage (UPDATE)

[Augusta_Sans]

Liberanosamalo, you raise some good points for discussion.

So how was mom?

She was a stay-at-home-mom who made both of us children feel as though we were her reason for living. She went back to work when we were 14 and 12, but because she was the high school counselor, she was actually MORE present in our lives than when we went to school and she stayed home. She was loving, but more stern–probably because she was the primary caregiver (and thus the primary disciplinarian). Nothing was ever more important than us. When I threw a grocery-store temper tantrum, she would leave the grocery store to take me to the car to “cry it out” in private, ready to give a hug as soon as I needed it.

Next?

Where do you go from here? YOU start some counseling to figure out why you are still so attracted to the “dangerous guy” to the point you can’t see the safe guy as a sexual partner.

You mean the counseling that I’ve been in and out of for the past 10 years? Insurance pays for it, so I go, even when I don’t have a big issue to sort through. No counselor has ever drawn this conclusion though, so perhaps I need to start with a new counselor and do a little self-diagnosis to get the ball rolling?

You need to figure out what real love is then.

Actually, throughout both discussions, a few people have said things from which the logical conclusion is: I do not love him. I thought that I would start to feel love if I acted lovingly, but after a month the only feeling I feel is shame for pretending to be something I am not.

Your suggestion that I propose we start having sex now, as strangers, is a little weird. But I do follow your Catch 22 explanation, and I suppose I personally have nothing to lose. Maybe I should just treat him like a “big boy” and let him decide whether or not to have sex with me. I guess if I just lay it all out there–what I am feeling (and what I am not feeling) and say “so do you wanna have sex?” then it’s not my fault if he ends up getting hurt. I know that isn’t a very delicate way of saying it, but is that basically what you’re going for?

 

[Augusta_Sans]

it sounds like such a huge struggle for you to love ‘‘adam’’ as he loves you. And he does deserve someone who will truly love him, they way he loves you.

That is EXACTLY why I left him and filed for divorce. Literally WORD FOR WORD what I felt and expressed. So you see why I think I’m back to square one? I am exactly where I began. No one has grown in this process. I didn’t call it “choosing to love” when we first married, but I chose to marry someone I wasn’t fully “in love” with, thinking that “love would come” once we were married and were acting as a married couple. I did it for awhile, failed, divorced. Now I’m back to square one where I’m choosing to “remarry” someone I am not fully in love with, thinking that love will come if I just keep treating him lovingly.

If that isn’t square one, I don’t know what is.

 

[GoBison]

Augusta

I think that you are still headed in the right direction towards reconciling. Your Retro weekend just finished up and you probably had way too high of expectations going into the weekend thinking that once you got out everything would be great. Keep with the follow-up weekends and let it takes its course.

I do think that you love your husband but your just are not attracted to him sexually and you feel it as a loss of love. He is a nice guy and you are trying to force yourself to feel that so-called spark. What you may be missing is a loss of excitement for your husband since he is always there for you and you know that he will always be there for you.

If you want to give your husband a list of things he can do tell him to read “No More Mr Nice Guy” by Dr Robert Glover. Don’t worry about the title it isn’t what it sounds like. I think once your husband reads the book he will relate to it and it may help the both of you.

You on the other hand may just need to relax and let God do his work. You seem so set on being at that point where you want to have those feelings for your husband that it is just making it harder to have those feelings.

 

[Augusta_Sans]

If you want to give your husband a list of things he can do tell him to read “No More Mr Nice Guy” by Dr Robert Glover. Don’t worry about the title it isn’t what it sounds like. I think once your husband reads the book he will relate to it and it may help the both of you.

You on the other hand may just need to relax and let God do his work. You seem so set on being at that point where you want to have those feelings for your husband that it is just making it harder to have those feelings.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. I’m definitely NOT good at “relaxing.”

I am definitely recommending that book to him. I know he’s eager to be involved in the process, but doesn’t know where to begin. (Similar to cleaning the house–he wanted to help, but wouldn’t lift a finger until I wrote out a checklist for him. Now every time I visit the house it is SPOTLESS.)

 

[Liberanosamalo]

There is a game…

An Enchanting Evening.

It’s for couples. Probably at a game store in an adult section.

Try it. Maybe you both need to find a way to discover each other in a kind of playful “pick a card and read the direction” way.

As long as you keep him at arm’s length, that’s where he’s going to stay. He’s afraid to approach because you tell him “Get back!” That’s been his experience for years.

So now you say he’s not going to change his behavior without a checklist from you. Like that’s a bad thing. He’s been respecting your boundaries.

Taking care of you.

Loving you.

Being available at the drop of a hat.

He suffered through your relationship with the incredible sex guy, which must have hurt him horribly.

And still he’s standing by you.

It’s time for you to give something back besides conversation to see if there is anything more to work with here.

You BOTH need to learn to seduce each other! Sex is not something one person does to the other. It’s something TWO people do WITH each other. And it takes time and practice. And you gave him neither. For reasons you seem afraid to ask yourself. Why you couldn’t give a good and decent man who put you first at least as much as you gave the losers and womanizers. You want him to chase you and pursue you. Like the other guys did.

Well, then try it. Go over to his place and tell him if he can seduce you, he can have you.

And if it doesn’t work, and he can’t figure out how to start your engine tonight, you can ask him to try next week. Give him time to read up on the subject. Sounds like he’s not as experienced as you. And it is profoundly unfair for you to expect him to have the same approach as all the players and womanizers out there who have had too much practice.

What is frustrating is to watch you claim that you can’t find love in your marriage even as you’re tripping over it.

C’mon… take your “friendship” to the next level!

Because seriously… if you try to have sex and it doesn’t work, and you decide you don’t have enough “love” you can say you tried everything. And you can just go file for an annulment. And maybe they’ll give it to you both and your husband will be able to find someone else to take care of. It won’t be fair for you to expect to divorce him and for him to spend the rest of his life living as a monk and doing your finances and talking to you on the phone when you are lonely. Please, for you own sake, don’t find out that you “love” him after he becomes truly unavailable to you and you then want him back.

 

[whatevergirl]

That is EXACTLY why I left him and filed for divorce. Literally WORD FOR WORD what I felt and expressed. So you see why I think I’m back to square one? I am exactly where I began. No one has grown in this process. I didn’t call it “choosing to love” when we first married, but I chose to marry someone I wasn’t fully “in love” with, thinking that “love would come” once we were married and were acting as a married couple. I did it for awhile, failed, divorced. Now I’m back to square one where I’m choosing to “remarry” someone I am not fully in love with, thinking that love will come if I just keep treating him lovingly.

If that isn’t square one, I don’t know what is.

Okay, I see…I know what this ‘‘feels’’ like…albeit, you and I of course have different details to our marriages. I was ‘‘in love’’ when I married my husband, but I wasn’t so ‘‘in love’’ with marriage. Marriage was always portrayed to me in a very strange way, growing up. My parents seemed to have a solid one, but they died early on for me, and my sister and BIL (now divorced) seemed to fight non stop…and so, in my formidable years, I didn’t have a great role model for marriage. I kind of had to stumble and figure things out along the way. Love and marriage take sacrifice. But, I do love my husband…I do wish to be intimate with him. I think the fact that you don’t have those ‘‘core’’ feelings, I’m just not 100% sure that I can tell you to keep trudging on, because again, at the end of the day–you and your husband deserve to be loved and TO LOVE. I can offer you my prayers though…I of course, have been rooting for you and your husband to reconcile, and live together again…and yes…ride off into the sunset. But, before you move back in together, make sure you do so for the right reasons…and that you really believe you CAN love this man. It won’t be fair to either of you, to merge back together, and you’re not ready for what it’s going to take. (you know this, I’m just repeating the words in your mind) lol

Here is something that helped me greatly, and maybe it will help you. **Try to see your husband through the same lens that Christ sees him. ** You will move out of square one, I promise you, if you do this. *

 

[Persuader]

That is EXACTLY why I left him and filed for divorce. Literally WORD FOR WORD what I felt and expressed. So you see why I think I’m back to square one? I am exactly where I began. No one has grown in this process. I didn’t call it “choosing to love” when we first married, but I chose to marry someone I wasn’t fully “in love” with, thinking that “love would come” once we were married and were acting as a married couple. I did it for awhile, failed, divorced. Now I’m back to square one where I’m choosing to “remarry” someone I am not fully in love with, thinking that love will come if I just keep treating him lovingly.

If that isn’t square one, I don’t know what is.

I don’t think you should remarry him legally without being sure. I read your recapture and update, and it seems to me like this could become a disaster. If you cannot make yourself love him, I don’t see why you are still in the relationship. Maybe he could get an annulment based on the fact that you never really loved him. It seems like you love the idea of him and what he represents, but you do not love the person. You need to love the person.

I am no catholic, so maybe you should just ignore me, but as an outsider this sounds like a very strange relationship.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

He’s very much a “caretaker” in our relationship. He deals with the finances (even after the divorce!) and is always available when I need someone to talk to or spend time with. I do feel very alone in my quest to restore love in our relationship, but I don’t know what to ask from him and I know he’s not going to change his behavior without any suggestions from me. I do think that, if I could give him a CONCRETE CHECKLIST, he would be a more active participant, but it’s my job to do all of the legwork.

Yes and yes. I think you really captured where he’s at.

Thanks. I feel like I’m exactly where I was a few years ago. I know my husband is a good man (I always have) and I know that our marriage is a great partnership (it always has been). I do not feel love, despite acting lovingly (I took a few years off from acting lovingly, but prior to that I did put in a few solid years of earnest effort). I feel like it’s entirely my responsibility to find love in our marriage (he’s loved me from Day 1 and has never faltered.)

That is something I haven’t explored much. He feels love. I do not feel love. So therefore, WE do not feel love. But, because he’s in love, he’s already done his part. It’s my responsibility to figure out my half of the deal, and I feel very hopeless in my efforts.

He needs to be a willing participant or all of the work that you do will be for not. I also think that he needs to read Holy Sex as well.

Time for him to be a man and try to do what he can to win you back. This is not a one way street and I am sorry to say that if you try to do this all on your own (that is you put forth the majority of the effort) you are going to fail. Marriage takes 3!

 

[Augusta_Sans]

Liberanosamalo, even when you anger me you inspire me. I think I am going to have a conversation along these lines. Maybe once the sexual hormones are flowing I’ll be able to relax enough to just enjoy it without worrying so much about what it symbolizes.

 

[whatevergirl]

*Adding on to Liberano’s advice too, Augusta…

There IS something very ‘‘sexy’’ for lack of a better word, about a dependable, honest, loyal man…really. I suggest playing that ‘‘game’’ that Liberano suggests above, because then you can say…okay, we gave it a good honest try, and it’s just not there…

OR

Hey now…! We gave it a good honest try and …woohoo…it IS there!

God’s best for you and your husband through this process. *

 

[GoBison]

When is the last time you got together and didn’t talk about your relationship? I don’t see what could be more of a killer of sexual energy than talking about them not being there. Leaving the relationship talk to your dialouging. Outside of that have fun with him. Look up how to flirt and do it. When you are in the adult section pick up something to wear and wear it when you are just sitting around. No expectations of anything happening that night but I bet it will get both of you thinking. Expectations lead to resentment whether with yourself or with him. If you go out and buy the game and it leads to nothing then where will you be? I don’t think that a game right now would be a good idea there would be way too much pressure on both of you and it would not end they way you hoped for.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Actually, throughout both discussions, a few people have said things from which the logical conclusion is: I do not love him. I thought that I would start to feel love if I acted lovingly, but after a month the only feeling I feel is shame for pretending to be something I am not.

Yes, you do love him. Everything you say about him indicates love, admiration, friendship, respect.

You feel shame… for what? For “pretending” to be something you’re not? So treating someone with love and respect is “pretending?” It should be how you treat everyone.

I repeat my earlier assertion… you have it all backwards. You did NOT love those other guys. You did not treat them with love and respect. You used them for physical passion and pleasure even though the relationships were temporary, unstable and prone to negativity. You are finally treating a man with real love and respect. It’s like someone who spent their whole life wearing sweatpants having to get used to wearing a suit. It will take a while to get used to treating someone else with love and as if they have value.

So both your parents are great people. You were loved and valued when you grew up.

So then your starting questions for a new therapist is “When and why did I start equating romantic love with negativity and drama? Why do I confuse drama with love and passion? Why do I think because the good guy doesn’t give me drama that I don’t love him? Why do I want the bad boys still?”

They say a car is conditioned by how it’s driven for the first 500 miles. Your earliest boyfriends maybe instilled a pattern of drama and sinfulness that warped your perception of what real love is.

And at heart, that’s a spiritual problem too.

Real love is sacrificial. Like your husband who has stood by you for years although he doesn’t get any nookie out of it.

I don’t think you can sit around indefinitely with the status quo waiting for feelings to fall out of the sky on your head like snow.

Maybe you and your husband should give yourselves a deadline by which you will either move in together or separate for good, to get an annulment and then you let him go forever. Don’t keep him around. Let him move on. But the rules of that game are: You don’t get to try to reconcile ever again. That’s not fair to him. And you have to accept the fact he will be taking all his good qualities and sharing them with another woman.

Since you seem to find men attractive who spend their time with other women when they should be with you, how about imagining your husband on a date with someone else. Now is the time for you to pursue the emotions and feelings you’d have if you encountered them laughing over a glass of wine at a local restaurant or dancing cheek to cheek, or walking hand in hand through a department store. And if he’s not the kind of guy to do those things, maybe he’d happily learn. And unless you’d like the idea of some other woman teaching him how to be a fantastic lover (he wouldn’t need to be taught how to balance the budget, or be a considerate man, or patient, or to clean a house.) then maybe YOU need to teach him a few tricks.

I promise you. From what you have said about him, if you can’t find him loveable, there are many many women your age who would! Because they are truly tired of jerks and would like a lovely man to start a family with.

Now go hold his hand and unbutton his shirt or something. Play strip poker. Something. Anything different than what you’re doing now! Go!

 

[GoBison]

So then your starting questions for a new therapist is “When and why did I start equating romantic love with negativity and drama? Why do I confuse drama with love and passion? Why do I think because the good guy doesn’t give me drama that I don’t love him? Why do I want the bad boys still?”

I think your answer will be when she became a woman. You could get the rest of that answered from Mens are from Mars Women are from Venus. Might get some flack for saying it but a lot of woman like bad boys and the intrigue and drama. Most women don’t like “Nice Guys” that will give up the everything for them they may say so but deep down they want the excitement as well.

 

[Augusta_Sans]

And unless you’d like the idea of some other woman teaching him how to be a fantastic lover (he wouldn’t need to be taught how to balance the budget, or be a considerate man, or patient, or to clean a house.) then maybe YOU need to teach him a few tricks.

…

Now go hold his hand and unbutton his shirt or something. Play strip poker. Something. Anything different than what you’re doing now! Go!

First: SO true. Second: LOL.

GoBison: I agree that the “failed relationship” talk is always on the tip of our tongues. It’d be good to do some activities where we could just have fun. We’ve started going to dinner and movies together again, and those are always good nights. I hate to say it, but maybe we need to deplete the bottles of wine gathering dust on the wine rack and just see where things go.

 

[GoBison]

I hate to say it, but maybe we need to deplete the bottles of wine gathering dust on the wine rack and just see where things go.

Why not? Nothing wrong with drinking a little wine and forgetting about all the pressure you are putting on each other to make this work and to have those feelings. Relax, have fun and let God do all the other stuff.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Go get the game.

Open the wine bottle.

Light a fire.

Draw a card. They say things like “What quality of your spouse do you find more endearing?” “Kiss a part of your partner’s body you haven’t kissed before or kissed in a long time.” “Describe a place you would like to tryst with your partner.” And others that are basically little challenges to get into your partner’s physical and mental space in loving and gentle and fun ways as you move around the board. The winner hits the finish line first.

(Or maybe everyone wins. )

 

[Augusta_Sans]

They say things like “What quality of your spouse do you find more endearing?” “Kiss a part of your partner’s body you haven’t kissed before or kissed in a long time.” “Describe a place you would like to tryst with your partner.”

It sounds like a saucier version of Retrovaille dialoguing.

 

[Rita_De_C]

Hi Augusta,
I am reading all your threads and totally feel your pain. I wish I had some really good advice to offer you, but I am not sure I do. I have been in your situation many times before. I have felt like a liar, and that I was just pretending. Sometimes it takes a while for the feelings to catch up to our actions. It takes lots of work, and for me, sometimes it feels like way too much. One thing that has helped me is that I think it pleases God when I show love, even when I don’t feel it. Feelings and emotions change, but when you are feeling them, they are so intense. Right now, I think maybe you believe that if the feeling is right, it will give you the security you need proceed. In many ways, you are trusting in the strengh of your feelings for security. Everyone assumes that our gut feelings are always right. Is this really true? What about the woman hopelessly in love with the abusive man, it seems like all her instincts are saying LOve, love love, but maybe it isn’t love Maybe her gut feelings are telling’ her that this unavailable man is safe and familiar, because he is unavailable. I would like to say more, but I gotta go. I will pray for you.

 

[Augusta_Sans]

Okay, an update: he stopped by my apartment to dialogue with me. After we were done I broached the subject of sex. I asked him how he felt about the idea of having sex with me, and he expressed some fears: (1) That he won’t be good enough (I told him I fully expected he would require lots of practice–with a wink!) (2) That I would get pregnant (I reminded him that I’ve been doing my NFP charting so there are quite a few “safe days.”) (3) That he would get hurt (I told him it was a possibility, that this has been my greatest fear as well.)

…however, I told him that I realized he was a grown man and can take care of himself (and that obviously, I’ve done a shoddy job at taking care of him lately anyway.) I let him know that I was open to sex if he was willing to take the risk. He seemed uncertain, but at least I planted the seed and let him know that he won’t be rejected if he tries.

 

[Augusta_Sans]

What about the woman hopelessly in love with the abusive man, it seems like all her instincts are saying LOve, love love, but maybe it isn’t love Maybe her gut feelings are telling’ her that this unavailable man is safe and familiar, because he is unavailable. I would like to say more, but I gotta go. I will pray for you.

So much of this is true, and really hit home for me. The man I dated after the divorce was an alcoholic, emotionally abusive, and on two occasions physically abusive. It took awhile for me to realize just what an idiot I was for continuing to date him.

Tonight’s mini-date was good. Lots of kisses and hugs, though I think we need to break out of comforting each other and try to relax and have fun. Maybe sometimes alcohol IS the answer.