My doubts (God complicates things)

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Hey everyone,

I have always struggled with the idea of God, but this is what has always thrown me off the most and I was hoping that someone could help with it. (forgive me if someone or many people have already posted with this same problem).

Simply put, it seems to me that all the arguments for the creation of the universe could also be applied to the creation of God. Namely that if the universe has all of these traits or whatever it must have been created. That sort of thing. To me, it solves nothing.

Basically, it just adds the question: how’d god come into being?
to which people generally say that he’s always existed and had no creator. I see no reason why the same could not be said about the universe–that is, cut out the middle man, so to speak. (yes, i know that scientists know that the universe had a “beginning” but that was basically just the start of time. For all we know, the matter had always been there.

Thanks!

P.S. I really am hoping to be convinced.
 
Hi new_User,

I am a cradle Catholic who struggled with the existence of God in the middle of a spiritual retreat in a Catholic girls high school. It was now or never for me. But that’s a story for some other time.

I do hope that someone who is familiar with the books of Frank Sheed (the title may have been Theology and Sanity) answers your question.

There is a twist to the argument that if the universe has all of these traits, it must have been created, that is, have some kind of source. It isn’t enough for the source to have the traits of the creation. The key is that the source has the ability to create. The odds are that the source with the ability to create has always been there. If the source and/or the ability was not always there, then something else had to create the source and/or ability. This may look like an unending trail backwards so take a break and relax a bit before reading on.

The universe around you is the product or result of the ability to create. And you are the most amazing result. But your existence depended on the existence of your parents etc. Thus, the unending trail backwards had to stop someplace. The only way that the unending trail backwards could have stopped is that there was a creator source with creative ability that did not have to depend on a previous source. This complete independence increases the odds that the source, which is known as God, has always been there.

My guess is that the nagging question about how God came into being will always be there. On the other hand, when one looks at the creative ability, including the ability to reason, of humans and then compares it to the results of the creative ability of the Creator, knowing everything about God seems impossible – unless the Creator calls us to Himself to share Himself with us for eternity. You are listed as Catholic so I don’t need to go further about the total love of God for us humans. John 3:16 & 17

Personally, I do my own thing with the created/Creator thing. Being in Alaska a few years back, I was overwhelmed by the beauty of the wilderness. How did all that beauty, especially the colors, come into being. I think about all the technology, all the benefits of science and modern medicine and realize that all that was created by lots of very smart people. While people have blended and/or separated colors to make endless new so to speak colors, no one has created an absolutely, individual, non-related, totally new color. Now, if all the smart people can’t create color without any relationship to the existing colors, Who caused color in the first place?

Unequivocally accepting the existence of a Creator Who… is one way to deal with your struggle. Shift your search to deeper learning about the Creator’s relationship with His Creation, especially you. View your charity to others as an extension of the Creator’s charity to a fallen people. The Holy Eucharist will keep you occupied for the rest of your life.

Do you see what I am driving at? Sometimes, one needs to accept not being able to understand a specific question for the time being. Sometimes we need to wait until time turns into eternity with God Himself. In the meantime, one concentrates on the great truths we already know.

P.S. I’ve learned to never underestimate the power of God. He just may, at some point, give you an insight as to how He could have always existed. It might not be the whole answer that you are looking for. Nonetheless, I pray that whatever insights come your way will give you comfort.

Blessings,
grannymh
 
new_User1357246 said:
Simply put, it seems to me that all the arguments for the creation of the universe could also be applied to the creation of God. Namely that if the universe has all of these traits or whatever it must have been created. That sort of thing. To me, it solves nothing.

Basically, it just adds the question: how’d god come into being?
to which people generally say that he’s always existed and had no creator.
Click to expand...
God is that which is the ground of all being. That is one definition of God. It is reasonable to suppose that ultimately there must be a “sufficient” explanation to why anything and all things have come in to being. Also, such a being must explain itself. We do not have to have the answer to why such a being exists because that in itself would be a meaningless question, akin to asking what lies outside of space. We need only show that an ultimate being must exist some where along the line inorder to sufficiently explain all things, and this being must wholly transcend the nature of our universe.
new_User1357246 said:
I see no reason why the same could not be said about the universe–that is, cut out the middle man, so to speak. (Yes, I know that scientists know that the universe had a “beginning” but that was basically just the start of time. For all we know, the matter had always been there.
Click to expand...
Science to me seems to make it clear that Matter exists with time and began with time. The The universe shrinks to an infintesimal point, beyond which, all dimesions cease. When Scientists say that the universe began to exist, they mean that there was nothing prior to the beginning of the Universe. Given that scientific fact, it is not meaningfull to speak of matter outside of time since they are all part of the same package.

Cosmological arguments

There are 2 basic propositions and 1 good question, that all good cosmological arguments are based upon.
  1. Out of Nothing comes nothing.
  2. Anything which begins to exist needs a sufficient cause.
  3. Why is there anything rather then nothing?
The Universe began to exist; therefore there must be a sufficient cause. From this point on, we know that what ever caused the universe, it cannot itself be made of the Universe, because the Universe (space/Time/Energy/Matter) began to exist. To say that the Universe caused itself, makes no sense, since it would have to exist before it existed; which is absurd since there was no before. The Universe cannot come out of nothing, because there is nothing for it to come out of. Also; we must take into account that there is nothing in motion that has not been put into motion by something else; therefore there must ultimately be an unmoved-mover at the root of all being. Since the Universe began to exist, we must consider that any cause we formulate as an attempt to explain the Universe, must necessarily transcend, space/time/ and energy. Not only that. We know of only two kinds of causes which can account for the motion or creation of something.
  1. Natural causes
    Or
  2. An Intelligent agency of some sort.
Since “Natural-Causes” has been shown to be logically absurd, we have no choice but to infer the existence of an intelligent agency of some kind as the best explanation. We do not have to know what kind of intelligence this would be. We need only know that a transcendent intelligent agency is the best explanation. (The only one as far as I can see).
 
***The argument from Existence too God ***
A second thing to consider is that all beings are contingent until you can find a being that is necessary. But in order to find such a being one must look at hierarchal relationships rather then causal relationships. Since the Universe began to exist, it is therefore not a necessary being and is therefore not the Ultimate Reality. But even if the universe or multi-verses had an infinite regress of temporal causes, it is still reasonable to ask why there is anything rather then nothing.

All things that exist have one unifying factor which is necessary to their being. They must first exist before they can have any nature of being. It does not matter whether it is time space or matter, none of these things can exist without the unifying principle of Existence itself. In other words, it is not reasonable suppose that existence is synonymous with dimensional beings, although it is true that they have the fortunate nature of existing. They instantaneously accompany one another; Existence permeates all beings. What results from this consideration, is that Existence itself transcends all dimensions and forms, and becomes a being in its own right, since all dimensions are dependent upon existing. You cannot say that existence is a property of dimensional things for that would mean that the universe transcends existence; which makes no sense. And so, hierarchically speaking, Existence is primary, while a dimensional being is dependent upon Existence in order to have the nature that it has. In over words dimensions are contingent things. The basic argument is therefore this,

“In order for anything to exist, there first must be such a thing as an Eternal Existence which transcends and permeates all dimensions.”

The strength of this argument is in the fact that such a truth transcends causal relationships from the finite to the infinitum. Remember; out of nothing comes nothing; therefore there must be a necessary being that I call “Pure Existence” (an ultimate being that has no dimension or form). But Existence cannot be caused by any natural thing, since nature would have to transcend existence, which is logically absurd. Therefore such a being must have an eternal-will to create all things that reflect Existence.

From these two arguments alone, one should be able to see that the Ultimate reality of all things is timeless, space less, and has no parts. It is pure being and eternal, therefore cannot be caused by any natural thing. And also one ought to see that such a being, in order to explain the existence of things, must be personal. A natural thing has dimension, and is in motion, and therefore we must account for its dimension and motion, and this leads us to a being that is by its nature an Eternal-Uncaused-Cause.
 
God has not given humans full knowledge of him, as he did the angels. The most compelling case for God is the fact that Satan exists, and we really don’t doubt that do we?
 
new_User1357246 said:
Hey everyone,

I have always struggled with the idea of God, but this is what has always thrown me off the most and I was hoping that someone could help with it. (forgive me if someone or many people have already posted with this same problem).

Simply put, it seems to me that all the arguments for the creation of the universe could also be applied to the creation of God. Namely that if the universe has all of these traits or whatever it must have been created. That sort of thing. To me, it solves nothing.

Basically, it just adds the question: how’d god come into being?
to which people generally say that he’s always existed and had no creator. I see no reason why the same could not be said about the universe–that is, cut out the middle man, so to speak. (yes, i know that scientists know that the universe had a “beginning” but that was basically just the start of time. For all we know, the matter had always been there.

Thanks!

P.S. I really am hoping to be convinced.
Click to expand...
maybe this will help

when we mathematically regress from current observable conditions in the universe we reach a point at approximately 1x10 (-35) seconds from the big bang, where the mathematical values stretch to infinity, prior to that we can show nothing, or we can say that science posits an infinite ‘moment’, for lack of a better word, when no time, space, or physical laws existed.

from that we can infer that prior to the moment of expansion that there was an infinity that was both prior too, and separate from the universe. i cant say directly that such an infinity was G-d, but those are the qualities we claim for G-d.

but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its is probably a duck

so the first cause from a that regression from current observed conditions shows that the first cause was at least a self existent infinity, prior to and outside the universe.

as to the idea that the universe always existed

actually the regressed math shows that matter did not exist prior to the expansion, remember the ‘infinite moment’ there was no time, or physical laws. we observe an explosion of matter, but not a bomb, so to speak.

further the the nuclear cycle of stars would also seem to rule out always existing matter, when a stars fusion process reaches iron, it cant maintain fusion, eventually, all the matter in the universe would become iron, if matter has always existed than it should all be iron by now.

i hope these help, feel free to ask questions

further, here is evidence that it is the Judeo/Christian G-d

over the course of millennium that the Old Testament was written Prophecies were made of a Messiah. those predictions were made by people that did not live in the same places, during the same times, in the same cultures, or even write in the same langauge.

yet those prophecies, from many varying sources, converged and were fulfilled in the person of Christ.

no other Faith can make the same claims, it is unique, and overpowering evidence of the Divinity of Christ and the truth of the existence of G-d.

you can find exact prophecies on this list of site
the list of fulfilled prophecies has dozens and dozens so let me post some sites that deal with them. i could find many more if you need them

clarifyingchristianity.co…ophecies.shtml
christiananswers.net/dict…rophecies.html
allabouttruth.org/messianic-prophecy.htm

one must admit that this leaves one with all but absolute mathematical certainty.

one of these sites even gives odds, though i dont vouch for their math, the odds of Christ not being the Messiah with only 7 fullfilled prophecies out of dozens at 1 to 10(38) power or this number below

1 to 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

with all the fulfilled prophecies in play, there wouldnt be enough room to write all the zeroes out in a post.

but the evidence is overwhelming, and unique to our faith. no other faith can make these claims
 
***The argument from Existence too God ***
A second thing to consider is that all beings are contingent untill you can find a being that is necessary. It would seem that there must be a neccesary being somewhere inorder to explain those beings which begin to exist or do not have to exist. But in order to find such a being one must look at hierarchal relationships rather then causal relationships. Since the Universe began to exist, it is therefore not a necessary being and is therefore not the Ultimate Reality. But even if the universe or multi-verses had an infinite regress of temporal causes, it is still reasonable to ask why there is anything rather then nothing.

All things that exist have one unifying factor which is necessary to their being. And that is, that they must first exist before they can have any nature of being. It does not matter whether it is time space or matter; none of these things can exist without the unifying principle of Existence itself. In other words, it is not reasonable to suppose that Existence is synonymous with dimensional beings, although it is true that they have the fortunate nature of existing. It is only true that they instantaneously accompany one another; Existence permeates all beings. What results from this consideration, is that Existence itself transcends all dimensions and forms, and becomes a being in its own right, since all dimensions are dependent upon existing. You cannot say that existence is a property of dimensional things for that would mean that the universe transcends existence; which makes no sense. And so, hierarchically speaking, Existence is primary, while a dimensional being is dependent upon Existence in order to have the nature that it has. In over words dimensions are contingent things. The basic argument is therefore this,

“In order for anything to exist, there first must be such a thing as an Eternal Existence which transcends and permeates all dimensions.”

The strength of this argument is in the fact that such a truth transcends causal relationships from the finite to the infinitum. Remember; out of nothing comes nothing; therefore there must be a necessary being that I call “Pure Existence” (an ultimate being that has no dimension or form). But Existence cannot be caused by any natural thing, since nature would have to transcend existence, which is logically absurd. Therefore such a being must have an eternal-will to create all things that reflects the glory of Existence.

From these two arguments alone, one should be able to see that the Ultimate reality of all things is timeless, space less, and has no parts. It is pure being and eternal, therefore cannot be caused by any natural thing. And also one ought to see that such a being, in order to explain the existence of things, must be personal. A natural thing has dimension, and is in motion, and therefore we must account for its dimension and motion, and this leads us to a being that is by its nature an Eternal-Uncaused-Cause.
 
new_User1357246 said:
how’d god come into being?
Click to expand...
We, as intelligence, throughout history have either not been able to explain why we are here, or have not had the confidence to believe that we are here as a result of nature - as a result of the universe.

In order to explain our phenomenology and gain confidence in our purpose, we created concepts known as gods. The Egyptians I think were around the first to create gods, and those gods served them well - in terms of self-confidence over other civilizations, as their incredible empire was the largest at its time - ruling over the godless. It’s sort of like natural selection. Those with God(s)conquered through their inspiration and ability to form alliances under one cause. I could cite a hundred examples of God(s) used as confidence, but the key remains: We created them, and nature, through humanity, created God.

Jesus is not some supernatural being, he is Man; by claiming he was God, and by our belief in Him, We are all God, for humanity (we) created God.

It’s evolution from a spiritual, infinite, religious point of view. For the universe is infinite, and Being is in itself. We don’t need a creator for nature is our creator; We are now its controller.

I go more in depth here : forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=289992
 
new_User1357246 said:
Hey everyone,
Simply put, it seems to me that all the arguments for the creation of the universe could also be applied to the creation of God. Namely that if the universe has all of these traits or whatever it must have been created. That sort of thing. To me, it solves nothing.

Basically, it just adds the question: how’d god come into being?
to which people generally say that he’s always existed and had no creator. I see no reason why the same could not be said about the universe–that is, cut out the middle man, so to speak. (yes, i know that scientists know that the universe had a “beginning” but that was basically just the start of time. For all we know, the matter had always been there.

Thanks!

P.S. I really am hoping to be convinced.
Click to expand...
Not hard, really.
Matter can’t have always been, because it has a kind of life cycle; it’s in motion. According to the laws of nature, matter and physical energy need to have come from somewhere. They are subject to the laws of nature.

Not everything/everyone is, though. The laws of nature are the restrictions the natural abides by. Whatever supersedes the natural and its laws is called the supernatural. It’s a fallacy to hold one entity to laws that govern another, very different entity. God, Who is supernatural, isn’t restricted by the laws of nature. If there is a First cause, and there has to be, that First Cause is supernatural. If a supernatural being is the original Being, He is the Creator, the Originator, of all. A supernatural being Who originated everything is what we monotheists mean by the term God. In other words, God must be without time, and everyone and everything else must at least have a starting point, for the universe we know so much about to exist.
 
new_User1357246 said:
Hey everyone,

I have always struggled with the idea of God, but this is what has always thrown me off the most and I was hoping that someone could help with it. (forgive me if someone or many people have already posted with this same problem).

Simply put, it seems to me that all the arguments for the creation of the universe could also be applied to the creation of God. Namely that if the universe has all of these traits or whatever it must have been created. That sort of thing. To me, it solves nothing.

Basically, it just adds the question: how’d god come into being?
to which people generally say that he’s always existed and had no creator. I see no reason why the same could not be said about the universe–that is, cut out the middle man, so to speak. (yes, i know that scientists know that the universe had a “beginning” but that was basically just the start of time. For all we know, the matter had always been there.

Thanks!

P.S. I really am hoping to be convinced.
Click to expand...
Actually, science says more than just that the Universe had a beginning. But, even that’s enough. If a thing has a “beginning” it is not an uncaused cause - it is a caused cause. If it’s a caused cause, then it follows that something else had to be its cause.

Second, science says that the heat within the singularity, or super-compressed point of whatever, was so hot that atoms could not have existed. What was it that was compressed into that singularity then, if there were no atoms?

Thirdly, scientists have, with the help of the Hubble telescope, discovered the probability of Dark Energy, within the cosmos. This Dark Energy appears to be what is causing galaxies, and stars to implode and disappear as they approach the outer boundaries of the Universe.

Fourth, the universe is not infinite. If it is not infinite and is growing (expanding), what is it expanding into?

Fifth, the Universe has none of the attributes of God.

Pure logic insinuates the necessity of something beyond just the mere universe.

JD
 
godfree12 said:
We, as intelligence, throughout history have either not been able to explain why we are here, or have not had the confidence to believe that we are here as a result of nature - as a result of the universe.

In order to explain our phenomenology and gain confidence in our purpose, we created concepts known as gods. The Egyptians I think were around the first to create gods, and those gods served them well - in terms of self-confidence over other civilizations, as their incredible empire was the largest at its time - ruling over the godless. It’s sort of like natural selection. Those with God(s)conquered through their inspiration and ability to form alliances under one cause. I could cite a hundred examples of God(s) used as confidence, but the key remains: We created them, and nature, through humanity, created God.

Jesus is not some supernatural being, he is Man; by claiming he was God, and by our belief in Him, We are all God, for humanity (we) created God.

It’s evolution from a spiritual, infinite, religious point of view. For the universe is infinite, and Being is in itself. We don’t need a creator for nature is our creator; We are now its controller.

I go more in depth here : forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=289992
Click to expand...
The universe is not, and can not be infinite. You are simply misunderstanding what it means to be infinite.

It might help if you would define “infinite” for me.

JD
 
If the OP would answer my question when he/she is able to.
I can wait.
 
JDaniel said:
The universe is not, and can not be infinite. You are simply misunderstanding what it means to be infinite.

It might help if you would define “infinite” for me.

JD
Click to expand...
infinite
adj, lt. from .infinitas

amount of time one waits for something sensible to be said on this thread.

petey’s commonsense dictionary, 3rd edition. 2008
 
notsmart said:
God has not given humans full knowledge of him, as he did the angels. The most compelling case for God is the fact that Satan exists, and we really don’t doubt that do we?
Click to expand...
I do doubt that…
 
warpspeedpetey said:
infinite
adj, lt. from .infinitas

amount of time one waits for something sensible to be said on this thread.

petey’s commonsense dictionary, 3rd edition. 2008
Click to expand...
Awww, gee whiz, petey. I thought there were some sensible posts on this thread, including mine. 😉
 
new_User1357246 said:
I see no reason why the same could not be said about the universe–that is, cut out the middle man, so to speak. (yes, i know that scientists know that the universe had a “beginning” but that was basically just the start of time. For all we know, the matter had always been there.

Thanks!

P.S. I really am hoping to be convinced.
Click to expand...
The universe could have alway’s existed in one form or another. This particular universe, according to one theory had a beginning, but I wouldn’t put too much stock in the entire “The Universe had a beginning science has proven it” argument.

There are other theories out there and no one single acceptable theory. When these other theorie/s can be mathematically proven(the math is beyond our ability to actually prove at the moment, though not for want to trying), then this entire “there must be a creator” idea will probably change quite significantly.

In all honesty though, I think you can accept both ideas as possibilities, and then learn or read about what that really means. You can never know for sure if there is anything MORE than a universe, so I would start with accepting those doubts, along with the possibility there is more. It’s not a very comfortable place to be, but personally, I think it is a place of integrity.
 
Dameedna said:
The universe could have alway’s existed in one form or another.
Click to expand...
unfortunately thats not possible, if matter had always existed, in some steady state. which we can prove the universe is not in, then everything would be dark, and cold.

if you are talking about a yo-yo or cyclic universe, expanding, and contracting, that violates the laws of thermodynamics, specifically, the second law, a systems state tends toward entropy over time if not in equilibrium.
This particular universe, according to one theory had a beginning, but I wouldn’t put too much stock in the entire “The Universe had a beginning science has proven it” argument.
Click to expand...
you’ll find with a little research that, for various reasons, almost all theories point to a universe with a beginning, the notable exception being quantum loop gravity. but then it proposes the cyclic universe, that has the same problem, with the second law of thermodynamics.
 
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