My Faith came under attack last night

[SMA_12]

Hi guys. I am 21 years old, and have been Catholic my whole life. Just recently though I have begun delving into apologetics. Since I am just a beginner I would really appreciate some advice on defending our faith, especially regarding an issue I am coming across more and more with people in my age group.

 First of all I want to state my 2 questions, because my story from last night is rather lengthy (my apologies).
1. How can I better defend "Religion" vs. a misguided idea of Spirituality, and what are some good arguements I can make?
2. How do I defend and teach the teachings of the Catholic Church accurately without pushing someone away? And how do I make them take my word for it rather than the false ideas about Catholic teaching others have put in their heads?

Last Night:

I was at a New Years Eve Party and three of us were standing outside talking about faith and God. A friend of mine began talking about why "Religion" was bad and religous people and organizations were like the Pharisees. I understand where he got this notion, as he was raised in a radical Fundamentalist Southern Baptist church, that today he considers a cult. He still is a Christian now a days, jumping from church to church frequently over the years.

But the problem arose, when a girl we were talking to began to agree with him, saying that she was raised Catholic but had fallen away. She recently had a baby (outside of marriage), and she said she wanted to baptize the baby in the Catholic Church, but her grandmother had told her that the Church would not accept the child because he was concieved outside of marriage. This is where I jumped in and explained that I am a Catholic and that her grandmother gravely misinformed her. But I could barely finish what I was saying, when two more people jumped in, irate, one complaining that the Church would not recognize her second marriage and that the Church considers her children "bastards". I could barely get in a word, and then the New Years Count Down began and everyone scattered.

This kept me up last night. I felt that I had failed in defending the Holy Catholic Church, and I missed an opportunity to guide a fallen away Catholic back home. Rather she seemed to listen to my friend and his idea that “Religion” is bad and “Spirituality” and “your own personal path to God” is the way to go.

I appreciate any advice on how to better handle the situation and how to defend the Church from misconceptions growing in people of my generation.

God Bless.

 

[bmullins]

In those situations there really isn’t much you can do. As you can see, both of the people had a specific problem not with the church, but with a specific sin in their life. The one had a child out of wedlock and resented the church for teaching that she was a sinner for doing so. It only affirmed her anger when she found out (falsely) that she wasn’t able to get her child baptized.

The other one claimed that the church wouldn’t recognize her second marriage, which is true only if her first marriage was a valid sacrament. Which once again makes her a sinner. (I myself am in the process of a long, drawn out annulment so I know this can be a hard teaching to accept.)

It’s easier to say Ah the church is wrong, than to say “Maybe I should look at what I am doing and why they believe it’s a sin.” Often sin blinds us to the reality of life.

A recent friend of mine joined RCIA at the same time I did this year. I did not know her before, but became rather fond of her. She was fine till we started talking about marriage. You see, she has been in a relationship with a man for 14 years. She refuses to marry him. She said she’d accept the churches teachings etc, but when it came to that… all of a sudden the church was wrong and she wanted nothing to do with it.

Instead of facing the sin and wondering why the church taught such (we aren’t even to that point in the RCIA process) she decided she’d just go elsewhere.

I would take this as a learning process. I’d study the particular problems they have with the church, marriage, divorce, children out of wedlock… I would know exactly what to say next time, in a very concise, and non judgmental manner. They might not listen then either, but at least they will hear it and in the back of their mind it has a chance of taking hold. Plant the seed, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

 

[SMA_12]

Thank you very much. This makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[JustaServant]

It never ceases to amaze me the complete lack of social skills fundamentalists have. In the REAL world, one would not begin to attack another’s religion over a simple question. But fundamentalists are on this “mission” to enlighten the world with thier wonderous “knowledge”.
Teen-agers have the same problem.

 

[sedonaman]

…
Last Night:

I was at a New Years Eve Party and three of us were standing outside talking about faith and God. A friend of mine began talking about why "Religion" was bad ...

I know people who believe this, but they all fail to distinguish between religion and the believer.

 

[Tenofovir]

Hi guys. I am 21 years old, and have been Catholic my whole life. Just recently though I have begun delving into apologetics. Since I am just a beginner I would really appreciate some advice on defending our faith, especially regarding an issue I am coming across more and more with people in my age group.

Speak the truth. Often most apologetics can be done simply by speaking the truth without any additional evidence or research. Speak from your heart. You’re still Catholic. You’re alive. You’re not a sexually frustrated, depraved, kill-for-religion fanatic. That would put 90% of their concerns away. You’re not uncool. You just don’t believe that women are there to be sex objects. You don’t think we should take advantage of people. You don’t think that others’ perception is all that counts. You believe in personal responsibility but you’re not a stoic who rejects all pleasures and comforts.

This kept me up last night. I felt that I had failed in defending the Holy Catholic Church, and I missed an opportunity to guide a fallen away Catholic back home. Rather she seemed to listen to my friend and his idea that “Religion” is bad and “Spirituality” and “your own personal path to God” is the way to go.

You’re too hard on yourself. You did very well in positing the truth. The woman now may be swayed to research the issue more, say ask a priest and she may then become convinced of the reality.

I appreciate any advice on how to better handle the situation and how to defend the Church from misconceptions growing in people of my generation.

Be truthful and kind and compassionate. Understand where they’re coming from and work from there. God will help you.

 

[DoGodsBidding]

"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
― Fulton J. Sheen

 

[Little_Mary]

No matter what, continue to learn your faith as best you can. One never stops learning.

People, like the ones you met, who pose questions or make comments contrary to what you believe are, in a sense, TEACHING you, because you learn as you make efforts to track down the answer.

I have an extremely fundamentalist “friend” who has taught me a great deal, unbeknownst to him, just by questioning me and making false accusations against my faith.

If I ever see him again, I’m going to shake his hand and thank him for DEEPENING my faith!!

See my signature…Qui Docent Discit … Who Teaches, Learns.
It’s true.

Also, pray. Pray, pray pray. Make sure you spend as much time talking TO God as you do talking ABOUT Him!!

God bless you.

 

[Mijoy2]

I do not know just what type of a New Years Eve party you were at. However I have a bit of advice that you may take or leave. I have learned this lesson through the school of hard knocks.

(my rule to myself) Never, ever engage in a conversation regarding faith or politics (esspecially faith, because it becomes even more emotional then politics, I believe) in an environment where alcohol is being consumed.

Alcohol, even when consumed moderatley magnifies emotion. This why more fists fly and more tears flow whenever alcohol is consumed.

I’m not suggesting this was the case in your “party”. Just some advice from a person who has learned the hard way.

 

[JRKH]

Hi guys. I am 21 years old, and have been Catholic my whole life. Just recently though I have begun delving into apologetics. Since I am just a beginner I would really appreciate some advice on defending our faith, especially regarding an issue I am coming across more and more with people in my age group.

Welcome the boards. Let’s see what we can do here…I have not read the other responses, so if I repeat…well that just means it is probably a good arguments…

1. How can I better defend “Religion” vs. a misguided idea of Spirituality, and what are some good arguments I can make?

This can be a deeply intellectual discussion and requires a good knowledge of what the other person means by the terms. For me, I see Spirituality as necessary first. Religion then provides structure, guidance and discipline to spirituality. Without the guidance that religion brings to the table, spirituality is easily misguided.

1. How do I defend and teach the teachings of the Catholic Church accurately without pushing someone away? And how do I make them take my word for it rather than the false ideas about Catholic teaching others have put in their heads?

You cannot make someone take you word for something. The best you can to is to try to give accurate answers calmly and charitably. Where possible, offer to provide them with proper documentation to show what the Church really teaches.
Finally - try asking a lot of questions. This way the person sees you as trying to understand them and not just “preaching”.

I was at a New Years Eve Party and three of us were standing outside talking about faith and God. A friend of mine began talking about why “Religion” was bad and religous people and organizations were like the Pharisees. I understand where he got this notion, as he was raised in a radical Fundamentalist Southern Baptist church, that today he considers a cult. He still is a Christian now a days, jumping from church to church frequently over the years.

As he seeks you might have the opportunity to help him find a permanent home in the Church. Plant seeds…the Holy Spirit will use these later.

But the problem arose, when a girl we were talking to began to agree with him, saying that she was raised Catholic but had fallen away. She recently had a baby (outside of marriage), and she said she wanted to baptize the baby in the Catholic Church, but her grandmother had told her that the Church would not accept the child because he was conceived outside of marriage. This is where I jumped in and explained that I am a Catholic and that her grandmother gravely misinformed her. But I could barely finish what I was saying, when two more people jumped in, irate, one complaining that the Church would not recognize her second marriage and that the Church considers her children “bastards”. I could barely get in a word, and then the New Years Count Down began and everyone scattered.

This kept me up last night. I felt that I had failed in defending the Holy Catholic Church, and I missed an opportunity to guide a fallen away Catholic back home. Rather she seemed to listen to my friend and his idea that “Religion” is bad and “Spirituality” and “your own personal path to God” is the way to go.

I appreciate any advice on how to better handle the situation and how to defend the Church from misconceptions growing in people of my generation.

God Bless.

Given the circumstances, you did all that could be done. Such conversations are simply “gripe sessions” and there really isn’t much of a desire to be open and learn.
You tried and that is good.

Just keep learning yourself. The questions that were posed New Years Eve, provide you with an opportunity to dig in a little bit, learn more, and maybe go over the scene in your mind and constructing good short answers or questions that might have helped…Or not…

As I say - a lot of times these are simply gripe sessions…

Peace
James

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Correction regarding bastards (illegitimate children): the Church presumes the validity of a marriage until an annulment has been granted concerning it, even if the grounds for annulment seem obvious. Children conceived in a presumed-valid marriage are considered legitimate, whether or not the marriage is in fact valid. A later annulment of that marriage does not change the fact that the children are legitimate. Thus the woman who presumed the children conceived in her second marriage were bastards in the eyes of the Church was mistaken. Also of course illegitimacy is not an impediment to baptism, as you know. At one time it was a legal impediment to ordination, but that’s ancient history.

 

[PattiDay]

You say that you are only a beginner, but eveone is only a beginner at some point. You bravely stepped up to speak the truth, even though the odds were defintely not in your favor. You are doing just what you need to do, first, in learning more about your faith and then in sharing it. You will become more comfortable as you grow in knowlede and understanding. We can’t expect to immediately save the souls of those who don’t understand or who do not want to hear, but it is possible, with the help of the Holy Spirit, that we may plant a little seed into their heart that might grow.

As for not pushing people away, I think if you begin to speak from the viewpoint of offering advice to someone who has asked for your advice, you will already have an audiance of one who is open to hearing, maybe not fully in agreement or understanding, but at least willing.

When addressing several people, especially those who jump in with ignorance and perhaps open hostility, that presents a much greater challenge. You may not be able to meet them where they are at that time and in that place, but you have tried, and the experience may help you to see where you might need to learn more. I would certainly not see that as a failure.

As to the fallen away Catholic who feels they have been done wrong by the Church, these are sometimes the hardest to reach. They often have a score to settle, which they do by spreading the misinformation that they received (in this case by a possibly distraught grandmother who knew no better). These are sad and wounded people who need and deserve our prayers, that with charity may yet be reached.

I urge you to continue to learn as much as you can and continue your apostolate. You have the great advantages of youth and desire and may reach many souls. God bless.

 

[rinnie]

In those situations there really isn’t much you can do. As you can see, both of the people had a specific problem not with the church, but with a specific sin in their life. The one had a child out of wedlock and resented the church for teaching that she was a sinner for doing so. It only affirmed her anger when she found out (falsely) that she wasn’t able to get her child baptized.

The other one claimed that the church wouldn’t recognize her second marriage, which is true only if her first marriage was a valid sacrament. Which once again makes her a sinner. (I myself am in the process of a long, drawn out annulment so I know this can be a hard teaching to accept.)

It’s easier to say Ah the church is wrong, than to say “Maybe I should look at what I am doing and why they believe it’s a sin.” Often sin blinds us to the reality of life.

A recent friend of mine joined RCIA at the same time I did this year. I did not know her before, but became rather fond of her. She was fine till we started talking about marriage. You see, she has been in a relationship with a man for 14 years. She refuses to marry him. She said she’d accept the churches teachings etc, but when it came to that… all of a sudden the church was wrong and she wanted nothing to do with it.

Instead of facing the sin and wondering why the church taught such (we aren’t even to that point in the RCIA process) she decided she’d just go elsewhere.

I would take this as a learning process. I’d study the particular problems they have with the church, marriage, divorce, children out of wedlock… I would know exactly what to say next time, in a very concise, and non judgmental manner. They might not listen then either, but at least they will hear it and in the back of their mind it has a chance of taking hold. Plant the seed, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

You will find that your friends like the rest of us try to turn our sin around and blame God.

Look at the very first book of the Bible. When God asked Adam why he sinned he blamed God for giving him Eve.

Some things never change. But just pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you and lead you in the Grace of God to help others.

But you will find that blaming others when we are in the state of sin is a human response.

 

[Roy5]

** This problem is a common one**. Here in the Northeast, where Catholicism has been very strong (Italian, Polish, French Canadian, Hispanic, Irish, etc.) there are many fallen-away Catholics, especially among those under 40. They often are vociferous in their rejection of their former faith.

**Why? Life style plays a major role. **The Church's condemnation of birth control is widely disregarded, for example, both by those married and single. There also is a strong objection to the church's severe condemnation of those in gay relationships, since most people have friends or acquaintances in such relationships. Others resent the annulment process, which they feel is a 'church divorce' and wonder why people like Gingrich can

get one if the Church is really serious. Political pull? Disrespect for Protestant marriages?
Why is it to difficult to have a failed marriage forgiven when a murderer can be absolved of sin at the confessional?

** But let me take comment on the comment of Bishop Sheen, so often quoted here on CAF.** To begin with, few non-Catholics hate Catholicism. Millions, however, whether Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Jews, the unchurched and others, profoundly amd honestly disagree with the Catholic Church. They may be well-acquainted with Catholicism and still disagree. It’s not usual that Catholicism is not misinterpreted or misrepresented. It’s that there is an honest difference of opinion.

**Personally, I find that ex-Catholics, certain fundamentalists and dye-hard secularists (included many Jews) are the most suspicious of and hostile to Catholicism.** Most mainline Protestants I know admire many things about Catholicism but take the attitude: "Let's agree to disagree and live together as Christian brothers and sisters in an atmosphere of mutual respect." They are much less inclined that many Catholics to insist that their particular interpretation of Christianity is the only valid one but, rather, gladly permit different interpretations as long as the bottom message is to love God and serve him by serving one another. They gladly work together with those of other faith communities on such local efforts as soup kitchens or through such a group as Church Women United.

** God bless all of his children,** whatever their creed, color, culture or country. Let us work together to make religion a bridge instead of a barrier. Happy New Year!

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Hi guys. I am 21 years old, and have been Catholic my whole life. Just recently though I have begun delving into apologetics. Since I am just a beginner I would really appreciate some advice on defending our faith, especially regarding an issue I am coming across more and more with people in my age group.

 First of all I want to state my 2 questions, because my story from last night is rather lengthy (my apologies).
1. How can I better defend "Religion" vs. a misguided idea of Spirituality, and what are some good arguements I can make?
2. How do I defend and teach the teachings of the Catholic Church accurately without pushing someone away? And how do I make them take my word for it rather than the false ideas about Catholic teaching others have put in their heads?

Last Night:

I was at a New Years Eve Party and three of us were standing outside talking about faith and God. A friend of mine began talking about why "Religion" was bad and religous people and organizations were like the Pharisees. I understand where he got this notion, as he was raised in a radical Fundamentalist Southern Baptist church, that today he considers a cult. He still is a Christian now a days, jumping from church to church frequently over the years.

But the problem arose, when a girl we were talking to began to agree with him, saying that she was raised Catholic but had fallen away. She recently had a baby (outside of marriage), and she said she wanted to baptize the baby in the Catholic Church, but her grandmother had told her that the Church would not accept the child because he was concieved outside of marriage. This is where I jumped in and explained that I am a Catholic and that her grandmother gravely misinformed her. But I could barely finish what I was saying, when two more people jumped in, irate, one complaining that the Church would not recognize her second marriage and that the Church considers her children "bastards". I could barely get in a word, and then the New Years Count Down began and everyone scattered.

This kept me up last night. I felt that I had failed in defending the Holy Catholic Church, and I missed an opportunity to guide a fallen away Catholic back home. Rather she seemed to listen to my friend and his idea that “Religion” is bad and “Spirituality” and “your own personal path to God” is the way to go.

I appreciate any advice on how to better handle the situation and how to defend the Church from misconceptions growing in people of my generation.

God Bless.

You didn’t fail in defending the Church. The circumstance was a bit awkward. But you did try. And the fact that no one was convinced by what you said didn’t make it a failure. It was a success because you defended the Roman Catholic Church and seeded a new opinion within those of your friends. Most people aren’t even courageous enough to do that. Baby steps, friend.

 

[maryj]

Even though you think that the girl did not hear you…You planted a seed. Here’s the hardest part, stand back and know,God takes care of the seed planted. Not always do we see the fruits of a discussion like that, but having been through many,many,of those conversations over the years, I have faith that God can take that little tiny seed planted and make it a mighty tree that bears good fruit. You did a good job…now pray!! And mijoy2…excellent advice!!

 

[icamay]

In those situations there really isn’t much you can do. As you can see, both of the people had a specific problem not with the church, but with a specific sin in their life. The one had a child out of wedlock and resented the church for teaching that she was a sinner for doing so. It only affirmed her anger when she found out (falsely) that she wasn’t able to get her child baptized.

The other one claimed that the church wouldn’t recognize her second marriage, which is true only if her first marriage was a valid sacrament. Which once again makes her a sinner. (I myself am in the process of a long, drawn out annulment so I know this can be a hard teaching to accept.)

It’s easier to say Ah the church is wrong, than to say “Maybe I should look at what I am doing and why they believe it’s a sin.” Often sin blinds us to the reality of life.

A recent friend of mine joined RCIA at the same time I did this year. I did not know her before, but became rather fond of her. She was fine till we started talking about marriage. You see, she has been in a relationship with a man for 14 years. She refuses to marry him. She said she’d accept the churches teachings etc, but when it came to that… all of a sudden the church was wrong and she wanted nothing to do with it.

Instead of facing the sin and wondering why the church taught such (we aren’t even to that point in the RCIA process) she decided she’d just go elsewhere.

I would take this as a learning process. I’d study the particular problems they have with the church, marriage, divorce, children out of wedlock… I would know exactly what to say next time, in a very concise, and non judgmental manner. They might not listen then either, but at least they will hear it and in the back of their mind it has a chance of taking hold. Plant the seed, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

Exactly! As an American raised as a Protestant, I can tell you that both cultures tend to spoil us - it’s not that WE are wrong, it’s THEM. Christianity is not a smorgasboard that we get to order from as our tastes desire.

 

[blue]

QUOTE
“1. How can I better defend “Religion” vs. a misguided idea of Spirituality, and what are some good arguements I can make?
2. How do I defend and teach the teachings of the Catholic Church accurately without pushing someone away? And how do I make them take my word for it rather than the false ideas about Catholic teaching others have put in their heads?”

The first thing I notice in your first question is the word “arguements” and in the second question the words “without pushing someone away” An arguement has it’s use and place but perhaps not here, not now. Personaly I find that an (inclusive) approach often gets them to listen and actually hear what I’m saying. I’d point out that, personal “Spirituality” is a necessary and important part of an individuals well formed spiritual life but it is only a part. Then proceed to explain. If you are cut off politety interupt and ask to be allowed to complete your thought. With the first young lady as you said, point out that she has been misinformed but blame no one and proceed with we all make mistakes, we all sin. Your child is innocent can be baptised and all sinners can be forgiven. The second young lady may be more challenging (more information is required) and a loving touch in tone can go along way. I would remind her that the children need to be baptised and while the Eucharist may not be possible, Mass is and these responsibilities still apply.

Apologetics is good, noble pursuit and a good arguement has it’s place. The truth must be tempered with kindness (not water down). Results are almost never seen right away if ever, the Holy Spirit works in his own time. God Bless.

 

[Link0126]

Also, when have people coming at you from all directions with multiple topics, it helps to stay on one point and not let them distract you. After the woman jumped in about her marriage, maybe just turning to the first one and being like “what I was saying about the baptism…” just try to make the conversation between you and her. It’s def. a tatic of arguments to keep the other person swinging in all directions.

 

[Little_Mary]

Also, when have people coming at you from all directions with multiple topics, it helps to stay on one point and not let them distract you. After the woman jumped in about her marriage, maybe just turning to the first one and being like “what I was saying about the baptism…” just try to make the conversation between you and her. It’s def. a tatic of arguments to keep the other person swinging in all directions.

You could even take it one step further with this simple question…“Do you really want to know the answer? Are you seriously seeking facts or are you just entertaining yourself by firing off statements like a gatlin gun…”???

Their answer to this question can help you determine whether or not you’d be wasting your time to try to engage them in any intelligent conversation. The term “blue in the face” comes to mind…

Then give them Albert Einstein’s quote…“Man should look for what is, not for what he thinks should be”