S
Scottgun
Guest
Suggesting that rationality is the only way to truth and that holding only to that which is necessary to life somehow isn’t an article of faith.
I would suggest a non-ironic belief system at least.
- Status
I would suggest a non-ironic belief system at least.
T
timotheos
Guest
Hi PazFeAmor,
Glad to see you back. Actually the point I was making was that the apostles didn’t have to take anyone’s word for the reality of God. Each one of them saw the indescribable reality first-hand, and after this, their earthly lives, save spreading the news, meant nothing after that. True, Heaven’s Gate and Jonestown folks, etc. died for their beliefs too, but those beliefs were ultimately based on their leader’s contrived ideas and charismatic appeal.
Can we agree that God is a hidden but objective reality? Not, “you have your god, I have mine”; a kind of “god” that is essentially the product of what each of us would like to believe. But a real God who exists regardless of how we may feel about Him on any given day.
I’m glad to see you questioning and searching. I myself was greatly relieved to hear that many theologians, eg. Aquinas, or Augustine, struggled with questions like these, too. Wish I wur smart lik them. I will pray for you.
-Tim
S
SPQR
Guest
Hi PazFeAmor,
Thanks for the reply. While I realize that they are in no way a comprehensive list of the points in Christianity you are having trouble with, I think that those you listed are still secondary to the main point: a personal relationship with Jesus. This is the key. To my thinking, Jesus died for me, personally, not just for humanity in general but for me as an individual and for everyone else out there as distinct, special beings who are more dear to Him than we are to ourselves. My main focus now, sort of where I am now in my spiritual progress, is knowing Him better and growing in this closeness and trust. But this view of the personal contact with Jesus as a person, as the savior who loves to save, is the cornerstone.
Did I have trouble with Adam and Eve or the story of the flood as factual, historical events? Sure. To a significant extent, I still don’t agree with the sort of simple, Sunday-school presentation I was given as a child. But I believe that there were two distinct people, male and female, who were the first humans, who were made by and in the image and likeness of God, and that these two through their disobedience caused the fallen human nature we are all now saddled with. Those are the important points, not all the silly, people-running-around-in-fig-leaves stuff that, like you, I used to get tripped up by.
As for offering up my suffering, well, I’m perfectly content saying that this is just a mystery that I’m not going to understand and doing it anyway. What else am I going to do with my suffering? I actually like that this is a mystery; that this is something big and mysterious that we can’t get our brains around.
One last thing: Faith is a gift. As you noted, you can’t just muster it up out of nowhere. Ask for it and see what happens.
I think that it’s very reasonable and commendable that you maintain your honest searching and questioning. If you continue in your openness, I would suspect that God will use this to draw you back to Him.
Thanks for the reply. While I realize that they are in no way a comprehensive list of the points in Christianity you are having trouble with, I think that those you listed are still secondary to the main point: a personal relationship with Jesus. This is the key. To my thinking, Jesus died for me, personally, not just for humanity in general but for me as an individual and for everyone else out there as distinct, special beings who are more dear to Him than we are to ourselves. My main focus now, sort of where I am now in my spiritual progress, is knowing Him better and growing in this closeness and trust. But this view of the personal contact with Jesus as a person, as the savior who loves to save, is the cornerstone.
Did I have trouble with Adam and Eve or the story of the flood as factual, historical events? Sure. To a significant extent, I still don’t agree with the sort of simple, Sunday-school presentation I was given as a child. But I believe that there were two distinct people, male and female, who were the first humans, who were made by and in the image and likeness of God, and that these two through their disobedience caused the fallen human nature we are all now saddled with. Those are the important points, not all the silly, people-running-around-in-fig-leaves stuff that, like you, I used to get tripped up by.
As for offering up my suffering, well, I’m perfectly content saying that this is just a mystery that I’m not going to understand and doing it anyway. What else am I going to do with my suffering? I actually like that this is a mystery; that this is something big and mysterious that we can’t get our brains around.
One last thing: Faith is a gift. As you noted, you can’t just muster it up out of nowhere. Ask for it and see what happens.
I think that it’s very reasonable and commendable that you maintain your honest searching and questioning. If you continue in your openness, I would suspect that God will use this to draw you back to Him.
S
stbruno
Guest
St. Augustine said> Our hearts are restless until they rest in God. He recognized that in his own life, Apparently you are recognizing that tendency in yourself, since you are searching for some peace of heart by exploring other traditions.
For those of us who know deep in our hearts the truth…That Jesus is the way, the truth, and life…I promise to pray for you.
Fr. Corapi, I don’t know if you have ever heard of him, www.fathercorapi.com has a website with some prayers for fathercorapi.com/PDF/911.pdf those who need help…it’s called spiritual 911.
Your faith is not at 0%, because you are still searching. 0% is when you submit to the wiles of the devil and are not interested. You still are interested. Give yourself some credit but remember the words of St.Augustine. A wise grandma told us that knowing about God is not the same thing as knowing God. That takes work. It’s just like love…it cannot be all in your head, but in your heart. It’s a lifelong task.
One more website to explore is this one…maybe you can relate to one of the stories there. catholicscominghome.org/
I also like this article I read on one of the links…maybe it will make some sense to us.
Someone wrote a letter to the editor of a newspaper and complained that it made no sense to go to church every Sunday.
“I’ve gone for thirty years now and in that time I have heard something like three thousand homilies, but I can’t remember a single one of them. So I think I’m wasting my time and the priests are wasting theirs by giving homilies at all.”
This started a series of replied letters and it went on for weeks until someone wrote this clincher.
“I’ve been married for thirty years now. In that time my wife has cooked some thirty two thousand meals and I can’t recall what the menu was for a single one. However, I know they nourished me and gave me the strength I needed to do my work. If my wife had not given me those meals, I would be dead today.”
That ended the letters to the editor on that topic.
For those of us who know deep in our hearts the truth…That Jesus is the way, the truth, and life…I promise to pray for you.
Fr. Corapi, I don’t know if you have ever heard of him, www.fathercorapi.com has a website with some prayers for fathercorapi.com/PDF/911.pdf those who need help…it’s called spiritual 911.
Your faith is not at 0%, because you are still searching. 0% is when you submit to the wiles of the devil and are not interested. You still are interested. Give yourself some credit but remember the words of St.Augustine. A wise grandma told us that knowing about God is not the same thing as knowing God. That takes work. It’s just like love…it cannot be all in your head, but in your heart. It’s a lifelong task.
One more website to explore is this one…maybe you can relate to one of the stories there. catholicscominghome.org/
I also like this article I read on one of the links…maybe it will make some sense to us.
Someone wrote a letter to the editor of a newspaper and complained that it made no sense to go to church every Sunday.
“I’ve gone for thirty years now and in that time I have heard something like three thousand homilies, but I can’t remember a single one of them. So I think I’m wasting my time and the priests are wasting theirs by giving homilies at all.”
This started a series of replied letters and it went on for weeks until someone wrote this clincher.
“I’ve been married for thirty years now. In that time my wife has cooked some thirty two thousand meals and I can’t recall what the menu was for a single one. However, I know they nourished me and gave me the strength I needed to do my work. If my wife had not given me those meals, I would be dead today.”
That ended the letters to the editor on that topic.
H
HeWillProvide
Guest
I think the fact that you **CARE **that you think you don’t have faith shows that you have at least .01% of faith.
If you did not take the time to post on here, and didn’t give faith a second thought EVER, then maybe your faith would be at zero. But, the notion of faith and God is obviously running through your mind - maybe subconsciously you want to believe, or subconsciously you believe you are offending God, etc (even though you say you don’t believe in Him). I think when you are absolutely CERTAIN there is no God, you wouldn’t think twice anymore about Him. I don’t think you care about stuff that you know for a fact is untrue. Like, I don’t care why 1 + 3 doesn’t equal 8 (because I know it doesn’t) - that thought never enters my mind ever - but you are caring about your supposed lack of faith and believe in God. It sounds like you still have at least a tiny seed of faith stirring inside you because you care that you think you don’t. If you rely on proof for the existence of God, it is kind of hypocritical (I think) because you can’t prove that God doesn’t exist, either (yet you believe* that*).
If you did not take the time to post on here, and didn’t give faith a second thought EVER, then maybe your faith would be at zero. But, the notion of faith and God is obviously running through your mind - maybe subconsciously you want to believe, or subconsciously you believe you are offending God, etc (even though you say you don’t believe in Him). I think when you are absolutely CERTAIN there is no God, you wouldn’t think twice anymore about Him. I don’t think you care about stuff that you know for a fact is untrue. Like, I don’t care why 1 + 3 doesn’t equal 8 (because I know it doesn’t) - that thought never enters my mind ever - but you are caring about your supposed lack of faith and believe in God. It sounds like you still have at least a tiny seed of faith stirring inside you because you care that you think you don’t. If you rely on proof for the existence of God, it is kind of hypocritical (I think) because you can’t prove that God doesn’t exist, either (yet you believe* that*).
P
PazFeAmor
Guest
I am posting to say thank you to all of you that have posted and for those of you who have been praying for me I thank you as well from the bottom of my heart.
I have been reflecting greatly on what has been going on in my life and backtracking up to the point of where I started to feel this total absence of faith. I literally started marking the calendar on what events took place up to my feeling a total absence of faith and I saw one HUGE red flag. Two weeks before my troubles started I had just convinced my mother to finally go to Confession after 40 years of not having done so. After remembering this I heard a Catholic woman on tv say that we can complain all we want about how God lets bad things happen but it is not because God wants these bad things to happen but that he respects our free will so much that he allows us to make good or at times very very bad choices in our life.
I am not very good at discerning spiritual things but this is one of the few times in my life that I felt such clarity within.
This started to shine alittle light into my heart and interiorly I could sense that perhaps I was being attacked by the evil one. Especially, due to the fact that I helped bring my mother back to Holy Mother Church. Anyways, to make things short, I will be going to Confession tomorrow.
I don’t know whose prayers moved the Lord to have mercy on me but I thank you for praying for me.
Peace
I have been reflecting greatly on what has been going on in my life and backtracking up to the point of where I started to feel this total absence of faith. I literally started marking the calendar on what events took place up to my feeling a total absence of faith and I saw one HUGE red flag. Two weeks before my troubles started I had just convinced my mother to finally go to Confession after 40 years of not having done so. After remembering this I heard a Catholic woman on tv say that we can complain all we want about how God lets bad things happen but it is not because God wants these bad things to happen but that he respects our free will so much that he allows us to make good or at times very very bad choices in our life.
I am not very good at discerning spiritual things but this is one of the few times in my life that I felt such clarity within.
This started to shine alittle light into my heart and interiorly I could sense that perhaps I was being attacked by the evil one. Especially, due to the fact that I helped bring my mother back to Holy Mother Church. Anyways, to make things short, I will be going to Confession tomorrow.
I don’t know whose prayers moved the Lord to have mercy on me but I thank you for praying for me.
Peace
J
Joyful_1
Guest
Praise the Lord!! Peace, Faith, Love, you are on the right track!:extrahappy: :bounce: :clapping: :dancing:
And pray the rosary. It is a great help against the powers of darkness.
God Bless
Joyful_1
S
stcardman
Guest
I went through something similar about 2 1/2 years ago. I was just finishing college and was going through uncharted waters. Anyway, my advice to you would be to ask yourself, are you ok with this total loss of “faith”? Why are you at this site, do you genuinely want to find Jesus? Or are you here because you think it is probably wrong to feel these things? If you genuinely want to find Jesus, you have to do your part to find him.
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
Can’t remember where I read about it, but someone reported in an article somewhere about being in church waiting for Mass to start and being convinced that their faith was GONE. Just GONE. In 30 seconds, everything just emptied out of them and they felt like a complete hypocrite staying there one second more. And after that thirty seconds, they were totally mentally and physically exhausted from the effort. And their mind was totally drained. And they said … suddenly out of nowhere, there was one clear thought … “Keep coming.”
They explained … that faith or no faith … just keep doing it … that, intellectually, you know it’s the right thing to do, even if you don’t “feel” it. And sometimes you just have to suffer the “loss” of the feelings … and let the intellectual part of your brain do the heavy lifting. And just “go through the motions” as if on automatic pilot … mechanically. And let God do all the “faith stuff” for a while. Let Him carry you.
The example of Mother Theresa is outstanding.
And many many other prominent Church writers have reported on “aridness” … maybe even the Dark Night of the Soul … kind of thing.
It’s late and I can’t remember the name of the saint who prayed, “Lord, the way you treat your friends, it’s no wonder you have so few of them.” He tests us. He teases us. He asks us, “Do you love Me?”
Collect the names of people who have requested prayer help here on CAF … When you get into that terrible frame of mind, take out your 3x5 card with the names and pray for them.
And you’re allowed to also pray, “Lord, more than anything I would like for you to lift this emptiness of faith. Fill me with faith. Help my unbelief.”
There’s kind of a cute little poem of sorts printed on a picture of two sets of footprints on a beach … the writer and God … and suddenly one set of prints stops and just the other set continues. And the writer asks why only one set of footprints. Why was he abandoned. And God said, “That’s when I was carrying you.”
So … let Him carry you.
They explained … that faith or no faith … just keep doing it … that, intellectually, you know it’s the right thing to do, even if you don’t “feel” it. And sometimes you just have to suffer the “loss” of the feelings … and let the intellectual part of your brain do the heavy lifting. And just “go through the motions” as if on automatic pilot … mechanically. And let God do all the “faith stuff” for a while. Let Him carry you.
The example of Mother Theresa is outstanding.
And many many other prominent Church writers have reported on “aridness” … maybe even the Dark Night of the Soul … kind of thing.
It’s late and I can’t remember the name of the saint who prayed, “Lord, the way you treat your friends, it’s no wonder you have so few of them.” He tests us. He teases us. He asks us, “Do you love Me?”
Collect the names of people who have requested prayer help here on CAF … When you get into that terrible frame of mind, take out your 3x5 card with the names and pray for them.
And you’re allowed to also pray, “Lord, more than anything I would like for you to lift this emptiness of faith. Fill me with faith. Help my unbelief.”
There’s kind of a cute little poem of sorts printed on a picture of two sets of footprints on a beach … the writer and God … and suddenly one set of prints stops and just the other set continues. And the writer asks why only one set of footprints. Why was he abandoned. And God said, “That’s when I was carrying you.”
So … let Him carry you.
1
1234
Guest
If you still feel as you did at the beginning of this thread and you are searching for a group who feels as you do, you might consider Unitarian-Universalism, "UU’. UU’s are an inclusive group, which contains many Catholic refugees, also agnostics, Buddhists, atheists, theists, deists, pagans and lots of former Protestants and ethnic Jews. UU churches sponsor courses on religion, including Buddhism, which many UU’s feel is the closest to their beliefs–I am a Buddhist, but too lazy to meditate! UU offers a community for (usually non-) believers with a fine service, music, sermon and lots of social and educational activities. They are usually very welcoming.
You would find a home there.
You would find a home there.
P
PazFeAmor
Guest
I pretty much left this thread where it was and didn’t further respond because I felt that since God had mercy on me and showed me alittle light at the end of the tunnel that I had nothing further to contritbute to my own thread.
I guess to answer your question 1234
No, I am not feeling like I did in my first post thank God. 
I have never been a fan of “inclusive anything”. I don’t have a need to feel accepted by people only by God. So Unitarianism would not be for me.I do admire Buddhism and in the crisis I was going through during my original first post I did write about going back and reading some of my old books on Buddhism. The reality is that the Buddha often remained silent on the question of God and thought such questions to be a distraction from the goal of one saving oneself through oneself. If one reads the Pali Tipitaka (writings of the teachings of the Buddha) one will find many mentions of other universes and God’s and how for the Buddha it was not possible for ordinary human beings to understand these other planes of existence.
For me this is just a cop-out and I honestly could not spend years of my life trying to “save myself through myself” without always having that nagging thought in the back of my mind “what if there is a heaven and God to go along with it?” Buddhism is very self-analytical but not something for me to follow for the rest of my life.
As much as I have struggled with my Catholic faith I just can’t leave it. It’s deep in my blood I’m afraid.
This coming Sunday I will be going on a day retreat with a group of sisters so I will be praying for of all you guys here at CAF and humbly ask that you pray for this sinner as well.I know, way too long answer.
Peace.
S
Sheeniac
Guest
Best of luck to you. I lost my faith for 25 years, and recently came back home. I can’t say that I would do it that way if I had the choice, but it is what it is.
One thing that helped me was reading the Case for Christ. It helped my intellect accept that my heart was saying.
One thing that helped me was reading the Case for Christ. It helped my intellect accept that my heart was saying.
P
PazFeAmor
Guest
Thanks be to God you came back Sheeniac.
I was away from Holy Mother Church for many years and only a few years back returned. It hasn’t been easy and I do suffer attacks of doubt (the worst episode I described in this thread where I had a total absense of faith).I don’t know if I will ever have again as bad of an episode of spiritual dryness as the last one but one thing has become crystal clear for me. I need to be spiritually nourished daily and if not then it becomes very easy for the evil one to attack me with doubts or a lack of faith.
I haven’t read a Case for Christ (I should) but I just may have to stop by my local library and check it out. Again, God bless you and keep you strong in the faith Sheeniac.
Peace.
1
1234
Guest
Whatever you decide to do, be a part of a group.
You sound depressed and lonely.
If you stay RCC, get in with some RCC kids or groups for kids.
And don’t discount Buddhism, which is compatible with the RC church, in its Zen form. Lots of Catholic Buddhists out there and it’s perfectly legit. Thomas Merton was very interested in Buddhism.
Good luck.
P
PazFeAmor
Guest
Well, in my original post which I posted over a MONTH ago I was agonizing from a total absence of faith that’s for sure but I am not depressed or lonely at all. I don’t know from where you got that impression in my last post.
Perhaps you think I posted this thread a few days ago??Anyways, as I said I could never leave the Catholic Church and Zen Buddhism doesn’t hold any interest for me at all.
I think you are assuming I am a teenager in suggesting that I get in with some RCC kids. I am far from being a teen and have had MANY years of past experience in having studied Eastern Religions so I know alot about the varying sects within Buddhism.
I don’t need luck I have God.
Thanks for the post.
Peace.
N
Nancyannheath
Guest
See the power of everyone’s prayer and faith? Our Faith held you up, and you kept looking and reading the posts instead of closing the doors and not reaching out to us. You kept asking and we kept responding and pulled you back. There must be a God then, right?
Faith is real, God is our Father and would never abandon you, even if you thought you could abandon Him…if you have children, and any of them said “I’m going to my room and NEVER coming out” you know they will be out when they get hungry, or a thunderstorm sends them running to your arms…and you will be right there with open arms, probably with a plate of warm chocolate chip cookies and a smile. I’m starting to cry.
I left the church for awhile…not my Faith or belief in God, but I was such a sinner, and willfully for quite a few years. When I came back, I STAYED back. Sometimes kids need to do that…
Welcome home, you are family
Faith is real, God is our Father and would never abandon you, even if you thought you could abandon Him…if you have children, and any of them said “I’m going to my room and NEVER coming out” you know they will be out when they get hungry, or a thunderstorm sends them running to your arms…and you will be right there with open arms, probably with a plate of warm chocolate chip cookies and a smile. I’m starting to cry.
I left the church for awhile…not my Faith or belief in God, but I was such a sinner, and willfully for quite a few years. When I came back, I STAYED back. Sometimes kids need to do that…
Welcome home, you are family
P
PazFeAmor
Guest
Thank you for your kind words and for the welcome.
It is indeed wonderful to know that we are all one family…One body in Christ! God bless you.Peace.
D
distracted
Guest
Frankly, i have a hard time believing a person who says he/she has no faith… But then… i think of my younger years and it is easier to understand…
Thanks for getting me to think about those years… not that i want to re-live them but because it reminds me of how far i have come… I never used to feel close to God as i do now…
I had a crisis years ago that i didn’t know how to handle. I prayed the rosary, something i had never really done, & i began seeing things differently… more the way God sees things (though you may not believe that?). It changed my life drastically.
Anyway, i have also been “born again”. Have you ever been through that?
I am not 100% happy w/ my life but i have to say that i feel close to God most of the time & that feeling of intimacy w/ Him is everything. You have to give up sin to begin to be close to Him… Sin separates us from Him… not because He wants that separation but because of the “mathematics” of spirituality, as it were… meaning 1 + 1 always = 2… Sin + more Sin always = spiritual disaster…
Anyway, God knows we are human and weak in various ways. He is always there for you & wants to help you… He IS helping you.
One big reason i love God more than before, and stay in His Church (etc) is becausee i know how unreliable people can be. They love you one day and reject you the next… & even the best of friends, relatives, etc… cannot ever understand you like Jesus can… I often (always?) feel lonelier when with people than when alone… (Actually, now that i think about it, that may not be entirely accurate… I don’t feel lonely when with people who see things more or less as i do. but even so, i cannot be with them 24/7).
Jesus knows everything there is to know about being human. He went through every feeling you are feeling… (i believe that anwya).
I have to go but will pray for you… God bless…
Thanks for getting me to think about those years… not that i want to re-live them but because it reminds me of how far i have come… I never used to feel close to God as i do now…
I had a crisis years ago that i didn’t know how to handle. I prayed the rosary, something i had never really done, & i began seeing things differently… more the way God sees things (though you may not believe that?). It changed my life drastically.
Anyway, i have also been “born again”. Have you ever been through that?
I am not 100% happy w/ my life but i have to say that i feel close to God most of the time & that feeling of intimacy w/ Him is everything. You have to give up sin to begin to be close to Him… Sin separates us from Him… not because He wants that separation but because of the “mathematics” of spirituality, as it were… meaning 1 + 1 always = 2… Sin + more Sin always = spiritual disaster…
Anyway, God knows we are human and weak in various ways. He is always there for you & wants to help you… He IS helping you.
One big reason i love God more than before, and stay in His Church (etc) is becausee i know how unreliable people can be. They love you one day and reject you the next… & even the best of friends, relatives, etc… cannot ever understand you like Jesus can… I often (always?) feel lonelier when with people than when alone… (Actually, now that i think about it, that may not be entirely accurate… I don’t feel lonely when with people who see things more or less as i do. but even so, i cannot be with them 24/7).
Jesus knows everything there is to know about being human. He went through every feeling you are feeling… (i believe that anwya).
I have to go but will pray for you… God bless…
D
distracted
Guest
I have a question for you:IAs much as I have struggled with my Catholic faith I just can’t leave it. It’s deep in my blood I’m afraid.
Peace.
have you ever spent time @ the Blessed Sacrament?
N
Nancyannheath
Guest
Distracted,
I so agree with what you are saying…both about being away and when you come back, it’s entirely a closer relationship, and about the less sin, the more intimate closeness with God, and not around people, I so agree with you. I feel him the most when I sit quietly alone on my backyard porch as the sun is going down. No words come to my mind, but I feel His presence. Then I just am so compelled to thank him for the momentary peace, or for the day, etc. I can really feel Him there. The phrase “Be still and know that I am” is so OBVIOUS at that point.
And when I sin, each time I go to confession, it takes longer and longer to get that close feeling back again with God.
May your relationship with Him continue to grow…
I so agree with what you are saying…both about being away and when you come back, it’s entirely a closer relationship, and about the less sin, the more intimate closeness with God, and not around people, I so agree with you. I feel him the most when I sit quietly alone on my backyard porch as the sun is going down. No words come to my mind, but I feel His presence. Then I just am so compelled to thank him for the momentary peace, or for the day, etc. I can really feel Him there. The phrase “Be still and know that I am” is so OBVIOUS at that point.
And when I sin, each time I go to confession, it takes longer and longer to get that close feeling back again with God.
May your relationship with Him continue to grow…
- Status