My faith is better than your faith

[guanophore]

So the answer is we just hate each other, and treat each other as the enemy?? Bad answer! I will actively defend Catholicism against any attack by a Protestant, don’t get me wrong, but taking an active adversarial relationship against each other is definitely not the answer. Not very Christian either.

I agree with you, but it is not loving to confirm others in error.

It is necessary to oppose evil, and wrongdoing. This can be done without being adversarial with people who are trapped in it.

 

[fix]

Does God really care that we worship differently, as long as we are sincere in that worship?

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize “that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts.” That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288

 

[mikew262]

Jesus let those who didnt like his teaching of the eucharist to simply walk away. Christ established an order of sacrifice and worship. Jesus said I would have no life in me without the eucharist. HIS words, not mine. Does it matter ? I think Jesus was clear. Why do you remain Catholic ?
Respectfully

Ah, the old questioning my Catholic faith attack, AGAIN.

The Catholic faith, as well as a few others, interpret that the real presence of Christ is in the Eucharist, however many other Christian faiths do not see it that way. All can provide scriptural evidence in their eyes supporting their position. Does this make these folks any less in Christ’s eyes? IMO, I don’t think so.

All are sincere Christians practicing their faith the best way they see fit.

The Catholic Church feels it has the full truth; other faiths feel the same way. Who knows for sure? Nobody! We won’t know that till we meet God in person. I don’t think God will punish the person who sincerely tried to follow Christ’s teachings the best way he/she knew how, even if they didn’t have it quite right.

Why am I still Catholic? I suppose because God hasn’t led me anywhere else.

 

[mikew262]

Is it hunky dory with God that people make up their own methods of following HIm, instead of accepting the ones He revealed?

Almost every “method”, including the CC, claim scriptural authority and the Holy Spirit as their guide. I’m not up to challenging God, are you?

 

[mikew262]

I agree with you, but it is not loving to confirm others in error.

It is necessary to oppose evil, and wrongdoing. This can be done without being adversarial with people who are trapped in it.

I don’t call alternative methods of worshiping Christ, evil and necessarily wrong. Nor should non-Catholics call our method evil or wrong. I simply call it different with the same ultimate goal.

 

[mikew262]

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize “that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts.” That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288

Even though Christians may worship Christ somewhat differently, I believe we can still have some degree of unity, if the different faiths would just show some mutual cooperation.

 

[guanophore]

Ah, the old questioning my Catholic faith attack, AGAIN.

The Catholic faith, as well as a few others, interpret that the real presence of Christ is in the Eucharist, however many other Christian faiths do not see it that way. All can provide scriptural evidence in their eyes supporting their position. Does this make these folks any less in Christ’s eyes? IMO, I don’t think so.

No one ever said it did, mike. God desires ALL men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the Truth. What I question is why you make non-Catholic and anti-Catholic statements, while claiming to be Catholic. However, you already stated that you don’t accept all the teachings of the Church. Some call this “cafeteria” Catholicism. Frankly I think it means a person has become a Protestant, but doesn not realize it. Didn’t you know that Lutherans also believe in the Real Presence? Do you realize that you would not have to pick and choose which doctrines to believe if you went over to a denomination that was more suited to you beliefs?

All are sincere Christians practicing their faith the best way they see fit.

At least, we would like to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are.

Judg 17:5-6
" In those days there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their own eyes."

News flash. A King has come, and has decreed what is right for us to do. Those who continue to do things “the best way they see fit” instead of according to what the King has decreed are rejecting the authority of the King.

The Catholic Church feels it has the full truth; other faiths feel the same way.

No, Mike, this is not accurate. First of all, the Catholic Church does not define Truth by what “feels” right. The Catholic Church receives Truth from Christ, who is the Truth. Secondy, other “faiths” do not “feel”. Protestant doctrinal formulations are not based on “feelings” either, but on departures from the Truth that was revealed by Christ.

Who knows for sure? Nobody!

This is an example of a non-Catholic statement that represents relativism. We do know for sure, because God has revealed it to us.

“And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son,** full of grace and truth**.” John 1:14

That Truth was revealed to the Church once for all (what we call the Divine Deposit of faith). If you do not believe that the fullness of that Truth subsists in the catholic church, then you are not espousing a Catholic viewpoint (perhaps this is one that you reject?).

Eph 1:22-2:1
22 And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

The Church, which is HIs Body, is the fullness of Him who fills all in all. To say that “nobody knows” is to spit in the face of His revelation of Himself to us.

We won't know that till we meet God in person.

You are calling the one liar who promised to lead us into all Truth. If the Truth cannot be known, then He did not reveal Himself, and His promise to lead us into all Truth is null and void.

He is too weak, or could care less than to walk away from His promise?

I don’t think God will punish the person who sincerely tried to follow Christ’s teachings the best way he/she knew how, even if they didn’t have it quite right.

I don’t think He will either, in fact, he stated otherwise. However, this being equivalent to “we can’t know the truth” is a gross insult to Christ.

Why am I still Catholic?  I suppose because God hasn't led me anywhere else.

Well, somebody sure has!

 

[guanophore]

Almost every “method”, including the CC, claim scriptural authority and the Holy Spirit as their guide. I’m not up to challenging God, are you?

No need. The claim of authority does not a valid authority make. Jesus created His Body, the Church, and assigned the duty of teaching truth to it. He promised to guide her into all Truth. He says about her that she is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth.

Any scriptural interpretation and HS guide that is authentic will lead one to that One Body that is in perfect unity with Him.

I don’t call alternative methods of worshiping Christ, evil and necessarily wrong. Nor should non-Catholics call our method evil or wrong. I simply call it different with the same ultimate goal.

Disobedience to Christ is wrong, and rejection of the authority He appointed to shepherd His church is wrong.

Worship does not consist of various “methods” that are all equally acceptable to God. Jesus was quite specific about the methods He wanted used. Those who reject His teaching are missing the mark. However well intentioned they may be, they are still missing the mark.

However, for what it is worth, I do agree that most do want the same ultimate goal.

 

[guanophore]

Even though Christians may worship Christ somewhat differently, I believe we can still have some degree of unity, if the different faiths would just show some mutual cooperation.

It is not loving to cooperate with error.

 

[a_priori]

“Error” is not quite as mathematical as some in Christendom assume it to be.

“I’m ABSOLUTELY right and you’re ABSOLUTELY wrong” is an absolutely ridiculous thing for any Christian to say to another Christian.

 

[LilyM]

We won’t know that till we meet God in person.

But as Catholics we DO meet God in person - every blessed Sunday in the Eucharist. John 6:40 makes it clear that this is what happens - “for this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life”.

We obviously don’t see him in human form - but we do see Him in reality nonetheless, in seeing Him in the Eucharist. No other denomination sees Him - they see bread and wine. With Him somehow present in it, to be sure, or so some of them believe, but still in both appearance and essence bread and wine, so that looking on the Eucharist they don’t really see Him.

And He promised that we WILL know - on this Earth. John 8:32 - ‘you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free’. It will be a bit too late for us to be set free by truth after death, no? our final destiny will be irrevocably decided during our life on Earth. The Truth is only of eternal use to us if we know it now.

And we can’t be set free by a partial truth, either, because partial truth means we’re still enslaved to lies. So we shall know the WHOLE truth, and know it in this life. And that truth is in the Catholic Church, because we alone see HIM.

 

[guanophore]

“Error” is not quite as mathematical as some in Christendom assume it to be.

“I’m ABSOLUTELY right and you’re ABSOLUTELY wrong” is an absolutely ridiculous thing for any Christian to say to another Christian.

I agree. However, Christ Himself is able to do this, and has done it. It is not “mathematical” at all, it is Divine Revelation. Refusal to accept absolutes is one of the hallmarks of relativism.

 

[guanophore]

But as Catholics we DO meet God in person - every blessed Sunday in the Eucharist. John 6:40 makes it clear that this is what happens - “for this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life”.

We obviously don’t see him in human form - but we do see Him in reality nonetheless, in seeing Him in the Eucharist. No other denomination sees Him - they see bread and wine. With Him somehow present in it, to be sure, or so some of them believe, but still in both appearance and essence bread and wine, so that looking on the Eucharist they don’t really see Him.

And He promised that we WILL know - on this Earth. John 8:32 - ‘you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free’. It will be a bit too late for us to be set free by truth after death, no? our final destiny will be irrevocably decided during our life on Earth. The Truth is only of eternal use to us if we know it now.

And we can’t be set free by a partial truth, either, because partial truth means we’re still enslaved to lies. So we shall know the WHOLE truth, and know it in this life. And that truth is in the Catholic Church, because we alone see HIM.

Thank you, LilyM, this is exactly what I have been trying to say.

 

[JimArsenault]

Don’t be afraid to go deeper in the truth. It is not wrong to study, contemplate and grow closer to God.

To know others is knowledge.
To know oneself is wisdom.

Don’t burn your books, read them.

We need to be patient with each other out here!
I am not the best at explaining things but I believe If Mike dosen’t agree with ALL the teachings of the Catholic Church he needs to study the 1’s he dosen’t believe more closely and prayerfully.
I am sure the Holy Spirit will bring understanding to you as he has me many times.
Ask and you will recieve.

Well that is all I have to say here is a bit from CCC for you to chew on.

216 God’s truth is his wisdom, which commands the whole created order and governs the world.God, who alone made heaven and earth, can alone impart true knowledge of every created thing in relation to himself.

217 God is also truthful when he reveals himself - the teaching that comes from God is “true instruction”. When he sends his Son into the world it will be “to bear witness to the truth”: “We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true.”

Peace

 

[mikew262]

Well, somebody sure has!

Well, you are welcome to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is, after all this is a forum.

 

[mikew262]

N.

Disobedience to Christ is wrong, and rejection of the authority He appointed to shepherd His church is wrong.

Worship does not consist of various “methods” that are all equally acceptable to God. Jesus was quite specific about the methods He wanted used. Those who reject His teaching are missing the mark. However well intentioned they may be, they are still missing the mark.

However, for what it is worth, I do agree that most do want the same ultimate goal.

Disobedience to Christ is in the eyes of the beholder. What is disobedience to one person, is sincere worship to another. The only beholder that really counts is Christ himself.

Each Christian faith worships in the way they believe Christ taught.

 

[mikew262]

“Error” is not quite as mathematical as some in Christendom assume it to be.

“I’m ABSOLUTELY right and you’re ABSOLUTELY wrong” is an absolutely ridiculous thing for any Christian to say to another Christian.

 

[mikew262]

But as Catholics we DO meet God in person - every blessed Sunday in the Eucharist. John 6:40 makes it clear that this is what happens - “for this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life”.

I think you know what I meant.

 

[mikew262]

We need to be patient with each other out here!

Boy, I am really trying to be patient, but its hard. :banghead:

 

[PBP]

Ah, the old questioning my Catholic faith attack, AGAIN.

The Catholic faith, as well as a few others, interpret that the real presence of Christ is in the Eucharist, however many other Christian faiths do not see it that way. All can provide scriptural evidence in their eyes supporting their position. Does this make these folks any less in Christ’s eyes? IMO, I don’t think so.

All are sincere Christians practicing their faith the best way they see fit.

The Catholic Church feels it has the full truth; other faiths feel the same way. Who knows for sure? Nobody! We won’t know that till we meet God in person. I don’t think God will punish the person who sincerely tried to follow Christ’s teachings the best way he/she knew how, even if they didn’t have it quite right.

Why am I still Catholic? I suppose because God hasn’t led me anywhere else.

Attacking ? Woa is me…
Dont let all this suffering go to waste, offer it up as a sacrifice.