My faith is better than your faith

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JimArsenault said:
We need to be patient with each other out here!
I am not the best at explaining things but I believe If Mike dosen’t agree with ALL the teachings of the Catholic Church he needs to study the 1’s he dosen’t believe more closely and prayerfully.
I am sure the Holy Spirit will bring understanding to you as he has me many times.
Ask and you will recieve.

Well that is all I have to say here is a bit from CCC for you to chew on.

216 God’s truth is his wisdom, which commands the whole created order and governs the world.God, who alone made heaven and earth, can alone impart true knowledge of every created thing in relation to himself.

217 God is also truthful when he reveals himself - the teaching that comes from God is “true instruction”. When he sends his Son into the world it will be “to bear witness to the truth”: “We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true.”

Peace
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Thank you for your gentle words. Yes, I agree with you, but it seems that studying to learn so he can embrace is not his goal, at least on this thread. On the contrary, he seems to reject the notion that the Successors of the Apostles speak for Christ, and has rejected some of what is taught. Not only that, but has repeatedly said that we cannot know the Truth, representing Christ as a liar, or a weakling. Such a notion must presuppose that Jesus did not keep His word when He promised “I will not leave you orphans”. 🤷
 
mikew262 said:
Disobedience to Christ is in the eyes of the beholder. What is disobedience to one person, is sincere worship to another. The only beholder that really counts is Christ himself.

Each Christian faith worships in the way they believe Christ taught.
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No, mike, this is another non-Catholic conception that you are purporting. There are genuine and authentic standards of conduct and disposition that God expects of man. These standards are not in our eyes, but in His. When you advocate that each man can “do what is right in his own eyes” you are rejecting the existence of a King who has authority to place standards to be obeyed. Jesus revealed Himself to man, and His revelation is not “in the eye of the beholder”, but is an objective reality, that is above and beyond all of our eyes to behold.

I agree, each faithful Christian worships in the way they believe Christ taught. Any fervent person who calls himself Christian is most likely very sincere. But, it is possible to be very sincere, and still be lacking in the Truth. This is why Jesus left us a Church, so that He could use her to guide us into all Truth. If you do not believe this, there is probably an Ashram, or a Unitaritain fellowship near to you. 😃
 
mikew262 said:
Boy, I am really trying to be patient, but its hard. :banghead:
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I think you will find, that for those of us who have chosen to embrace the Revelation of God in Christ, there is no going back to relativism. We have become like a brick wall, because we are the living stones which have been built into His Church. We have become pursuaded that to those who reject the one’s whom Christ sent, reject Christ.

To die to ourselves and find that it is “no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives within” really does limit one’s options. It is no longer possible to confirm others in error, or settle for less than God wants. One must relinquish the notion that it is just as good to do what is right in one’s own eyes. In fact, this is the sin of Adam and Eve, the original sin. They thought they could find a better way to knowledge than through God Himself. Rejecting HIs plan for fellowship with HImself, and using His revelation of good and evil as a standard, they wanted to become wise in their own eyes.
 
guanophore said:
No, mike, this is another non-Catholic conception that you are purporting.

If you do not believe this, there is probably an Ashram, or a Unitaritain fellowship near to you. 😃
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A non-Catholic conception that I’m purporting? I rather think it’s a good Christian attitude I’m purporting.

I think I’ll stick with the Catholic Church and continue to try to open the eyes of some of my more stubborn fellow Catholics. 😉
 
mikew262 said:
On another thread which was recently closed down, a lot of the discussion indirectly centered around the “My faith is better than your faith” concept. In other words, some Catholics were saying and/or insinuatiing our faith is the true faith and the whole truth and your Protestant faith is lacking and thus imperfect. Likewise some Protestants were saying the Catholic faith encouraged idol worship and spread a false gospel.

IMO, these types of attitudes do nothing but fuel the divisiveness between the various Christian denominations and Catholicism and accomplish nothing positive. Instead of trying to find fault, why not rejoice in the what they most all have in common.
  • Christ is the Son of God
  • Trinity
  • Christ died for our sins
  • The Resurrection
Most Christian groups all believe the above things. While we may worship God differently to some respect, most all agree on the basics. Does God really care that we worship differently, as long as we are sincere in that worship?

This may have been discussed enough already on the other thread, but I invite anyone’s comments. However, lets try to keep a charitable tone.
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**I’ll even go further. The Five ‘fundamentals’ of Fundamentalism are:
  1. The Bible is the revealed and unerring Word of God.
  2. The Deity of Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection.
  3. The Trinity
  4. The Virgin Birth
  5. The Second Coming
This is the Faith we share with our separated brethren.**
 
guanophore said:
I think you will find, that for those of us who have chosen to embrace the Revelation of God in Christ, there is no going back to relativism.
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Relativism? I’m not asking you to do that. Just be more accepting of fellow Christians and the way they worship Christ and not be so quick to judge. I ask the same of them, to not be so quick to judge Catholics and the way we worship.

John 3:16. All Christians believe this (or should). Really, what else is there when you get right down to it?
 
kalt said:
If you only go that far, everything seems the same. Though we seem to have those 4 things in common, it’s when you start to discuss what those things mean that the differences come up.

Ask a Protestant and a Catholic to talk about Christ’s dying for our sins, and you’re going to have 2 different answers.

I agree that it doesn’t have to get nasty, though.
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How would a Protestand and a Catholics answer to Christ’s dying be different? we both believe that Christ’s dying on the cross is the source of our salvation. i was not aware there was a difference of this opinion. could someone please inform me if my thinking is incorrect?
 
🤷
mikew262 said:
Code: 
A non-Catholic conception that I'm purporting?  I rather think it's a good Christian attitude I'm purporting.
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Your OP and your title reveals the error of your starting point. The Catholic faith does not belong to individuals. It consists of a Divine Deposit from God’s revelation of Himself that was once and for all delivered to us. God gave His Spirit to the Church to protect that Deposit of Faith from error(the gates of hell shall not prevail). For Catholics, it is not a personal pissing context (forgive my colloquialism) about mine is better than yours. We have been given custody of something that did not come from us, so it makes no sense at all to accuse us of lording it over others.

You are under no compunction to accept what Christ has revealed to mankind. YOu are free to choose to go your own way, and “do what is right in your own eyes”. This is part of being made in the image and likeness of God. You have the freedom to depart from His revelation.

This may come as a shock to you, since you don’t appear to understand the Catholic faith very well, but Catholics ARE Christians. All of the first Christians were Catholic, and there were no other Christians besides Catholics for a thousand years. So to set the two against one another is nonsense. When I say you are purporting a non-Catholic view, I mean to say this is a Protestant attitude.

🤷
mikew262 said:
I think I’ll stick with the Catholic Church and continue to try to open the eyes of some of my more stubborn fellow Catholics. 😉
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News flash, you are not “with the Church” so long as your reject her doctrines. Calling yourself Catholic does not make it so. A Catholic accepts all the teachings of the Church. Maybe you are role playing here for the sake of effect, and that is your perogative. No one can judge the state of your soul but God. All I can tell you is that you are pandering non-Catholic ideas under the guise that they are “more Christian”.

Another news flash - it is not the job of humans to “open the eyes” of others. This is the job of the Holy Spirit. If you think that you are on par, I guess that is your business. I can assure you that you will have difficulty opening the eyes of Catholics here, who DO accept the teachings of the Church, and who know that the Holy Spirit does not contradict what He has already revealed, as you have done on this thread. 🤷
 
mikew262 said:
Relativism? I’m not asking you to do that.
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Ahh, but you ARE mikew. When you ask us to accept that there is no way to know the Truth, that is just what it is. When you reject that there is a lawful King on the throne, and purport that it is “just as good” for everyone to ignore what He says, and “do what is right in their own eyes” this is relativism. Truth is what is true for them. I know this. It was not very long ago I was standing in your shoes! God help me! :o
mikew262 said:
Just be more accepting of fellow Christians and the way they worship Christ and not be so quick to judge. I ask the same of them, to not be so quick to judge Catholics and the way we worship.
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Well, I have agreed with you from the first post on this thread that it is imperative to be accepting of people, even if I cannot accept their behavaior. It is not the place of persons to judge one another, as I have stated. Jesus taught that we should let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest, not try to pull out what we perceive to be weeds.

However, most of the controversy is not “style of worship” as you suggest, but matters of doctrine. It is not loving to confirm others in error.
mikew262 said:
John 3:16. All Christians believe this (or should). Really, what else is there when you get right down to it?
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All that Jesus began to do and to teach until He was taken up into heaven. If you are satisfied to settle for a small particle, that is your right.
 
youth4christ21 said:
How would a Protestand and a Catholics answer to Christ’s dying be different? we both believe that Christ’s dying on the cross is the source of our salvation. i was not aware there was a difference of this opinion. could someone please inform me if my thinking is incorrect?
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This would be very good grist for a new thread. It is off topic here.

Since you are new here, I took the liberty of starting one for you. 🙂
 
mikew262 said:
Boy, I am really trying to be patient, but its hard. :banghead:
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Hey Mike I was in the same spot as you not long ago so I truely feel your confusion. Try climbing over that wall to see what is on the other side instead of beating your head against it. 😉
My prayers are with you
jim
 
This is just a bit of this encyclical but I believe it applies here.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ECCLESIAM SUAM

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI
ON THE CHURCH

AUGUST 6, 1964

False Philosophies
  1. In addition we are confronted with the doctrine of Naturalism, which attempts to undermine the fundamental conception of Christianity. Relativism, too, seeks to justify everything, and treats all things as of equal value. It assails the absolute character of Christian principles.
We are also confronted with the growing tendency to prune away from the Christian life everything that requires effort or causes inconvenience. It rejects as vain and futile the practice of Christian asceticism and the contemplation of the things of God.

Indeed, sometimes even the apostolic desire for a ready passport into secular society and the determination to make oneself acceptable to men and particularly to the youth of today, prompts certain people to lay aside the principles which characterize our faith and to reject the sort of dignity which gives meaning and force to our determination to make contact with others and makes our teaching effective. Is it not, perhaps, true that some of the younger clergy and religious, in their laudable endeavor to come closer to the masses and to particular groups, aim at becoming like them rather than different from them? By this worthless imitation they forfeit the real value and effectiveness of their endeavors.

We must be in the world, but not of it. These important words of Christ are especially relevant at the present time, difficult though they may be to put into practice. It will be well for us if Christ, who lives always to make intercession for us, (31) includes us moderns in the wonderful prayer He addressed to His heavenly Father: “I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil.” (32)

The rest of this encyclical can be found here. vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_06081964_ecclesiam_en.html
 
guanophore said:
🤷

Your OP and your title reveals the error of your starting point. The Catholic faith does not belong to individuals. It consists of a Divine Deposit from God’s revelation of Himself that was once and for all delivered to us. God gave His Spirit to the Church to protect that Deposit of Faith from error(the gates of hell shall not prevail). For Catholics, it is not a personal pissing context (forgive my colloquialism) about mine is better than yours. We have been given custody of something that did not come from us, so it makes no sense at all to accuse us of lording it over others.

You are under no compunction to accept what Christ has revealed to mankind. YOu are free to choose to go your own way, and “do what is right in your own eyes”. This is part of being made in the image and likeness of God. You have the freedom to depart from His revelation.

This may come as a shock to you, since you don’t appear to understand the Catholic faith very well, but Catholics ARE Christians. All of the first Christians were Catholic, and there were no other Christians besides Catholics for a thousand years. So to set the two against one another is nonsense. When I say you are purporting a non-Catholic view, I mean to say this is a Protestant attitude.

🤷

News flash, you are not “with the Church” so long as your reject her doctrines. Calling yourself Catholic does not make it so. A Catholic accepts all the teachings of the Church. Maybe you are role playing here for the sake of effect, and that is your perogative. No one can judge the state of your soul but God. All I can tell you is that you are pandering non-Catholic ideas under the guise that they are “more Christian”.

Another news flash - it is not the job of humans to “open the eyes” of others. This is the job of the Holy Spirit. If you think that you are on par, I guess that is your business. I can assure you that you will have difficulty opening the eyes of Catholics here, who DO accept the teachings of the Church, and who know that the Holy Spirit does not contradict what He has already revealed, as you have done on this thread. 🤷
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You are still not getting it. May the Holy Spirit open your eyes. Obviously, I’ve tried and failed.
 
mikew262 said:
You are still not getting it. May the Holy Spirit open your eyes. Obviously, I’ve tried and failed.
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Oh, I get it fine. I just don’t agree that you have to confirm others in error in order to be tolerant and charitable. 😃
 
mikew262 said:
Again, the point is being missed. Look at the title of the thread. Many have been killed because of this concept.
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I agree with you. Last night I watched a PBS special on the Inquisitions. I think it was biased, but even still, it is appalling some of the things people do in the name of God. They even stated that they covered the crucifix, so that Jesus would not have to watch the torture! I mean, really! If you are about to do something that you wouldn’t want Jesus to see one would think that would give you a clue.
mikew262 said:
You don’t think the Pope at the time didn’t sanction the persecution and vice versa with the Protestant leaders?
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Sinful people are found in every race, color, and creed. Their fallibility does not make the Teaching wrong. Judas’ betrayal of Christ did not invalidate what Christ taught.
mikew262 said:
True, you can’t vilify the CC because of the sins of the leadership at the time, I understand that. However do you see how this concept causes so much strife?

Mutual respect!!
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Yes, I do see that, and I do think that it is incumbent upon us to respect one another. That can be done without confirming others in their error.
 
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why to you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck fro your brother’s eye” (Matthew 7:1-5).
 
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