My faith is better than your faith

[mikew262]

Hey Mike I was in the same spot as you not long ago so I truely feel your confusion. Try climbing over that wall to see what is on the other side instead of beating your head against it.
My prayers are with you
jim

Maybe you should’ve stayed where you were.

 

[mikew262]

Show me documentation on this?

You’re kidding, right?

 

[mikew262]

Yes, I do see that, and I do think that it is incumbent upon us to respect one another. That can be done without confirming others in their error.

The priest in his homily today quoted Blessed Pope John XXIII. He said “See everything, overlook a lot, and correct a little”.

Seems rather appropriate for this thread I thought, especially the last part I bolded.

The point is, we don’t need to confirm others in error unless maybe it’s something very major and then do it very sparingly. Almost all Christians believe in the same basics of Christianity, perhaps all should overlook the vast majority of differences, that really in the long run may not make that much difference. Concentrate on what we may have in common.

 

[distracted]

Most Christian groups all believe the above things. While we may worship God differently to some respect, most all agree on the basics. Does God really care that we worship differently, as long as we are sincere in that worship?

.

well, yeah, but we are right and they are wrong. Case Closed…

Just kidding…

Seriously… i spread the Catholic faith because it is the ONE Christ instituted on Earth… and He set things up in His Church the way He did… for reasons we don’t always fully apprehend…

But one thing i do understand fully is the Presence of Christ… To be as brief as possible, i have often had the thought that if it weren’t for being able to spend time with Christ There, i may not have kept the faith… or not kept it as well as i have… Things are shown to me There that are not revealed to me anywhere else, things having to do with me, personally… and all the people i know… and situations i encounter…

In other words, it is a personal relationship with Christ that i never had before (before about 10 yrs ago…)… Thanks be to the priest who shared that with me…

 

[guanophore]

The priest in his homily today quoted Blessed Pope John XXIII. He said “See everything, overlook a lot, and correct a little”.

Seems rather appropriate for this thread I thought, especially the last part I bolded.

The point is, we don’t need to confirm others in error unless maybe it’s something very major and then do it very sparingly.

I agree. I would have to say, for myself, I do not correct anyone with regard to their belief/faith practice. I find my own log plenty for me. If someone asks me what I believe, or why, I will, and if they ask for spiritual direction, I will give it.

Almost all Christians believe in the same basics of Christianity, perhaps all should overlook the vast majority of differences, that really in the long run may not make that much difference. Concentrate on what we may have in common.

In my daily life, yes. On CAF, I generally frequent the Apologetics forum where I am quite vigorous because that is where we focus on those differences. I don’t come here to have fellowship with others, but to defend the faith. If you are interested in concentrating on what you have in common, I suggest you are in the wrong venue! This is not the purpose or mission of CAF.

Perhaps an ecumenical ministry would be more appropriate?

 

[mikew262]

I agree. I would have to say, for myself, I do not correct anyone with regard to their belief/faith practice. I find my own log plenty for me. If someone asks me what I believe, or why, I will, and if they ask for spiritual direction, I will give it.

Ok, very good! I have absolutely no problem with that. This is where I’m coming from. Alleluia! :clapping:

 

[peary]

I have to toss in my 2 cents worth. A person who was baptized in a Catholic Church by a Catholic priest is a Catholic even if they never set foot in a Catholic church after the baptism, unless this has changed in the past several years. My first husband was baptized in a Catholic Church because it was the closest church to where his parents lived. He never stepped foot inside a Catholic Church until the day of our wedding rehearsal. When I talked to my priest about it he said that since he was baptized Catholic, he is Catholic no matter what.

**So, what you are saying is that there are various degrees of one being a Catholic, from a scale of 1-to-10, 10 being the least Catholic?? **

 

[pigtown]

**So, what you are saying is that there are various degrees of one being a Catholic, from a scale of 1-to-10, 10 being the least Catholic?? **

I’m not “saying” anything; simply stating a fact. There are Catholics who are very faithful and there are Catholics who aren’t. They can still be Catholic with various degrees of activity. I certainly would not try to put degrees of Catholic faith on anyone.

 

[mikew262]

I’m not “saying” anything; simply stating a fact. There are Catholics who are very faithful and there are Catholics who aren’t. They can still be Catholic with various degrees of activity. I certainly would not try to put degrees of Catholic faith on anyone.

If you are baptized a Catholic, then you are a Catholic. You may be a non-practicing one or a “cafeteria” one as some folks like to say, but you are still a Catholic.

 

[fix]

Even though Christians may worship Christ somewhat differently, I believe we can still have some degree of unity, if the different faiths would just show some mutual cooperation.

Yes, well if we only accept the things we have in common and go no further how is that beneficial?

This is a recent remark from the Holy Father:

To progress further toward genuine unity, the Pope said, Christians must address their differences with candor. “We must guard against any temptation to view doctrine as divisive and hence an impediment to the seemingly more pressing and immediate task of improving the world in which we live,” he said.

Ecumenical work, the Pope continued, involves not merely an exchange of ideas but, more importantly, an exchange of gifts. Ultimately, he insisted, the effort "points toward a common celebration of the Eucharist, which Christ entrusted to his apostles as the sacrament of the Church’s unity par excellence.Remember the ultimate goal of ecumenism: Pope

 

[anamchara]

Do you agree, then, with mike, that there is no objective truth? Does Christ want everyone to do what is right in his own eyes?

Is it hunky dory with God that people make up their own methods of following HIm, instead of accepting the ones He revealed?

Should we really be co-opting the Bride of Christ into some sort of sick, self-serving “scorecard of sanctity”? You seem to enjoy playing ref and throwing the penalty flag for indifferentism wherever you think you can in an effort to shave a few points for your own side.

Does Christ want everyone to do what is right in his own eyes? Actually, yes. For instance, while you may well desire to instruct the ignorant, you are not doing to well in counselling the doubtful, bearing wrongs patiently, nor forgiving injuries. You are doing what you see as right in your own eyes but are only scoring 1 for 4 of the spiritual works of mysteries. Should we have doubts about you then?

Well, I would not presume to speak for God as to what is “hunky dory” and what is not. But I will be guided by Scripture and Tradition as revealed in the Magisterium. Along this line, I often turn to the Catechism where I find:

**817 **In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

820 “Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.” Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: “That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me.” The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.

 

[pigtown]

If you are baptized a Catholic, then you are a Catholic. You may be a non-practicing one or a “cafeteria” one as some folks like to say, but you are still a Catholic.

Thanks, mikew. I’m glad to see that there is someone who actually understands.

 

[soma]

We are all Catholics with different jobs. Some defend the faith, some follow the way, some are devotional, some intellectual, but love is the key. Love burns away ignorance and illuminates the mind with unity and the presence of a pure heart that gives rise to a mind that is capable of seeing a totally new dimension.

 

[peary]

You’re kidding, right?

Not at all. You made the assertion against the papacy. Now, you need to substantiate it with documentation to prove it.

 

[mikew262]

Not at all. You made the assertion against the papacy. Now, you need to substantiate it with documentation to prove it.

Here you go. I need to go to work, but I’ve hastly come up with a link or 2. Now I can’t promise there isn’t any bias in these links, but I think most of the facts are fairly true. These links actually show many of the documented transgressions of some of the past Popes. Persecution of non-Catholics may be listed in them. **Mind you these are the sins of man and not of the Church. ** This is off topic, so I don’t want to get into a long drawn out discussion on this.

ftarchives.net/foote/crimes/c7.htm

catholicconcerns.com/Popes.html

ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=repented

 

[Ghoti]

Here you go. I need to go to work, but I’ve hastly come up with a link or 2. Now I can’t promise there isn’t any bias in these links, but I think most of the facts are fairly true. These links actually show many of the documented transgressions of some of the past Popes. Persecution of non-Catholics may be listed in them. Mind you these are the sins of man and not of the Church. This is off topic, so I don’t want to get into a long drawn out discussion on this.

ftarchives.net/foote/crimes/c7.htm

catholicconcerns.com/Popes.html

ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=repented

You’re joking, right?

An anti-religious website? A former nun who writes “Catholicism Unmasked”? Ian Paisley??

And you say you “can’t promise there isn’t any bias”?

Duuuude!

When it comes to Catholicism, if any of these sites said the sky was up, I’d still look out a window to check. The axe these sites have to grind is big enough to chop up any possibility they have of credibility.

You might as well go to an SDA site to “prove” that the Pope is the AntiChrist.

Anything these sites get “right” would fall into two categories:

1. 
   *]peppering the false with the true to boost credibility
   *]getting it right accidentally (as in, a stopped clock is completely accurate twice daily)

 

[peary]

originally posted by pigtown:

Originally Posted by peary
So, what you are saying is that there are various degrees of one being a Catholic, from a scale of 1-to-10, 10 being the least Catholic??

I’m not “saying” anything; simply stating a fact. There are Catholics who are very faithful and there are Catholics who aren’t. They can still be Catholic with various degrees of activity. I certainly would not try to put degrees of Catholic faith on anyone.

I think what you are saying is that one is baptized Catholic - meaning that one is baptized in the fullness of Faith. And, of course, he or she thus belongs to Christ’s Church. But please remember that the Church also recognizes the baptism of nonCatholic denominations as long as they use the Triune formula. Does that make them ‘Catholic’? No. But are they on the road to salvation? They are given the opportunity to be.

 

[pigtown]

originally posted by pigtown:

Originally Posted by peary
So, what you are saying is that there are various degrees of one being a Catholic, from a scale of 1-to-10, 10 being the least Catholic??

I’m not “saying” anything; simply stating a fact. There are Catholics who are very faithful and there are Catholics who aren’t. They can still be Catholic with various degrees of activity. I certainly would not try to put degrees of Catholic faith on anyone.

I think what you are saying is that one is baptized Catholic - meaning that one is baptized in the fullness of Faith. And, of course, he or she thus belongs to Christ’s Church. But please remember that the Church also recognizes the baptism of nonCatholic denominations as long as they use the Triune formula. Does that make them ‘Catholic’? No. But are they on the road to salvation? They are given the opportunity to be.

There are people who were baptized in the Catholic Church who did not have anything more to do with the Church (baptized as nfants) but they are still considered to be Catholic. I knew someone who fell into this category.

 

[guanophore]

originally posted by pigtown:

Originally Posted by peary
So, what you are saying is that there are various degrees of one being a Catholic, from a scale of 1-to-10, 10 being the least Catholic??

I’m not “saying” anything; simply stating a fact. There are Catholics who are very faithful and there are Catholics who aren’t. They can still be Catholic with various degrees of activity. I certainly would not try to put degrees of Catholic faith on anyone.

I think what you are saying is that one is baptized Catholic - meaning that one is baptized in the fullness of Faith. And, of course, he or she thus belongs to Christ’s Church. But please remember that the Church also recognizes the baptism of nonCatholic denominations as long as they use the Triune formula. Does that make them ‘Catholic’? No. But are they on the road to salvation? They are given the opportunity to be.

Technically speaking, yes. There is only ONE BODY, and Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH. Therefore, all validly baptized persons are members of it. The Catholic Church teaches that they are "separated’ in the sense that they are not joined in the most proper manner as Christ intended, due to defects from the full Truth. It is on the basis of this that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church.

 

[soma]

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).