My father (looong, angry vent, sorry)

[Litcrit]

My father babysat my daughter for 90 minutes on Tuesday. Previously, he rarely even saw her unless he came over to spend an hour or two twice a week because he had nowhere to go while his girlfriend was in class. He only started even noticing her recently. I felt almost as though I had no father and my daughter had no maternal grandfather. My mother died 7 years ago.

They played and had fun, and when it was time for him to go, she cried. She’s three. She cries when anything fun stops. Did I mention she was three?

He called me yesterday to tell me we were obviously neglecting our daughter, depriving her emotionally and turning her into a mentally unstable person. We keep her in a prison where she is lonely and deprived and this is why she was upset to see him leaving. Apparently he meant to say he was the only one who ever paid any attention to this poor soul and this is why she didn’t like to see him leave.

We are both with her almost 24/7 and live with her, interact with her, talk, tell stories, co-sleep, share meals, do chores, watch and explain cartoons, all together, all the time.

He only sees us 2-4 hours a week and he knows we’re neglecting her? Because he sees us do something else while Grandpa’s playing with her? Because we’re not into structured play too much (and he’s a control freak - he plays with her and tells her where to put the building block, because it has to be symmetrical, she says no, he insists)? This is the only way to parent well, right?

Basically, I shouted that at him, said ‘thanks for your concern, good bye’ and hung up. I’m 30 weeks pregnant and I don’t need to be told I’m an evil, neglectful mother by my own father, my only surviving parent, who doesn’t even know us, really!

My daughter asked me ‘Why are you crying? What did Grandpa say?’
‘He said I’m a bad mom’
‘You’re a good mom’, she said, and kissed me.

Typical behavior for a neglected, emotionally deprived, mentally unstable child.

I’m very angry and hurt. I pray about it and will confess the anger, but I don’t know what to do about it. I don’t know if I can talk to him again and how. He attacked the very essence of our parenting without any arguments or evidence. How am I supposed to talk to him now?

I suppose he meant well, but thinking that doesn’t help me. I think we’re good parents. We’re gentle, understanding, sane. I don’t expect a pat on the back, but I don’t expect this from my father. When I don’t have a mother. When I’ve done this with no support from my family for 3 years now and counting. When I’m 30 weeks pregnant with my second child, being told I’m already neglecting the first one.

 

[Litcrit]

(Unnecessary background, for anyone interested: when my mother died 7 years ago, it became increasingly difficult for my father and me to communicate. He’s an overly sensitive, eccentric man, to put it mildly, was raised by a narcissistic mother in a home atmosphere I’d have to describe as unhealthy, though everything had to seem perfect on the outside, and while my psychologist mother was alive, she seemed to give him the stability and reality checks he needed, and we functioned pretty well as a family.

He was 40 when I was born, after 12 years of marriage - they contracepted for the first 10 years. He was an involved parent, and overly so, I have to say - I found out recently my mother felt she was being pushed away from me by him and excluded from all the walks, games and activities he organized with me.

When she died, as I said, communication with him became difficult. I got married and moved away 3 years later, and he moved in with his girlfriend. We almost lost touch. I invited him - and her - over repeatedly, offered them the guest room. We were an hour away by car. He came once when I was 8 months pregnant with my first and then once when it was my daughter’s first birthday and then once more when it was another big family celebration around the time she was 2. We did see each other at other times, but only when we came back to the city. This is very, very weird in my culture. Parents are supposed to want to see their grown children. Grandparents are supposed to want to see their grandchildren. You’re supposed to not be able to fight them off once you have kids. I felt sort of abandoned and sort of orphaned.

When we moved back into the city, a year and a half ago, he started coming uninvited 2-3 times a week for 1-2 hours because he drove his girlfriend to some classes she was taking and had nowhere to go while he waited for her to be done. During the visits, he was awkward and difficult to talk to and paid little attention to his granddaughter. We asked him to babysit once for 15 minutes because we had something to do, and it was such a big deal that we haven’t asked since. Well, until this Tuesday.

He is away from the country half a year every year because of his girlfriend’s job. This last 6-month stretch at home, he’s been a bit different. He started taking an interest in DD - although still only when it was convenient for him to while away 1-2 hours twice a week, regardless of whether that worked for us, but I was still thinking it was getting better. They played and talked together, and how he handled her was irritating at times - telling her where she had to put the building block, although she had other plans, or using the conversation with her to criticize us - but we seldom intervened and found it easier to just let them play for those few hours while we did something else - usually I’d go to CAF and just relax a bit.

It was still awkward trying to have an actual conversation with him. He’d either answer monosyllabically or use anything we say to criticize us.

E.g. Me: ‘So, what’s up with you two? Are you still decorating your apartment? Look, we made a new bookcase. Like it?’
Him: ‘Mhm. You threw away an old wardrobe that was made of solid wood, and now you get something that is cheap and low-quality.’

Me: ‘We threw away a 50-year-old wardrobe that was soaked wet 30 years ago and has stunk and been half rotten ever since. And this was 4 years ago’

This continues either with more criticism and defence, or we just stare at the wall. Or I surf the Net. But he started interacting with DD, which was goood.

Or so I thought until Tuesday. See previous post for the in medias res…)

 

[phoooiee]

I felt really sad to read this. It sounds like a very difficult situation.

I don’t know if you’re looking for advice but if you are, I would do whatever helps you to stay in an active state of love and closeness to God- and do whatever that leads you to as regards your father.

I will keep you and your family in my prayers.

 

[journey137]

Wow, I won’t go into details, but your relationship with your father sounds very similar to mine. We have very different parenting styles, and my stepmom (mother died 5 years ago) defends our choices to him a lot so I don’t have to as much. Since you think you’ll have a hard time being rational, I would write a letter telling him that if he can’t afford you the same courtesy he would give to a stranger, that he is not welcome in your home. Maybe mention how much he hurt you with his assumptions and by saying you’re a bad mother, and say when he’s ready to apologize and behave properly, he’s welcome back. I would have my husband deliver the letter in person, and my husband would probably say something along the lines of don’t ever hurt my wife like that again. I’m sorry you’re having a hard time with family… it’s got to be even more difficult because your culture is so family oriented so you see “perfect families” everywhere but at home. Prayers for you and yours.

 

[joandarc2008]

I am so sorry to hear this - Maybe you could suggest father/daughter counseling as a way of making sure your father is getting the stability he needs from a therapist or a priest? You and your family are in my prayers.

 

[Litcrit]

Wow, I won’t go into details, but your relationship with your father sounds very similar to mine. We have very different parenting styles, and my stepmom (mother died 5 years ago) defends our choices to him a lot so I don’t have to as much. Since you think you’ll have a hard time being rational, I would write a letter telling him that if he can’t afford you the same courtesy he would give to a stranger, that he is not welcome in your home. Maybe mention how much he hurt you with his assumptions and by saying you’re a bad mother, and say when he’s ready to apologize and behave properly, he’s welcome back. I would have my husband deliver the letter in person, and my husband would probably say something along the lines of don’t ever hurt my wife like that again. I’m sorry you’re having a hard time with family… it’s got to be even more difficult because your culture is so family oriented so you see “perfect families” everywhere but at home. Prayers for you and yours.

Thank you.

For all I know, he may just drop by tomorrow, because that’s when his GF has classes and it’s convenient for him to wait here because it’s close. He never asks if it’s OK with us, he just comes. If he does, I’ve no idea what to do.

Yeah, here it’s taken for granted that it’s the meaning of grandparents’ lives to spend as much time as possible with grandkids, I see grandparents begging to babysit and parents allowing it as if they were doing THEM a favor… and I’d felt like I was missing something, but didn’t really expect anything from him, didn’t think I was owed anything. I mentioned this because of the absurdity of making ANY assumption about ANYONE after spending a grand total of 90 minutes with them!

I am so sorry to hear this - Maybe you could suggest father/daughter counseling as a way of making sure your father is getting the stability he needs from a therapist or a priest? You and your family are in my prayers.

Thanks.

Counseling? It’s difficult to imagine getting him to have a relatively normal conversation. Like one where I’d be able to actually suggest counseling.

We don’t really have that here, anyway. You can go to a psychologist or psychiatrist if a general practitioner refers you because you have a problem, but there’s no ‘counseling’ per se, especially not specific stuff like this.

Thanks for the thought, though.

 

[journey137]

Thank you.

For all I know, he may just drop by tomorrow, because that’s when his GF has classes and it’s convenient for him to wait here because it’s close. He never asks if it’s OK with us, he just comes. If he does, I’ve no idea what to do.

Yeah, here it’s taken for granted that it’s the meaning of grandparents’ lives to spend as much time as possible with grandkids, I see grandparents begging to babysit and parents allowing it as if they were doing THEM a favor… and I’d felt like I was missing something, but didn’t really expect anything from him, didn’t think I was owed anything. I mentioned this because of the absurdity of making ANY assumption about ANYONE after spending a grand total of 90 minutes with them!

Thanks.

That sporadic dropping by without notice is why I would write a letter informing him that unless he shapes up and apologizes, he’s not welcome. He has no right to see his granddaughter, especially when he acts like that. If he stops by, you could either ignore the door if you know it’s him or open it and tell him you’re not feeling up to visitors and suggest a place where he could go to pass the time (some place with free refills on their coffee, a nice park, or a book store maybe?) and promptly close the door after your suggestion.

 

[monicatholic]

litcrit,

you dont have the father you want. your little one doesn’t have the grandfather she wants (though perhaps she doesnt know it yes.)

there’s nothing you can do to change that.

but your little ones have the mother and father they need. you give them love. a stable home. raise them up in our sacramental Faith. teach them cool stuff. and read them good books. that’s absolutely everything a parent can do in this life.

heck woman, you can’t even convince others you’re doing a good job-- you don’t even have ***that ***much power.

you and your husband answer to God, Whom you encounter in your conscience, which has been (and is being) formed according to His will and which has been (and is still being) nourished by His grace through the sacraments. and you and your husband answer to each other-- living the sacrament of marriage minute in, minute out, year after year. even if your dad wasn’t idiosyncratic and critical, you’re an adult. you’re not obligated to answer to him.

dad would only come to my house only if
a) he called first and asked
AND
b) keep his post-visit conclusions to himself
AND
c) he agreed to STOP “using the conversation with her to criticize” you

 

[Litcrit]

That sporadic dropping by without notice is why I would write a letter informing him that unless he shapes up and apologizes, he’s not welcome. He has no right to see his granddaughter, especially when he acts like that. If he stops by, you could either ignore the door if you know it’s him or open it and tell him you’re not feeling up to visitors and suggest a place where he could go to pass the time (some place with free refills on their coffee, a nice park, or a book store maybe?) and promptly close the door after your suggestion.

dad would only come to my house only if
a) he called first and asked
AND
b) keep his post-visit conclusions to himself
AND
c) he agreed to STOP “using the conversation with her to criticize” you

Thank you, guys.

I talked to him, a bit more gently than suggested. He’s very sensitive. I did have to hurt his feelings to make him see how he was hurting mine, though - I explained that of the things he feels so strongly are so important to children, I only remember several unpleasant moments with him from my own childhood. He insists children need to be ‘walked’ for hours every day and that playing has to be actively initiated and guided by the parent, and I told him I just remember being bullied into playing things his way, him being offended that I went out with grandparents when *he *was supposed to take me out for a walk, and a few moments like these - and nothing else. After that, he seemed to accept that being critical about another person’s parenting was indeed hurtful. He agreed to try to find a new mode of interaction with me - one involving two adults who love and respect each other.

All in all, it went amazingly well - if I hadn’t prayed so much about it I’d be proud of the way I handled it, but I feel I can’t take credit.

He’s still behaving.

His girlfriend came over, though, and I hadn’t had a conversation with her, so I got another, gratuitous dose of insanity - DD hadn’t seen her in 2 months and didn’t even recognize her when she came, but she seemed to believe that her leaving would upset DD so much she wouldn’t be able to eat.

Oh, and my father further clarified what he meant by ‘imprisoned’ and ‘deprived’ - DD is not in preschool. Meh.

 

[journey137]

I’m glad things went well, and hopefully they continue to do so :dancing:

 

[Liberanosamalo]

How old is GF? Childbearing years still? Could his sudden interest in parenting have anything to do with that?

Please know this is not about YOU. You are going to give your child a sibling. THAT is the greatest gift you can give. It will be companionship and teach her much about sharing the limelight, something your father can’t handle.

If you are looking for validation that you are not a bad mother, I’m giving it to you. Do not apologize for the world you have carefully created for her in her tender years. It is stable, peaceful and she has been cared for. And soon she will have a sibling.

I will say from now on share nothing with her about grandpa. Even though his conversations with her criticizing you are completely inappropriate, do not do the same. I would have put the phone down and waited to share the frustration with an adult. Do not put her in a triangle.

Now…

Y’all know it’s coming.

Look up narcissism and adult children of narcissists and everything you can get your hands on on the subject. If he was raised that way, and judging by what you have said, HE is one too. And there are specific pitfalls I’ll briefly outline that you need to worry about with him. He sounds like a classic case. And recognizing his behavior for what it is will help YOU not take it so personally. It’s not about you. It’s about HIM. It’s ALL about HIM. And it sounds like his GF is one too. That should be fun to watch crash and burn.

As a child he grew up neglected emotionally and physically. He has a big gaping hole in his psyche… a yawning blackhole that no amount of love and attention will ever fill. Your mother, being a psychiatrist, was very professional with him and managed to handle it and not take his behavior personally, even though she felt shut out of her own daughter’s life.

That is a typical narcissist tactic. They really are capable of having only one strong relationship with a person at a time. THEY pick the person and obsess over the person. Everything is on THEIR terms. The other person has no rights. (Like the games you played, your rights as a child to think freely and play freely.) He used YOU as the filler for his emotional black hole. You grew up with everything you did not being quite good enough. No wonder all he has to do is say something negative to you and he reignites all that self doubt and sends you running to strangers for validation. He’s been playing you like a fiddle all your life.

Your mother died. He used you as his focus for love and attention. (Be honest, you gave more than you got.) How dare you find a husband and move! That changed everything. You betrayed him by not making him the center of your universe.

He immediately got with the next woman to fill the black hole. Had no time for you. No interest in your life. Typical. Until his world changed and he suddenly had a few hours alone every day. A narcissist cannot spend time alone. It scares them. To be alone in their own company is terrifying. Who WILL worship them without an audience.

All of a sudden he finds a new audience. LitCrit2.0 And what a darling smart little girl. Finally at the stage where SHE can interact with HIM and reward HIM with her adoration. (Narcissists hate being around teeny babies that don’t reflect joy, adoration and gratitude back at them. They are instead fountains of needs and wants and complaining much like the adult narcissist. Babies, hopefully, will outgrow it. Adult narcissists… not so much.)

So he starts playing the same game with your DD. Telling her how to play, undermining YOU… and then it’s time for goodbye. Well, of course in a narcissist’s world, if they walk away, so does the sun, moon and stars! He projects on your daughter a humongous need for HIM. Oh, he needs someone to worship him. Since obviously now GF can spend a few hours away from him without falling apart.

Long way of saying this is all about your father’s insatiable need to be worshipped. And to build himself up by knocking you down. And he projects all his fears and how HE was treated and accuses YOU of doing what HIS mother did. Typical.

And when he does it, it brings back all your childhood insecurities he carefully cultivated.

Don’t let him do it to your child. Don’t let him push you to the side using your child the way he did with you and your mother. (Narcissists are incredibly repetitive. Nothing is new under their sun. Same old same old. Different year, same garbage.)

I’m surprised he accepted your complaints as well as he did. You can forgive him, but watch him like a hawk. And let your husband run interference. Your father won’t argue with a man.

Take care of yourself. And remember only a jerk picks on a pregnant woman.

 

[John21652]

I’m surprised he accepted your complaints as well as he did. You can forgive him, but watch him like a hawk. And let your husband run interference. Your father won’t argue with a man.

Take care of yourself. And remember only a jerk picks on a pregnant woman.

I think Liberanosamalo has given you a very erudite and principled response. There is no need to rebuff him totally, or to write letters that would cause even more grief. You need to understand him. Liberanosamalo has shown you how.

You wrote -

He’s an overly sensitive, eccentric man, to put it mildly, was raised by a narcissistic mother in a home atmosphere I’d have to describe as unhealthy, though everything had to seem perfect on the outside, and while my psychologist mother was alive, she seemed to give him the stability and reality checks he needed, and we functioned pretty well as a family.

Replicate your mother’s attitudes towards him as best you can and, to quote Liberanosamalo “let your husband run interference”.

 

[Litcrit]

How old is GF? Childbearing years still? Could his sudden interest in parenting have anything to do with that?

Nope, she’s over 50, childless.

Please know this is not about YOU. You are going to give your child a sibling. THAT is the greatest gift you can give. It will be companionship and teach her much about sharing the limelight, something your father can’t handle.

If you are looking for validation that you are not a bad mother, I’m giving it to you. Do not apologize for the world you have carefully created for her in her tender years. It is stable, peaceful and she has been cared for. And soon she will have a sibling.

Thank you.

I will say from now on share nothing with her about grandpa. Even though his conversations with her criticizing you are completely inappropriate, do not do the same. I would have put the phone down and waited to share the frustration with an adult. Do not put her in a triangle.

I really try never to do this. This time I was crying and she’s so intuitive and guesses things and I didn’t want to lie to her.

Look up narcissism and adult children of narcissists and everything you can get your hands on on the subject. If he was raised that way, and judging by what you have said, HE is one too. And there are specific pitfalls I’ll briefly outline that you need to worry about with him. He sounds like a classic case. And recognizing his behavior for what it is will help YOU not take it so personally. It’s not about you. It’s about HIM. It’s ALL about HIM. And it sounds like his GF is one too. That should be fun to watch crash and burn.

…]
Take care of yourself. And remember only a jerk picks on a pregnant woman.

:bigyikes:

WOW.

Liberanosamalo, are you a psychologist specializing in this or do you have a crystal ball?

You seem to understand my father so much better than I do. And I *have *looked up narcissism and adult children of narcissists, repeatedly. And I knew his mother for 15 years and I’ve known him for 27.

I’ll say one thing - he’s doing remarkably well given what his mother put him and his sister through. I have to give him credit for that. His sister was emotionally blackmailed out of marrying the guy she loved, then barely and grudgingly allowed to marry one she didn’t love as much (after being told to ‘choose between him and her’ - the mother), and she finally committed what I have to describe as suicide by alcohol. In comparison, my father is doing admirably. And I do believe he’s really trying, and has been all his life, not to be like his mother. And, compared to his mother, he’s a gem, really.

He’s been trying so hard for a week now. No gratuitous critical comments. Today we had an actual conversation where we shared feelings and life experiences.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and insightful post. I’ll study it more. I’ll give it to my husband to read. If there’s more where that’s coming from, please share.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I was married to one. I learned everything the hard way and through research online it verified my instincts.

Some sources say that “cures” are rare. Often it takes a certain “hitting bottom” to give them self awareness. Some say that as they get older some change. It sounds like your dad is not one of the hopeless cases. So focus on that. When you are with him, PRAISE what he does right. That will make him do it more. Think of him as essentially being on the emotional level of a 3 year old with the same self-preserving (nice way to put it) instincts and emotional control. And the same reward needs.

With him, behavior you want to encourage… you praise him. “Gee, Dad, when you allow her to build the blocks like that and explain to her how gravity will make it fall rather than taking them away and showing her, you really are teaching her well.” “Gee, Dad, your patience while she does the puzzle wrong is nice to see. She’ll remember that about you years from now.”

That kind of thing.

The stuff he does that you don’t like… let your husband talk it over with him out on the back porch.

And next time someone blindsides you to the point of tears in front a child, now that you’re at that stage in her maturity where she notices and comments on everything, explaining less is more. “I was on the phone with Grandpa and he said something that surprised me. I just got a little weepy, but I’ll be all right.”

Kids that age don’t really care what caused it. They only care if you’ll be all right. Because that means THEY will be all right too. (They’re little narcissists too. Hopefully they grow out of it.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

The positive thing about his newfound interest is, if he learns to direct that “devotion” correctly and channels it well, it could be a very nice time for your daughter as you are dealing with a new baby. It’s a challenge for toddlers to “share” and having that “special time” with just her and Grandpa could be something very good for her, and allow you to devote a few hours to the baby and she won’t feel “neglected.”