My first bad experience

[ErricFiggy]

I was talking to a a friend regarding his belief in salvation by faith alone, and it was very tiring and draining spiritually. He just kept bombarding me with Scripture I knew how to handle it, but it was just overwhelming. I tried redirecting the conversation and focusing on one thing at a time, but it seemed as if though his mind was already made up. I even told him he was welcome to come home to the Catholic Church and he told me he took that very offensive, and that hewasat home with Jesus Christ. We finished our discussion, and he wants to talk about purgatory next…should i continue? Or is he just looking to “enlighten” me instead of actually listening?

 

[Trishie]

His persistence would seem to be based on wanting to convert you not in wanting to know the truth.
The Catholic belief in faith and good works is supported in Scripture.
Here are a few quotes

James 2:14-24 "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and of you says to them, “God in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

** Luke 6:46-49 **"Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?
Everyone who comes to me an listens to my words and acts on them–I will show you what he is like. He si like a man who when he builds his house dug deeply, and laid the foundations on rock; when the river was in flood it bore down on that house but could not shake it, it was so well built. But the one who listens but does nothing is like the man who built his house on soil, with no foundations; as soon as the river bore down on it, it collapsed; and what a ruin that house became ]
**
Philippians 2:12-13 **“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

Galatians 6:7-9 “Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.”

And very significantly, in Jesus words when describing the basis upon which He judges souls in Matthew 25 verses 31-46

veritasbible.com/newjerusalem1989/read/Matthew_25

 

[Rainaldo]

Bombarding you with scripture, eh?

Ask him to outline, off the top of his head, one book of the Bible. I’ll bet he can’t because he is not reading for understanding.

 

[joeantony]

I was talking to a a friend regarding his belief in salvation by faith alone, and it was very tiring and draining spiritually. He just kept bombarding me with Scripture I knew how to handle it, but it was just overwhelming. I tried redirecting the conversation and focusing on one thing at a time, but it seemed as if though his mind was already made up. I even told him he was welcome to come home to the Catholic Church and he told me he took that very offensive, and that hewasat home with Jesus Christ. We finished our discussion, and he wants to talk about purgatory next…should i continue? Or is he just looking to “enlighten” me instead of actually listening?

Oh , I would personally go for it. But if I think I am gonna lose myself in front of him or her, then I wont. But I will not run away from a chance to have that conversation. I will offer my in ability to talk about the True Faith to the One who is the giver of all things, Our Lord.

So, go for it and you never know, you might be the instrument that the Holy Spirit has planned to use to throw some light in your friend’s heart.

God bless you,
Joe

 

[Koineman]

I was talking to a a friend regarding his belief in salvation by faith alone, and it was very tiring and draining spiritually. He just kept bombarding me with Scripture I knew how to handle it, but it was just overwhelming. I tried redirecting the conversation and focusing on one thing at a time, but it seemed as if though his mind was already made up. I even told him he was welcome to come home to the Catholic Church and he told me he took that very offensive, and that hewasat home with Jesus Christ. We finished our discussion, and he wants to talk about purgatory next…should i continue? Or is he just looking to “enlighten” me instead of actually listening?

Protestant or not, he should be willing to listen to you. In any charitable discussion, there should be some give and take. It sounds like he unloads but doesn’t pick up. Try telling him that you would love to discuss the topic with him but that you would like to go slowly so that you can give his points the attention they deserve. Better yet, quote James 1:19-20:

“But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.”

If he still insists on having a one-sided discussion, then I would give up or at least wait for a better time to talk to him about it. In my experience, trying to talk to someone like that usually ends up generating more heat than light.

 

[lily20]

I would advise to drop the debate on spirituality altogether with your friend, because he wants to argue it in order to “Help” you. You will be running in circles with him for a long time.

Titus
9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

John
4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (sounds like you already did this based on the argument).

 

[familyof4]

Protestants who believe in faith alone tend to ignore James (as described above), and misread Paul. Ask him to provide you examples of Paul stating “faith alone” (both words) in any of his epistles. He won’t be able to.

How does he explain James very emphatic assertions that faith without works is dead?

 

[KCT]

I love the book Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David Currie.

It might give you some insight, and if your friend is willing to read it, even better!

 

[tarboy]

I was talking to a a friend regarding his belief in salvation by faith alone, and it was very tiring and draining spiritually. He just kept bombarding me with Scripture I knew how to handle it, but it was just overwhelming. I tried redirecting the conversation and focusing on one thing at a time, but it seemed as if though his mind was already made up. I even told him he was welcome to come home to the Catholic Church and he told me he took that very offensive, and that hewasat home with Jesus Christ. We finished our discussion, and he wants to talk about purgatory next…should i continue? Or is he just looking to “enlighten” me instead of actually listening?

He is evangelizing you, and you are letting him set the agenda.
Since he will have researched the topic on anti-Catholic sites, he will be well armed with scripture that proves his point.

Do you really want to risk damaging your friendship by debating religion?
Instead, evangelize him by showing how you live

 

[mcrow]

James 2:17-18

17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

The above is the silver bullet as far as scripture goes. There is no way you can explain away works and faith but not faith alone with these verses.

 

[Koineman]

The above is the silver bullet as far as scripture goes. There is no way you can explain away works and faith but not faith alone with these verses.

I think what Protestants are against is any teaching that says that our works actually purchase salvation for us in some way, as if Christ’s blood were not enough. I think most Protestants acknowledge the necessity of works in the Christian life, but where we differ from Catholics is on the question of how they are necessary. Are they necessary because they purchase salvation for us, or are they necessary because they are so integral to the new life of the believer that to not have them is to not be a Christian? Regarding that latter point, a simple analogy I thought of recently is that of a cheeseburger. Cheese is a necessary attribute of a cheeseburger. Without cheese, it is no longer a cheeseburger. In that way, then, the cheese is necessary. But does the cheese actually make the cheeseburger? No.

I think of salvation in the same way. Do works pay for our sins? No, only the blood of Christ can do that. So works do not create salvation; Christ’s blood effects that. Only Christ’s blood can eliminate sin and reconcile us to God. Works are necessary, though, because, like the cheese in the cheeseburger, they are so integral to salvation that without them salvation would be counterfeit. It is in that sense that works are necessary.

That’s just my take on it at this time. I thought I’d mention it because I really don’t think that protestants are against works per se. What they are against is the idea that works can contribute to or purchase our salvation.

 

[Chuck_Finley]

Protestants who believe in faith alone tend to ignore James (as described above), and misread Paul. Ask him to provide you examples of Paul stating “faith alone” (both words) in any of his epistles. He won’t be able to.

And what if he asks you to show him the words “Purgatory”, “veneration”, “pope”, “infused righteousness” and “Magisterium”? Would you be able to?

Remember, if you’re sincere, then it’s only reasonable to allow him to try the same tactics with you.

 

[jmcrae]

And what if he asks you to show him the words “Purgatory”, “veneration”, “pope”, “infused righteousness” and “Magisterium”? Would you be able to?

Remember, if you’re sincere, then it’s only reasonable to allow him to try the same tactics with you.

We’re not the ones claiming that everything is made explicitly plain in the Bible; we acknowledge the role of Holy Tradition.

 

[Rainaldo]

Remember, if you’re sincere, then it’s only reasonable to allow him to try the same tactics with you.

This can be a three-handed game, too.

Where is murder in the Constitution?

See, it’s the same idea.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I think what Protestants are against is any teaching that says that our works actually purchase salvation for us in some way, as if Christ’s blood were not enough. I think most Protestants acknowledge the necessity of works in the Christian life, but where we differ from Catholics is on the question of how they are necessary. Are they necessary because they purchase salvation for us, or are they necessary because they are so integral to the new life of the believer that to not have them is to not be a Christian? Regarding that latter point, a simple analogy I thought of recently is that of a cheeseburger. Cheese is a necessary attribute of a cheeseburger. Without cheese, it is no longer a cheeseburger. In that way, then, the cheese is necessary. But does the cheese actually make the cheeseburger? No.

I think of salvation in the same way. Do works pay for our sins? No, only the blood of Christ can do that. So works do not create salvation; Christ’s blood effects that. Only Christ’s blood can eliminate sin and reconcile us to God. Works are necessary, though, because, like the cheese in the cheeseburger, they are so integral to salvation that without them salvation would be counterfeit. It is in that sense that works are necessary.

That’s just my take on it at this time. I thought I’d mention it because I really don’t think that protestants are against works per se. What they are against is the idea that works can contribute to or purchase our salvation.

No Catholic believes that works on their own saves us. You can not work your way into heaven. We are saved by grace through faith. However, the works are necessary because Jesus said so. He said that when we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, etc., we are doing these things to HIM, and if we have not done these things for our brothers and sisters, we will be cast out, He will not recognize us, just as we did not recognize HIM in our sisters and brothers.

To be cast out, not to be recognized by Jesus=no salvation. Now this is straight from the mouth of the Savior, and really is not all that hard to understand. You just have to look at the whole picture, instead of isolated verses.

 

[Koineman]

No Catholic believes that works on their own saves us. You can not work your way into heaven. We are saved by grace through faith. However, the works are necessary because Jesus said so. He said that when we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, etc., we are doing these things to HIM, and if we have not done these things for our brothers and sisters, we will be cast out, He will not recognize us, just as we did not recognize HIM in our sisters and brothers.

Right. Just as long as that passage is not taken to mean, “Your salvation is dependent on these good works,” I’m okay with it. In other words, just because Jesus said that if you don’t do such and such a thing, you will be cast out, does not mean that doing those things causes salvation. Those are actually two different things.

To be cast out, not to be recognized by Jesus=no salvation. Now this is straight from the mouth of the Savior, and really is not all that hard to understand. You just have to look at the whole picture, instead of isolated verses.

I don’t rely on isolated verses, trust me, and in the interest of charity you shouldn’t insinuate that I do. In fact, you focused on just one isolated passage yourself in your post above. I fully believe in examining all that the Bible has to say about a particular topic, looking across the entire landscape of Scripture to think God’s thoughts after Him. That is far from focusing on isolated verses.

 

[tarboy]

Koineman
Church doctrine is pure in teaching we are saved by grace and good works are mearly the result of our obedience to Christ.

However, in practice some catholics may forget the causal relationship and focus on the visible works, that can be seen and measured. This error is what protestants often focus on.

Right. Just as long as that passage is not taken to mean, “Your salvation is dependent on these good works,” I’m okay with it. In other words, just because Jesus said that if you don’t do such and such a thing, you will be cast out, does not mean that doing those things causes salvation. Those are actually two different things.

 

[Koineman]

Koineman
Church doctrine is pure in teaching we are saved by grace and good works are mearly the result of our obedience to Christ.

However, in practice some catholics may forget the causal relationship and focus on the visible works, that can be seen and measured. This error is what protestants often focus on.

Thanks for explaining that, tarboy. One of the big issues between Catholics and Protestants that I am trying to work through is the issue of faith alone.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Right. Just as long as that passage is not taken to mean, “Your salvation is dependent on these good works,” I’m okay with it. In other words, just because Jesus said that if you don’t do such and such a thing, you will be cast out, does not mean that doing those things causes salvation. Those are actually two different things.

I don’t rely on isolated verses, trust me, and in the interest of charity you shouldn’t insinuate that I do. In fact, you focused on just one isolated passage yourself in your post above. I fully believe in examining all that the Bible has to say about a particular topic, looking across the entire landscape of Scripture to think God’s thoughts after Him. That is far from focusing on isolated verses.

Apologies are in order here. The “you” was meant in the generic sense, not you personally. I should have made that clear. However what I posted was from various scriptures, not just one. We are not in disagreement. No one has said good works causes salvation, I don’t think that can be extrapolated from Scripture and is not taught by the Church.

 

[Koineman]

Apologies are in order here. The “you” was meant in the generic sense, not you personally. I should have made that clear.

Thanks for your apology, CB. I’m glad you clarified that. You guys must come across a lot of people who isolate Scriptures.

However what I posted was from various scriptures, not just one. We are not in disagreement. No one has said good works causes salvation, I don’t think that can be extrapolated from Scripture and is not taught by the Church.

Glad to hear it.

One of the reasons I’ve suspected the Catholic Church of teaching that our good works cause salvation is because, as I understand it, Catholic teaching states that one is not finally and fully justified (my paraphrase, forgive me if I have it wrong) until the day of judgment, when God will either pronounce the person just or will condemn the person to hell (or sentence him to purgatory) based on how much/how well he has cooperated with infused grace. If I have it right, this seems to teach that the final deciding factor in anyone’s salvation is their works, their cooperation.