My first Byzantine Divine Liturgy!

[Hesychios]

I was a little surprised there wasn’t a choir - that I could tell - and no organ. There was much singing of course.

The Carpatho-Rusyns are noted for the chanting of the congregation in worship.

Just as in the Latin church for about 1400 years (I am not sure of the dates), musical instruments are not the norm, the singing voice is preferred. Polyphony got it’s start around the 12th or 13th century. The pipe organ in the Mass probably dates from the early Renaissance era and horn and wind instruments about the same time or perhaps a bit later.

Plainchant connects us with an earlier age in worship, when both the east and the west relied on the human voice alone, so it is nice to experience that at least occasionally. The Carpatho-Rusyns began to chant as a congregation in the late 1900’s, before that (in a parish setting) the cantors alone chanted, much as cantors in a synagog would sing solo.

All the beauty and reverence of the old Latin mass, but in English.

That was an interesting comment.

I hope to go again, but I’m too attached to the Latin Mass (available to me every weekend) to make a change at my age :byzsoc: Praised be Jesus Christ!

Well, bloom where you are planted then.

 

[dvdjs]

The Carpatho-Rusyns began to chant as a congregation in the late 1900’s, before that (in a parish setting) the cantors alone chanted, much as cantors in a synagog would sing solo.

Of course you don’t mean “the late 1900’s” - I can personally assure you that that is wrong. But what do you mean?

I think that the congregational singing of litanies, refrains, and hymns - led by a cantor or cantors -was always the norm, even if cantors alone chanted extended scriptural passages or unfamiliar propers. That practice was probably standard, but later gave way to innovations in both east and west with the use of music more suited to trained soloists or choirs. In the early 1900’s, there were calls in Moscow to restore the practice of congregational singing. See also e.g., :
acrod.org/ministries/music/plainchant/congregationalsinging

I would be very interested in seeing your sources for the suggestion that congregational singing is a relatively recent development.

 

[lynnet]

Hi everyone, just wanted to share my thoughts on my first Byzantine-rite divine liturgy.

I’ve been thinking of attending a Divine Liturgy at the Byzantine Catholic church. It’s and hour and a half drive which is probably why I haven’t gone already.

I’ve been listening to “The Light of the East” nearly every Sunday. Have you seen Fr. Thomas J. Loya’s website: byzantinecatholic.com ?
He has there photos of the inside of his church with beautiful iconography. If I were to go to Divine Liturgy there, I think that I would have a difficult time keeping my mind on the Liturgy itself. Are other Byzantine churches’ iconography that elaborate?

I was confirmed and had my first communion this Easter Vigil in the Roman Catholic church. I can receive communion in the Byzantine rite, correct? I think that I was told or read that but I just want to make sure.

Thank you,
Lynnet

 

[KyivAndrew]

I was confirmed and had my first communion this Easter Vigil in the Roman Catholic church. I can receive communion in the Byzantine rite, correct? I think that I was told or read that but I just want to make sure.

Thank you,
Lynnet

Yes. Just as I can receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church. All part of the same Church.

 

[Hesychios]

Of course you don’t mean “the late 1900’s” - I can personally assure you that that is wrong. But what do you mean?

That was a typo.

I meant the late 1800’s, or the late 19th century, and I apparently conflated the two. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the monasteries the full house would chant, but I am referring to the parish congregations, as far as I know.

I don’t remember where or when I picked up that information, but if I find it I’ll post on it.

It surprised me that congregational chanting of prostopinije wasn’t very old, just between 100 and 150 years, I guess, so that is what I remembered. If you have better information I will gladly stand for correction.

The style, of course, is much older.

 

[dvdjs]

The link I posted gives the sense that the tradition of congregational singing is the default from antiquity.

Perhaps your source is the BCC leaflet on Prostopinije:
carpatho-rusyn.org/spirit/chant.htm

Besides the Holy Liturgy there are many other services and celebrations in the Byzantine Rite that contain a great wealth of liturgical hymns. The people learned to sing some of these hymns, especially those most often repeated, from memory. But, truly, the majority of them were chanted by the cantor alone, since only he had the proper liturgical books available. It was Rev. Andrew Popovich (1809-1898), the pastor of Velika Kopanya, Ugocha district, who placed a Zbornik into the hands of the Rusyn people, in which he collected the hymns for Sundays and solemn Feastdays throughout the entire liturgical year. It was printed for the first time in Vienna in 1866 under the title-Velikij Zbornik (Large Collection . . .).

Father Popovich also taught his parishioners how to use the Zbornik and how to sing the various parts of the liturgical services. Soon the faithful started to take an active part in these services, praising God 'with one voice and one heart."

The “fever” of congregational singing rapidly spread from Velika Kopanya to the entire eparchy and Father Popovich’s Velikij Zbornik had to be reprinted several times (in 1887, 1888, 1906, etc.). At last the Carpathian Mountains re-echoed with the intoxicating beauty of the praises of God.

The key phrase here is … “Besides the Holy Liturgy …”. Indeed the article notes earlier that the tradition of congregational singing was an oral one that required memorization, and thus was probably limited to ordinaries of the liturgy and other, commonly done services - as I suggested above. This still leave “most” of the singing by cantors. With the publication of the Zbornik one could have the congregation also joining in the propers including the stichera, aposticha, praises, irmoi and so forth. This extension may have not happened until the later 1800’s, but the tradition of congregational singing of whatever they could was probably deeply rooted at that point - which is why the zbornik would be in such demand.

 

[Aramis]

Michael: there are much older references to congregational singing by slavics than 19th C; a 16th C letter refers to the practice. I can’t find the sourcebook at the moment, but it’s one of those issues where it comes and goes throughout the church as a whole; just not the whole church on one spot in at the same time…

 

[ciero]

The link I posted gives the sense that the tradition of congregational singing is the default from antiquity.

Perhaps your source is the BCC leaflet on Prostopinije:
carpatho-rusyn.org/spirit/chant.htm

The key phrase here is … “Besides the Holy Liturgy …”. Indeed the article notes earlier that the tradition of congregational singing was an oral one that required memorization, and thus was probably limited to ordinaries of the liturgy and other, commonly done services - as I suggested above. This still leave “most” of the singing by cantors. With the publication of the Zbornik one could have the congregation also joining in the propers including the stichera, aposticha, praises, irmoi and so forth. This extension may have not happened until the later 1800’s, but the tradition of congregational singing of whatever they could was probably deeply rooted at that point - which is why the zbornik would be in such demand.

Very interesting theory…but as most of the folks were illiterate I really dont see much truth to it.

 

[dvdjs]

Very interesting theory…but as most of the folks were illiterate I really dont see much truth to it.

I actually had the same thought, when I read this link. In fact, I had read elsewhere that adult literacy in Zakarpatskaja reached 50% only in the post-WWI, Soviet era. However, it is not unlikely that by the time of the printing of the Zbornik in the late 1800’s there was a cohort of literate people, especially in larger towns, who for whom these books would help advance the congregational chanting to less frequently taken material. The ordinary in the DL would nevertheless be done by memory with or without books and/or literacy. For the most part, it still is - which is one of the reasons why any change leads to kvetching, and why we still don’t do so well on propers, despite our finally having all of the written music available.

The key point is that literacy and publishing was not a requisite for congregational singing. Thus date of publication of the Zbornik cannot be considered to mark its beginning.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I attended my first Byzantine Divine Liturgy yesterday, in a very small church. There were about 20 people present. It was in English and thankfully I did not find the chant too hard to follow and was able to participate more than I thought I would. They used little booklets from which I was able to follow along. I crossed myself and said “Lord have Mercy” more times than I can remember.

There was no music and no choir and no Cantor that I could see. Just the priest and the congregation. There were pews and to my surprise a few portable kneelers in each row. I was surprised to see (from what I have read here) that they knelt during the Consecration (I don’t know the proper term) and also after having received Communion. The priest distributed by intinction, but did not use a spoon, he dipped the bread into the chalice. I did remember not to say “Amen”.

The priest held a gold cross during the homily, and after the dismissal eveyone lined up and went forward to where the priest was and kissed the cross and received some holy bread. Then they met for coffee, but I had to leave.

I went to church 1/2 hour before the DL because Father told me they say the Rosary then. However, this week, because of the upcoming Feast of the Dormition, there was instead a Paraclis (that is how it was spelled) to Mary, which the priest chanted. It was very beautiful and long. There priest wore beautiful blue vestments, I assume that was in honor of Mary. They began a 2 week fast in preparation for the Feast and Father spoke on fasting.

I did enjoy it very much and was impressed with it’s beauty. I did, however, miss the music. I will go again when I get the opportunity. I had one negative experience, a man behind me in line for the holy bread asked me if it was my first time at a DL and why did I want to come. Turned out he was a member of my parish and said he didn’t like my parish, so he came to this one. He seemed to want to elaborate on this, so I politely cut off the conversation and that was one of the reasons I didn’t go to coffee. I don’t think Father, who is friend of mine, would approve of a conversation like that. That was something I didn’t need to hear.

There is a large Maronite population around here, and I plan to attend one of their liturgies also. I know a lot of them, so I won’t be a total stranger.

 

[Hesychios]

Very interesting theory…but as most of the folks were illiterate I really dont see much truth to it.

Yes, I think that text is what I read long ago, but I am not sure if that is the site where I read it.

I don’t think the theory presented is that far-fetched. It wouldn’t take that many people in a congregation to be literate before the whole congregation was singing. I doubt that most people can read music even today, and when I was in choir a surprisingly high percentage of my choirmates could not actually read music.

The theory had to have come from somewhere, and until proven otherwise I think that it is as valid as anyone else’s speculations on the subject, considering that the article comes from a Ruthenian source and the author felt confident enough in his own information to write on a subject none of us have direct experience with.

I have (since this little dust-up) found it on another site, the exact same wording, that site happens to be the Metropolitan Cantor Institute for your church.

 

[dvdjs]

Yes, I think that text is what I read long ago, but I am not sure if that is the site where I read it.

I don’t think the theory presented is that far-fetched. It wouldn’t take that many people in a congregation to be literate before the whole congregation was singing. I doubt that most people can read music even today, and when I was in choir a surprisingly high percentage of my choirmates could not actually read music.

The theory had to have come from somewhere, and until proven otherwise I think that it is as valid as anyone else’s speculations on the subject, considering that the article comes from a Ruthenian source and the author felt confident enough in his own information to write on a subject none of us have direct experience with.

I have (since this little dust-up) found it on another site, the exact same wording, that site happens to be the Metropolitan Cantor Institute for your church.

I am not sure which theory either Ciero or you are referring to, but your idea:

… Carpatho-Rusyns began to chant as a congregation in the late 1[8]00’s, before that (in a parish setting) the cantors alone chanted, much as cantors in a synagog would sing solo.

is a mistaken interpretation of what is written in the leaflet (from the BCC, whatever website reproduces it). The importance of the Zbornik for congregational singing, was for singing “Besides the Holy Liturgy”. There is no suggestion in the leaflet that the liturgy was not sung congregationally before the publication of the Zbornik. Indeed the discussion of the oral transmission of folk and liturgical music among cantors and faithful at times long before the Zbornik was published suggests otherwise. The leaflet provides no basis at all for your idea.

 

[Aramis]

I was surprised to see (from what I have read here) that they knelt during the Consecration (I don’t know the proper term)

Anaphora

and also after having received Communion. The priest distributed by intinction, but did not use a spoon, he dipped the bread into the chalice. I did remember not to say “Amen”.

Melkite?

Kneeling is unusual; a Latinization. (Prostrations, however…)

There priest wore beautiful blue vestments, I assume that was in honor of Mary.

You assume correctly. Blue vestments are encouraged on Marian feasts.

They began a 2 week fast in preparation for the Feast and Father spoke on fasting.

The feast is the Dormition of Mary… that is, her transference from life to afterlife… Her “Falling Asleep in the Lord.” It’s a short fast, but it’s a reminder of Mary’s importance and we fast in honor of her and her willing participation in God’s plan of Salvation.

I did enjoy it very much and was impressed with it’s beauty. I did, however, miss the music. I will go again when I get the opportunity. I had one negative experience, a man behind me in line for the holy bread asked me if it was my first time at a DL and why did I want to come. Turned out he was a member of my parish and said he didn’t like my parish, so he came to this one. He seemed to want to elaborate on this, so I politely cut off the conversation and that was one of the reasons I didn’t go to coffee. I don’t think Father, who is friend of mine, would approve of a conversation like that. That was something I didn’t need to hear.

Next time, just politely say you’d rather not discuss it, and go do the social anyway.

There is a large Maronite population around here, and I plan to attend one of their liturgies also. I know a lot of them, so I won’t be a total stranger.