My First Christian - Jewish Debate (where did I go wrong?)

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Thanks for the replies.

Another significant point by my adversary was that “God doesn’t say anything that He doesn’t mean forever and ever.” Referring, of course, to the Covenant with the Jewish people. I know there are examples on the Hebrew Scriptures of God instructing people to do something “forever” and later changing His instructions, not because He “changed His mind” but because of changed circumstances. Unfortunately, the best example I could think of off the top of my head was God saying He would spare Sodom for the sake of 50 righteous men, then changing it to 45, and so on.
 
I’m a veteran at debating fundamentalists and I’m reasonably experienced at debating atheists, but recently I had my first internet debate of “Christianity and Judaism” (I refuse to put “versus”). I did, eh, okay. Maybe you guys could tell me where I went wrong. This debate was over 200 posts, but here are the major issues.

1). I mostly feel that I lost because every time I cited the Hebrew Scriptures, my adversary would smugly reply that I couldn’t possibly understand what the verse meant because I don’t speak Hebrew. I pointed out that by that reasoning, he had no standing to comment on the New Testament unless he spoke Greek. He didn’t get it. What am I supposed to do? I’m 44 years old, I’m not gonna learn another language now.
  1. He claimed that “every Jewish soul was present when God gave the law to Moses.” Like, even his own soul was present, even though he wasn’t conceived until thousands of years later. Is that really a Jewish belief? Found where?
  2. He asserted that Christians worship a “different god.” Not because we worship Jesus – I mean, he thinks we don’t worship the God of Abraham at all, but that instead we worship a pagan deity. Is this a common opinion? I’d never heard that one before. He said that in the First Commandment, when the Lord says, “I am the Lord who brought your ancestors out of Egypt…,” proves that YHWH isn’t my Lord because my ancestors weren’t brought out of Egypt – therefore I must worship some other god. (that’s when my head exploded).
  3. He thinks the Virgin Birth was stolen from myths about Zeus impregnating human women. Moreover, he argues that this would mean God committed adultery with Mary!!! I explained to him over and over that we don’t think God had sexual relations with Mary, and even explained about the sh’khinah glory cloud. See back to #1 LOL.
  4. I easily won on accusations of worshipping statues, etc mostly because I have debated those points with fundamentalists countless times.
  5. Every so often, my adversary would say, “I read your posts and realize you just don’t know the God of Abraham at all. Your concept of God is totally foreign to Judaism.” How am I supposed to respond to such vague, conclusory comments?
(laughing aloud…)

Oh…

HOOO!!!

I’m sorry. I really am…but…he he he HA hooo…

(wiping eyes…)

I can’t possibly explain in writing my reaction to your post; except…

Go through it and substitute the words “Catholic” or “Fundamentalist Christian” for your Jewish friend, and then substitute any Mormon they are criticising for yourself, and you have pretty much nailed a typical discussion.

YOUR bemusement and bewilderment echo ours, and for the exact same reasons.

So…welcome to my world, sir. 😉
 
The problem is, Sam, that, while proud statements of belief and claims that everybody who doesn’t immediately believe is just naughty (or blind) may be good rousing stuff and make believers feel very pleased with themselves, it’s not really a path to discussion of religion or understanding of other religions (or anything else in human discourse really) outside those who believe in the first place.

If every discussion of religion has, on one side, the sole purpose of conversion then the tendency on the other side is likely to suggest: “Go away silly person and leave me alone!”
Don’t you believe in the exchange of information? Telling your story to the other side and listening to their story? That’s what I’m here for. I don’t know everything ( as you seem to do ). I’m here to learn and to relate my side and experiences.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom haMeshiach
 
Don’t you believe in the exchange of information? Telling your story to the other side and listening to their story? That’s what I’m here for. I don’t know everything ( as you seem to do ). I’m here to learn and to relate my side and experiences.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom haMeshiach
Exchange of information is one thing. But if people sense that you are out to convert them, and aren’t really interested in their POV except as a vehicle for that, they don’t like it. You will get treated like the proverbial Mormon at the door.

It is much better if you can discuss these ideas with people in the context of the mutual search for truth, or at least for understanding the other person, with no other agenda. THough it seems paradoxical, it is actually a much better vehicle for conversion in most cases. But only if it is sincere.
 
Thanks for the replies.

Another significant point by my adversary was that “God doesn’t say anything that He doesn’t mean forever and ever.” Referring, of course, to the Covenant with the Jewish people. I know there are examples on the Hebrew Scriptures of God instructing people to do something “forever” and later changing His instructions, not because He “changed His mind” but because of changed circumstances. Unfortunately, the best example I could think of off the top of my head was God saying He would spare Sodom for the sake of 50 righteous men, then changing it to 45, and so on.
well, the covenant was fulfilled, the Messiah has come
the Jewish Laws were made by Moses. that is why we are not compelled to follow them. its the 10 commandments that we follow, because they come from God
he’s right, God doesn’t change. but we have to separate whats from God, and what came from man as an interpretation of what came from God
 
Exchange of information is one thing. But if people sense that you are out to convert them, and aren’t really interested in their POV except as a vehicle for that, they don’t like it. You will get treated like the proverbial Mormon at the door.

It is much better if you can discuss these ideas with people in the context of the mutual search for truth, or at least for understanding the other person, with no other agenda. THough it seems paradoxical, it is actually a much better vehicle for conversion in most cases. But only if it is sincere.
Bluegoat,

You make a good point here. Though I know my friend Javl has the best of intentions; and I think he truly cares about the individual.

My Jewish friends are a retired couple who live next door. They treat my son and me like family and it is a joy to have them in our lives. We have had many long discussions about religion; though neither of us attempt to convert the other. I have learned a great deal about Judaism from them; and I pray, through God’s help, they have learned some good things about Christianity from me. We do all share a deep love and respect for one another.

They’ve told me some horror stories about Christians, who have tried to convert them. Basically they all ended the same. When the Christians found they would not convert, they dropped them; and that was the end of the relationship.

A number of times on the forums; I’ve seen a quote by St. Francis of Assisi: “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” I think when we are able to love others through Christ, we become the most authentic witness to the Gospel. I cringe when I think of how often I fail in this respect.

When I was in my early 20’s (about a century ago ;)); I spent time as a volunteer in an Indian ghetto in Arizona. A Christian man and his family ran a mission there. When the family first arrived; the Native American leader told the missionary that he must work to help the people, for one full year, before he was allowed to speak one word about his God. The missionary agreed and honored the request. This turned into a lifelong Christian ministry. I’d say the Native American leader was a very wise man.

Anna
 
I’m a veteran at debating fundamentalists and I’m reasonably experienced at debating atheists, but recently I had my first internet debate of “Christianity and Judaism” (I refuse to put “versus”). I did, eh, okay. Maybe you guys could tell me where I went wrong. This debate was over 200 posts, but here are the major issues.

1). I mostly feel that I lost because every time I cited the Hebrew Scriptures, my adversary would smugly reply that I couldn’t possibly understand what the verse meant because I don’t speak Hebrew. I pointed out that by that reasoning, he had no standing to comment on the New Testament unless he spoke Greek. He didn’t get it. What am I supposed to do? I’m 44 years old, I’m not gonna learn another language now.
  1. He claimed that “every Jewish soul was present when God gave the law to Moses.” Like, even his own soul was present, even though he wasn’t conceived until thousands of years later. Is that really a Jewish belief? Found where?
  2. He asserted that Christians worship a “different god.” Not because we worship Jesus – I mean, he thinks we don’t worship the God of Abraham at all, but that instead we worship a pagan deity. Is this a common opinion? I’d never heard that one before. He said that in the First Commandment, when the Lord says, “I am the Lord who brought your ancestors out of Egypt…,” proves that YHWH isn’t my Lord because my ancestors weren’t brought out of Egypt – therefore I must worship some other god. (that’s when my head exploded).
  3. He thinks the Virgin Birth was stolen from myths about Zeus impregnating human women. Moreover, he argues that this would mean God committed adultery with Mary!!! I explained to him over and over that we don’t think God had sexual relations with Mary, and even explained about the sh’khinah glory cloud. See back to #1 LOL.
  4. I easily won on accusations of worshipping statues, etc mostly because I have debated those points with fundamentalists countless times.
  5. Every so often, my adversary would say, “I read your posts and realize you just don’t know the God of Abraham at all. Your concept of God is totally foreign to Judaism.” How am I supposed to respond to such vague, conclusory comments?
  1. Yeah, when someone says this it’s truly upsetting. I’m reminded of the numerous times a Catholic has said similar to me, “you don’t have the magesterium so you can’t possibly understand what these verses really mean” or a Protestant who says “you don’t have a diploma from any church…”. It is rather smug and prideful.
  2. Here, he shows that he (himself) doesn’t even have a good understanding of “Body, Spirit and Soul” from the Hebrew perspective. From the Hebrew perspective, “body” + “spirit” = “soul”.
If his body wasn’t there, he didn’t yet exist there (as a soul). What he’s mistaking is the concept of being in the “mind of God” (which was an IMPORTANT concept to the Hebrew people). In other words, God had everyone of us, each individually and SPECIFICALLY in mind when he gave the laws to Moses. If you understand this concept, I can freely say “indeed we all were there (in the mind of God) at that very moment on Sinai”.
  1. Avoiding the “pagan deity” discussion for now, it’s quite possible that your ancestors were of the same Israelites. His comment here shows that he (mistakenly) believes that only the Jewish people descended from Israelites.
While all Jews are Israelites, not all Israelites are Jews (factually). Share with him that Israel split into two kingdoms: Judah (2 tribes) & Ephrahim (10 tribes). Judah was captured by Babylon but was allowed to return to their land [Jerusalem]. From Judah came the Jews.

Hundreds of years earlier Ephrahim was captured by the Assyrians but was NOT freed. These lost tribes assimilated and lost their identity (Book of Hosea), traveling North and West to become the Europeans and Gentile nations (which is the reason for the Messiah’s mission to the Gentiles…many are legitimately part of Israel by blood; God’s people by heritage…and God will keep his promises to restore Israel).
  1. …well I’m going to have to agree with him on this one.
  2. He may have some justification in this comment because it is next to impossible to understand many of the things the Messiah did without understanding the Hebrew mindset & culture.
Judaism needs the fulfillment of Christ…and Christianity needs the foundation of Judaism.

As far as the promise not to destroy S&G, note it is Abraham who keeps asking favor for a lower and lower number of people. The last number Abraham gets down to is 10 people. If God can find 10 righteous people in the city, Abraham asked not to destroy it…but God didn’t even find that. Lot and his family made “4 people”, and not even they were righteous (as Lot offered his daughters to the mob, the wife looked back against commandment and the daughters committed incest with Lot later on). God never changed; He was going to destroy the city knowing there weren’t any good people there. Gen. 18:20-32

I think a better example you’re looking for is the “Sabbath (Saturday)”, as this is a law “forever”.
 
Don’t you believe in the exchange of information? Telling your story to the other side and listening to their story? That’s what I’m here for. I don’t know everything ( as you seem to do ). I’m here to learn and to relate my side and experiences.
It may have escaped your notice that I’ve been on CAF for three and a half years - a Jewish poster on a Catholic message board for three and a half years tends to learn quite a bit about Catholics. Indeed, in all, I’ve spent something like a decade and a half discussing religion on a whole range of religious boards and lists so I’ve been listening for quite a long time and it’s been rather interesting one way or another. Meanwhile, in all this time, I’ve never tried to persuade anybody that their religion is in some way deficient or that, because they believe what they believe, that they’re in some way ‘doomed’.

In fairness, I do have to say that at no point have I been seeking another religion and, after all these years, I’m not so much interested in what people believe as the consequences of what people believe.
 
Thanks for the replies.

Another significant point by my adversary was that “God doesn’t say anything that He doesn’t mean forever and ever.” Referring, of course, to the Covenant with the Jewish people. I know there are examples on the Hebrew Scriptures of God instructing people to do something “forever” and later changing His instructions, not because He “changed His mind” but because of changed circumstances. Unfortunately, the best example I could think of off the top of my head was God saying He would spare Sodom for the sake of 50 righteous men, then changing it to 45, and so on.
Perhaps the answer is that you need to know more about Judaism itself before getting too deeply involved in such discussions - you might try a site like Judaism 101, for example.
 
It may have escaped your notice that I’ve been on CAF for three and a half years - a Jewish poster on a Catholic message board for three and a half years tends to learn quite a bit about Catholics. Indeed, in all, I’ve spent something like a decade and a half discussing religion on a whole range of religious boards and lists so I’ve been listening for quite a long time and it’s been rather interesting one way or another. Meanwhile, in all this time, I’ve never tried to persuade anybody that their religion is in some way deficient or that, because they believe what they believe, that they’re in some way ‘doomed’.

In fairness, I do have to say that at no point have I been seeking another religion and, after all these years, I’m not so much interested in what people believe as the consequences of what people believe.
I have a very close friend who is Hasidim. We discuss religion many times but do not try to convert each other. The more we learn about each other’s beliefs the closer in friendship we get. I have learned much from him, and he from me. I have attended Saturday services and have celebrated Jewish holidays with him and his family, and he has been to mass with me and mine. We have a fruitful ongoing dialogue.

I do not try to convert anyone, that God will do. I just try to get non-Catholics to know and understand Catholicism and to dispell the lies, myths, misunderstandings, etc, about Catholicism and Christianity in general. And yes, I’ve locked horns with many who refuse to listen and do try to convert me. Over the years I have learned much about other’s beliefs, and why they believe as they do. I’m sure they have also learned from me.

As for Judaism, I have taken a couple of courses taught by Rabbi Noah Golinken ( whom you should Know via his “Shalom Aleichem” prayer books ) and have also learned much.
I have, and read, books on Judaism and its history from a secular and religious point of view. At present I am trying to learn Hebrew so that I may read the scriptures in the original language.

You are not the first Jew ( Jewess ) to react to me as you have, and my reponse has developed over time. If I insulted you, I apologize. I do not know how much you know about Christianity, but if possible I would like to dialogue with you. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
There are a number of pieces of advice I would give someone in your situation, Gamera, speaking as someone who came to the Catholic Faith through studying (Orthodox/Hasidic) Judaism.

First and foremost you have to know the particular Jewish tradition that the people you are speaking to hail from. A Reform Jew is going to have a different perspective from a Conservative, and both groups will have significant differences with typical Orthodox Judaism, and even within Orthodox Judaism you will find a big difference in perspective between Modern Orthodox and Hasidic Jews. Unless you have a good foundation for understanding the particular path of Judaism you are engaging, you will be immediately lost in the dialogue.

Which brings me to the second bit of advice: dialogue, don’t debate. If you approached the discussion in the same manner that you might approach a “Scripture-proofing” debate with a Fundamentalist Protestant Christion, then you’re not going to get anywhere. As Kaninchen pointed out, you’re dealing with a fundamentally different paradigm of belief. Questions like “who is saved?” just don’t compute in any path of Judaism. A better approach would be to focus on humanity’s relationship with God in general, and what our response should be to God’s self-revelation.

Thirdly, while it’s certainly true that there is a fundamental paradigm difference between Judaism and Christianity, it is important to remember the reason for this paradigm difference is the coming of Messiah itself. In Judaism, particularily Orthodox and Hasidic Judaism, there is supposed to be a paradigm difference between pre- and post-Messianic Judaism. Apostolic Christianity (Catholic and Orthodox Christianity, specifically) are historically rooted in this necessary paradigm shift; the Jews who founded the Church were openly dealing with the reality of the changes in Judaism that come with the revelation and coming of the Messiah. It’s a mistake to assume that modern Jews of any stripe will recognize Christianity as “Judaism + Jesus”, since there is no clear concensus, even among Messianic-oriented Jews, of what “Judaism + Messiah” will actually be like, and how it will engage the world of Gentiles. Remember, this was a HUGE issue even within the first days of Christianity, with the Book of Acts and many of the Epistles wrestling with this very question of perspectives. One only has to look at the debate over Judaizing within the New Testament to see that it took a lot of soul-searching and debate (and, I would say, the Inspiration of God) to settle the question of how to approach the world in light of the revelation of the Messiah.

When you engage Judaism you are coming from a tradition that has settled this paradigmatic question thousands of years ago (speaking again of Apostolic Christian Tradition) and moved on to other issues, and certain things that seem “crystal clear” to you are based on this fact will not be clear at all to any Jews you speak to, regardless of their particular tradition of Judaism. Some things only become “clear” precisely because of the coming of the Messiah, and there’s really no way of arguing about them with modern Judaism because there is a whole aspect of Judaism that “hasn’t happened yet” according to their beliefs (well, most of their beliefs, there are some Hasidic Jews who DO believe the Messiah has already come, but that’s a whole other issue).

On top of all that, Judaism hasn’t been at a stand-still since the time of Jesus, and there have been many developments and approaches that have occured over time, some of them even in response to Christianity. Simply regarding modern Judaism as “Christianity without Christ” misses the fact that even in the time of Jesus Judaism was not a singular entity; we see in the Gospels, for example, that there were huge differences between the Sadducees, the Pharisees, the Zealots, and the “Baptizers” (referring to John the Baptist’s group, which may or may not have been Essenes). Judaism, since that time, has witnessed the elimination of the Temple, the disappearance of the Sadducees and Essenes, the rise of Reform Judaism, Zionism, and Hasidism, and countless other important things. To miss out on these developments is to basically completely misunderstand who you’re talking to; one only has to look at the debates between Jews and Christians two thousand years ago versus the debates today to see that expectations and world-views have indeed shifted.

As for the particular points you raised, I won’t address them now because I don’t know what tradition of Judaism the person was coming from. I also don’t know how valuable it would be to argue some of the points. Hope this helps somewhat!

Peace and God bless!
 
There is only one example of a virgin birth that I could find, and it was the birth of Romulus and Remus by a Vestal Virgin by the god Mars. You can use Google Books to find ‘Religions of Rome’ by Simon Price. Either Virgil or Ovid records the story.
Just to point out there is at least one myth that has Zeus impregnating a virgin, although the name of the woman involved completely escapes my mind right now. As for Romulus and Remus, the myth speaks of Mars seducing the woman, and implies more, so it’s not really a “virgin” birth.
 
Discussions on religion will (obviously) vary depending on who’s doing the discussing and what their particular favourite issues are but I think that there are kinds of ‘meta-discussion’ problems that go on in discussions between Christians and Jews that get hidden by ‘particulars’.

Christians tend to think that Christianity is Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism is Christianity minus Jesus and they are not. They are paradigmatically different religions, they don’t work in the same way - what may be central issues in one may be totally irrelevant in the other - an example would be the Christian concept of ‘Salvation’ which is pretty meaningless to us Jews who don’t see what the fuss is at all.

Again, central to most discussions is the question of the ‘New Testament’ and, to us, it’s a bit like a Catholic talking to a Muslim who thinks that the Qur’an is revelation or a Mormon who thinks that the ‘Book of Mormon’ is revelation. It may be fascinating to people who enjoy literary criticism but, basically, we don’t believe a word of it (being a bit blunt).

Given what I’ve said above, you’ll see that I rather agree with your adversary. It’s not that Christians or Muslims worship a different God, it’s that the whole concept of God is different - much to the bemusement of all parties.

From experience, discussions are usually best between parties who accept that these ‘meta-problems’ exist from the start.
Kaninchen - Hi!

You make some very good points about discussing religion with one another. There is one thing in particular I would like you to explain.

You mentioned that Jews don’t place value on the concept of salvation. Because Jews have always awaited a Messiah, what role will s/he play when they come if it is not one of salvation?

Thanks!
 
Just to point out there is at least one myth that has Zeus impregnating a virgin, although the name of the woman involved completely escapes my mind right now. As for Romulus and Remus, the myth speaks of Mars seducing the woman, and implies more, so it’s not really a “virgin” birth.
It is in either Ovid or Virgil, both 1st century BC poets/historians. A lot of what they wrote can’t be taken as real historical comentary because they didn’t even mean it as such. They were often being satirical. That said, the mother of Romulus and Remus was a virgin and did claim to haev been visited by Mars. But, our Roman writer doesn’t necessarily believe it. In fact, he implies that she made up the story to explain her sudden pregnancy when she was supposed to be a virgin. That’s the only one example I could find.
 
I may be a bit late in the discussion. I read a few of the earlier posts. I have learned Biblical Hebrew. I was interested in the comment the Abraham had a people or nation. It was inferred that this referred specifically to the Jewish people, one people. The Hebrew being rendered in the singular form.

I disagree with that. While because of the whole account of Abram, and the sign of that covenant being circumcision, I don’t agree that it eliminates the Christian people. There would have to be a covenantal continuity with Abraham as in the Hebrew scriptures. For that reason I would not include Islam.

The reason as I see it is in the Hebrew text itself. Genesis 17:4 - The Lord says that ‘you will be a father of a multitude of nations’. Plural in the Hebrew ‘Goyim’. Also this is the Hebrew word used for those NOT Jewish. Goyim is Gentile. So in fact many Gentile nations.

This plurality is repeated at ‘Goyim’ plural gentile nations in Genesis 17:6.

I think the Lord was ‘seeing’ beyond the establishment of the particular nation of Israel to the Israel which was a light to the nations. The Davidic covenant, where all will come to the mountain of the Lord. Israel in particular is the nation from which Abraham’s covenant reached from and gathered to the Lord, those who belong to Him. We in turn hope for salvation for all people, so we shall have to wait for the final chapter at the Parousia.

Because of the covenant being established here, clearly there would have to be a faithful continuity with that covenant.

As Pope Benedict says, Judaism can understand Jesus as someone from whom Judaism was established in the wider world beyond the land of Israel.

I am fascinated with the Judeo Christian story. The Jewish covenants remain valid. Though Jesus has fulfilled them they are not replaced. Rather they are gathered together in the person of Jesus as their final meaning. We are in a time of eschatalogy and there is much more to be finally revealed.

What concerns me most is that the very close (from Christianity anyway) relationship with Judaism is imposed on from Islam, which does not recognise the prophets, Jesus or any of the Biblical texts. This is a distinctly different and very distant relationship through the humanity of peoples and not the covenants of religion.
 
Just one more point. The Jewish person being debated, talked about his soul as being present? I think when the covenant with Moses was established?

I don’t think that would be a problem, if we consider that God is eternal and we are all ‘remembered’ by God.

All time is in eternity? If it wasn’t God wouldn’t know how time ends? (Just a thought).

We are not preexistant of course. If that was what was meant then no that is not correct. But I am a thought of God and always was. My moment of creation was in the temporal order when I was conceived. But I was in the mind of God, who is eternal.

Perhaps a little wiggle room?
 
You mentioned that Jews don’t place value on the concept of salvation. Because Jews have always awaited a Messiah, what role will s/he play when they come if it is not one of salvation?
From what?

Before you give me all the Christian reasons for the need for ‘salvation’, try to think about what a religion that didn’t believe in such a need would look like. 😉

For a quick rundown of Messiah try here. Briefly, it’s world peace, the world gets to know God and we Jews all get to go to Israel (Abraham should have stuck out for somewhere much nicer, like Italy!) and so on.
 
From what?

Before you give me all the Christian reasons for the need for ‘salvation’, try to think about what a religion that didn’t believe in such a need would look like. 😉

For a quick rundown of Messiah try here. Briefly, it’s world peace, the world gets to know God and we Jews all get to go to Israel (Abraham should have stuck out for somewhere much nicer, like Italy!) and so on.
Kaninchen - I have celebrated Passover many times in Jewish homes and have noted the fifth cup of wine set out for Elijah. I know that Elijah is to announce the Messiah when he finally comes, however, I never really thought about the role of the Messiah in Judaism.

After reading your comment about salvation I wanted to put the two together.

Do the Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed Jews agree on the role of the Messiah?

Thanks for the link. It was very helpful. I often read Judaism 101 before responding to some of my posts.

(I have never been to Italy but look forward to it someday when the kids are grown. I’d like to spend a long time there seeing the sights and eating the good food. For now, I’ll just have to watch Lidia’s Italy! I also look forward to visiting Israel and seeing all of the holy sights. For now, I will just have to read Biblical Archaelogical Review online!)
 
Originally posted by lax16
(I have never been to Italy but look forward to it someday when the kids are grown. I’d like to spend a long time there seeing the sights and eating the good food. For now, I’ll just have to watch Lidia’s Italy! I also look forward to visiting Israel and seeing all of the holy sights. For now, I will just have to read Biblical Archaelogical Review online!)
Just straying off the thread to say that Italy may be nice but Sicily is BEEAYYOOOTIFUL!!! ( Take it from a Sicilian ). Viva la Sicilia!

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
1). I mostly feel that I lost because every time I cited the Hebrew Scriptures, my adversary would smugly reply that I couldn’t possibly understand what the verse meant because I don’t speak Hebrew. I pointed out that by that reasoning, he had no standing to comment on the New Testament unless he spoke Greek. He didn’t get it. What am I supposed to do? I’m 44 years old, I’m not gonna learn another language now.
Well, that will put you at a disadvantage debating with Jews. Language matters.
And who says you can’t learn another language at 44? My mother is 65 and still learning new languages.
  1. He claimed that “every Jewish soul was present when God gave the law to Moses.” Like, even his own soul was present, even though he wasn’t conceived until thousands of years later. Is that really a Jewish belief? Found where?
In the Talmud somewhere. It’s a standard belief.
  1. He asserted that Christians worship a “different god.” Not because we worship Jesus – I mean, he thinks we don’t worship the God of Abraham at all, but that instead we worship a pagan deity. Is this a common opinion? I’d never heard that one before. He said that in the First Commandment, when the Lord says, “I am the Lord who brought your ancestors out of Egypt…,” proves that YHWH isn’t my Lord because my ancestors weren’t brought out of Egypt – therefore I must worship some other god. (that’s when my head exploded).
That’s a very polemical stance to take.
  1. He thinks the Virgin Birth was stolen from myths about Zeus impregnating human women.
That’s certainly a common opinion among non-Christians generally. It especially makes sense to Jews, since they can’t figure out why Jews or people claiming to be Jews would come up with such a bizarre, pagan-seeming belief!
Moreover, he argues that this would mean God committed adultery with Mary!!! I explained to him over and over that we don’t think God had sexual relations with Mary, and even explained about the sh’khinah glory cloud.
Probably “explaining” to him about the meaning of Hebrew terms is the wrong approach.

Why exactly did you get into this anyway?

What were you trying to accomplish?

In any Christian-Jewish discussion, you have to do a lot of work to convince the other side of your goodwill.

Edwin
 
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