My First Christian - Jewish Debate (where did I go wrong?)

[Contarini]

The reason as I see it is in the Hebrew text itself. Genesis 17:4 - The Lord says that ‘you will be a father of a multitude of nations’. Plural in the Hebrew ‘Goyim’. Also this is the Hebrew word used for those NOT Jewish. Goyim is Gentile. So in fact many Gentile nations.

This plurality is repeated at ‘Goyim’ plural gentile nations in Genesis 17:6.

It so happens that I was studying with a rabbi this afternoon (we were reading Rashi’s commentary on Genesis), and this very point came up (in a quotation from the Psalms speaking of the “goyim.”). The rabbi said that the use of “goyim” to mean “nations other than Israel” was fairly late. I told him that Christians in fact used this exclusive sense to argue that passages speaking of the “nations” were talking about us, and he was surprised and interested to hear this.

I think you are wrong here in terms of Biblical usage–Israel is a “goy” too, just a special one chosen by God!

Edwin

 

[Big_Dummy]

Having a Jewish background myself, I seriously doubt this person is Jewish.

He’s never heard of the Jewish Study Bible? or Jewish commentaries translated into English? Even thou you do not read Hebrew, there are fine Jewish scholars who have translated the Jewish Scriptures into English.

1. He claimed that “every Jewish soul was present when God gave the law to Moses.” Like, even his own soul was present, even though he wasn’t conceived until thousands of years later. Is that really a Jewish belief? Found where?

He is apealing to a Christian doctrine known as Traducianism which the catholic church has rejected long ago. The second possibliitiy is a claim that the the souls of the all the righteous has a pre-existence and that common or wicked souls come into being later.

Does he think he is God and therefore knows who is righteous and who is wicked?
jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=985&letter=S&search=soul origin

1. He asserted that Christians worship a “different god.” Not because we worship Jesus – I mean, he thinks we don’t worship the God of Abraham at all, but that instead we worship a pagan deity. Is this a common opinion? I’d never heard that one before. He said that in the First Commandment, when the Lord says, “I am the Lord who brought your ancestors out of Egypt…,” proves that YHWH isn’t my Lord because my ancestors weren’t brought out of Egypt – therefore I must worship some other god. (that’s when my head exploded).

This is nonsense he learned from the internet and has nothing to do with Judaism.
tektonics.org/copycathub.html

1. He thinks the Virgin Birth was stolen from myths about Zeus impregnating human women. Moreover, he argues that this would mean God committed adultery with Mary!!! I explained to him over and over that we don’t think God had sexual relations with Mary, and even explained about the sh’khinah glory cloud. See back to #1 LOL.

This is nonsense he learned from the internet and has nothing to do with Judaism.
google.com/#hl=en&q=copycat+thesis&aq=f&aqi=g1g-m1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=249873c95e696011

1. I easily won on accusations of worshipping statues, etc mostly because I have debated those points with fundamentalists countless times.

Good for you.

1. Every so often, my adversary would say, “I read your posts and realize you just don’t know the God of Abraham at all. Your concept of God is totally foreign to Judaism.” How am I supposed to respond to such vague, conclusory comments?

Laugher is stronger than words to nonsense like this.

In all Jewish sects, the Thirteen Attributes of God are

1.God of mercy (before a man commits a sin);
2.God of mercy (after a man commits a sin);
3.Almighty Lord of the universe, Ruler of Nature, and Mankind;
4.Full of affectionate sympathy for the suffering and miseries of human frailty;
5.Assisting, helping and consoling the afflicted and raising up the oppressed;
6.Long suffering and slow to anger;
7.Abundant in goodness i.e. granting His gifts beyond the deserts of man;
8.True to Himself and speaking the Truth in love;
9.Remembering the good deeds of the ancestors for a thousand generations;
10.Bearing with indulgence the failings of Man; and also
11.Man’s evil deeds springing from malice and rebellion against God; and also
12.Man’s shortcomings due to heedlessness and error;
13.He will not allow the guilty to pass unpunished but visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Him.

reflectingonjudaism.com/Gods_Thirteen_Attributes

Sefirot
According to the kabbalists, the attributes of God relate to each other in a scripted way.
myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/God/The_Middle_Ages/The_Kabbalists_on_God/The_Sefirot.shtml

 

[Contarini]

He is apealing to a Christian doctrine known as Traducianism which the catholic church has rejected long ago.

No, this is a standard rabbinic teaching.

It’s not quite the same as traducianism–it implies something much more like the pre-existence of souls.

Edwin

 

[Bluegoat]

In the Talmud somewhere. It’s a standard belief.

Edwin

Which reminds me, an important point is that it is difficult as a Christian to be familiar with all the pertinent Jewish writings. There are libraries full of stuff beyond the OT writings that have some level of authority.

 

[lax16]

Just straying off the thread to say that Italy may be nice but Sicily is BEEAYYOOOTIFUL!!! ( Take it from a Sicilian ). Viva la Sicilia!

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl -
Oh yes - I will definitely have to visit Sicily. My grandparents are from Castellammare. I bet the food is delicious and the scenery beautiful. Someday…(sigh)

 

[wmscott]

Just straying off the thread to say that Italy may be nice but Sicily is BEEAYYOOOTIFUL!!! ( Take it from a Sicilian ). Viva la Sicilia!

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I will second that, shortly after I was married, I was stationed in Sicily (82-84). We had the opportunity to visit many of the Catholic Churches there. They were very beautiful and ornate. They were full of icons and statues of the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph, and many other Saints. There always seemed to be an old lady or two dressed in black that was praying the Rosary. The Churches were always quite because there was always someone praying. They tolerated visitors but insisted on respect and reverence. At the housing area that we lived in, we would have mass in a grotto during the summers. It was simple, with a stone alter and a few stone benches. It was 20 to 30 degrees cooler than the outside area. A vineyard was a backdrop with the Mediterranean Sea framing it all in. It was in that grotto, much like what the early Christians gathered in, that I decided to convert.

 

[lax16]

I will second that, shortly after I was married, I was stationed in Sicily (82-84). We had the opportunity to visit many of the Catholic Churches there. They were very beautiful and ornate. They were full of icons and statues of the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph, and many other Saints. There always seemed to be an old lady or two dressed in black that was praying the Rosary. The Churches were always quite because there was always someone praying. They tolerated visitors but insisted on respect and reverence. At the housing area that we lived in, we would have mass in a grotto during the summers. It was simple, with a stone alter and a few stone benches. It was 20 to 30 degrees cooler than the outside area. A vineyard was a backdrop with the Mediterranean Sea framing it all in. It was in that grotto, much like what the early Christians gathered in, that I decided to convert.

wmscott - That is a beautiful story! Where were you when you attended mass in the grotto (that eventually led to your conversion)? I really look forward to going someday… (sigh)

 

[Javl]

I will second that, shortly after I was married, I was stationed in Sicily (82-84). We had the opportunity to visit many of the Catholic Churches there. They were very beautiful and ornate. They were full of icons and statues of the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph, and many other Saints. There always seemed to be an old lady or two dressed in black that was praying the Rosary. The Churches were always quite because there was always someone praying. They tolerated visitors but insisted on respect and reverence. At the housing area that we lived in, we would have mass in a grotto during the summers. It was simple, with a stone alter and a few stone benches. It was 20 to 30 degrees cooler than the outside area. A vineyard was a backdrop with the Mediterranean Sea framing it all in. It was in that grotto, much like what the early Christians gathered in, that** I decided to convert.**

To Catholicism or to become a Sicilian? Just kidding…Beautiful story, God Bless you and yours.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Kaninchen]

Do the Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed Jews agree on the role of the Messiah?

Mi dispiace, ma . . . .

Sorry for any delay but, sometimes, “a mum has to do what a mum has to do” and I’ve been a bit diverted.

The answer is that, of course, nobody agrees about anything. Everybody sort of agrees about everything but nobody sort of agrees about anything. In other words, you’re dealing with a Jewish poster who, while being rather observant, never criticises other Jewish posters. I belong to the ‘Yes, but don’t hold your breath,’ tendency.

Going back to what I was saying earlier, about the paradigmatic differences, there’s a difference of focus of the two religions that’s kind of crucial to understand.

The focus of Judaism is about the ‘here’ and ‘now’, how to live ethical monotheism, it isn’t about original sin, salvation, heaven, hell and purgatory and so on.

Why do we have all the rules and regulations? Is it so some angel or whatever can say "Ruth Kaninchen, you get 30 days’ hard labour for saying for the umpteenth time “Shabbat starts when I’m good and ready not when the Jewish Chronicle (UK Jewish paper) says so!”

No, we have all the rules and regulations so that, whenever Ruth Kaninchen says “Shabbat starts when I’m good and ready” she’s thinking, “This is what we do, this is who we are, this is what we should be doing.”

It’s doing stuff because of who we are, our history, our traditions, our Covenant, not because Messiah is going to come along and Save us from Hell.

I think that’s a way of covering Jewish perspectives on Messiah.

 

[Bluegoat]

Mi dispiace, ma . . . .

Sorry for any delay but, sometimes, “a mum has to do what a mum has to do” and I’ve been a bit diverted.

The answer is that, of course, nobody agrees about anything. Everybody sort of agrees about everything but nobody sort of agrees about anything. In other words, you’re dealing with a Jewish poster who, while being rather observant, never criticises other Jewish posters. I belong to the ‘Yes, but don’t hold your breath,’ tendency.

Going back to what I was saying earlier, about the paradigmatic differences, there’s a difference of focus of the two religions that’s kind of crucial to understand.

The focus of Judaism is about the ‘here’ and ‘now’, how to live ethical monotheism, it isn’t about original sin, salvation, heaven, hell and purgatory and so on.

Why do we have all the rules and regulations? Is it so some angel or whatever can say "Ruth Kaninchen, you get 30 days’ hard labour for saying for the umpteenth time “Shabbat starts when I’m good and ready not when the Jewish Chronicle (UK Jewish paper) says so!”

No, we have all the rules and regulations so that, whenever Ruth Kaninchen says “Shabbat starts when I’m good and ready” she’s thinking, “This is what we do, this is who we are, this is what we should be doing.”

It’s doing stuff because of who we are, our history, our traditions, our Covenant, not because Messiah is going to come along and Save us from Hell.

I think that’s a way of covering Jewish perspectives on Messiah.

You know, a few Jews have told me this is how they see it/were taught, and I don’t dispute them. But what seems odd to me is that they then go on to say that Christianity must therefore be wrong, it has misunderstood the message of Judaism.

This doesn’t make sense to me as an argument. Because it means either a) God really surprised them (and this seems to actually have been the reaction of some early Jewish Christians), or it arose somehow from inside the Jewish culture.

Since they obviously don’t believe the first, the second seems to be the only option, which doesn’t really support their argument that Christianity is something that could never have arisen as an interpretation of Judaism.

Is this a common way of thinking? Is there a way to make sense of it?

 

[Kaninchen]

You know, a few Jews have told me this is how they see it/were taught, and I don’t dispute them. But what seems odd to me is that they then go on to say that Christianity must therefore be wrong, it has misunderstood the message of Judaism.

I’m just offering perspective.

This doesn’t make sense to me as an argument. Because it means either a) God really surprised them (and this seems to actually have been the reaction of some early Jewish Christians), or it arose somehow from inside the Jewish culture.

I think you may have left out a sentence somewhere because it ‘doesn’t make sense to me as an argument’ - how was it that God really surprised us? By sending the Romans or something? If you mean ‘sending Jesus’, then you’re implying that, somehow, we’re supposed to take the New Testament seriously as a book and a ‘history’ that involved considerable numbers of people. Something we, rather obviously, don’t do.

Since they obviously don’t believe the first, the second seems to be the only option, which doesn’t really support their argument that Christianity is something that could never have arisen as an interpretation of Judaism.

Oh, does Christianity have aspects of Judaism in it? Well, yes, as do Islam and Mormonism but things don’t justifiy themselves just because they’re subsequent to something else and have borrowed bits from it.

 

[Bluegoat]

I’m just offering perspective.

I think you may have left out a sentence somewhere because it ‘doesn’t make sense to me as an argument’ - how was it that God really surprised us? By sending the Romans or something? If you mean ‘sending Jesus’, then you’re implying that, somehow, we’re supposed to take the New Testament seriously as a book and a ‘history’ that involved considerable numbers of people. Something we, rather obviously, don’t do.

Oh, does Christianity have aspects of Judaism in it? Well, yes, as do Islam and Mormonism but things don’t justifiy themselves just because they’re subsequent to something else and have borrowed bits from it.

No, that’s not what I am suggesting, I’m afraid I wasn’t clear. There are arguing that the early Christian understanding of the role of the Messiah is profoundly non-Jewish. But they obviously don’t believe that Jesus was really the Messiah. Which means that the first Christians were really a kind of outgrowth of Jewish thought - that Christianity isn’t profoundly non-Jewish, there must have been elements within Judaism at that time that gave rise to Christianity.

 

[Publisher]

No, that’s not what I am suggesting, I’m afraid I wasn’t clear. There are arguing that the early Christian understanding of the role of the Messiah is profoundly non-Jewish. But they obviously don’t believe that Jesus was really the Messiah. ** Which means that the first Christians were really a kind of outgrowth of Jewish thought -** that Christianity isn’t profoundly non-Jewish, there must have been elements within Judaism at that time that gave rise to Christianity.

Exactly…after the destruction of the Temple, there was a tension between those Jews who accepted certain “Christian” claims about Jesus of Nazareth and the emerging rabbinical movement as to whom was the “authentic” version of Judaism. By the end of the 1st century, Christianity had established itself as a separate religious tradition as most of it’s adherants were Gentile…not Jewish…and they began to define their beliefs in more Hellenist language than Jewish.

The Gospels came out of these Jewish/Gentile communities influenced by Greek/Hellenistic thought and philosophy…the sects of Christianity moved away from it’s Jewish roots.

One of my favorite books on the subject is titled “The Reluctant Parting” by Julie Galumbush. The book has it’s genesis in a synagouge where Ms Galumbush taught a class on the Jewish origins of the NT.

 

[Kaninchen]

No, that’s not what I am suggesting, I’m afraid I wasn’t clear. There are arguing that the early Christian understanding of the role of the Messiah is profoundly non-Jewish. But they obviously don’t believe that Jesus was really the Messiah. Which means that the first Christians were really a kind of outgrowth of Jewish thought - that Christianity isn’t profoundly non-Jewish, there must have been elements within Judaism at that time that gave rise to Christianity.

It was Jewish society ‘in extremis’ under Roman occupation and on its way to catastrophe - were there groups with all sorts of odd ideas? Yes, I’m sure there were. Did Christianity take some of those themes in its foundation? Certainly.

Does that mean that there’s a paradigmatic link between the two religions? Oh, that’s an entirely different question to which my answer is ‘not really’ and your answer would be ‘yes there is’.

From experience, I tend to think that Christians tend to be over-impressed by various echoes of Judaism in Christianity while missing the point that the two religions ‘work’ differently - that Judaism isn’t ‘Christianity minus Jesus’ - and that’s one of the reasons (together with things like the desire to convert - which leads to the cul-de-sac ‘Jesus is God/Oh no he isn’t’ conversational spiral) why we talk at one another rather than to one another.

 

[Bluegoat]

It was Jewish society ‘in extremis’ under Roman occupation and on its way to catastrophe - were there groups with all sorts of odd ideas? Yes, I’m sure there were. Did Christianity take some of those themes in its foundation? Certainly.

Does that mean that there’s a paradigmatic link between the two religions? Oh, that’s an entirely different question to which my answer is ‘not really’ and your answer would be ‘yes there is’.

From experience, I tend to think that Christians tend to be over-impressed by various echoes of Judaism in Christianity while missing the point that the two religions ‘work’ differently - that Judaism isn’t ‘Christianity minus Jesus’ - and that’s one of the reasons (together with things like the desire to convert - which leads to the cul-de-sac ‘Jesus is God/Oh no he isn’t’ conversational spiral) why we talk at one another rather than to one another.

Well, personally I would not argue that they work differently, that seems quite clear to me. However, I find that many Jews I have spoken to tend to forget that while Christianity has had 2000 years to develop away from Judaism, so has modern Judaism had 2000 years to change. And the two met over the centuries and so influenced each other, and also defined themselves in opposition to each other.

But both of these phenomena are probably a result of poor historical sense.

 

[Heliotropium]

I have to tell you that this particular argument would be even less useful than your one before and would more than likely make whoever you were talking to think much less of you.

You’re supposed to be trying to impress and convince people for heaven’s sake!

I always wanted to know why the Old Testament laws for purification and sacrificial offerings are not being practiced by Jews today. If you do not practice them because the temple was destroyed then why hasn’t God given you another place to make such sacrifices?

 

[Kaninchen]

I always wanted to know why the Old Testament laws for purification and sacrificial offerings are not being practiced by Jews today. If you do not practice them because the temple was destroyed then why hasn’t God given you another place to make such sacrifices?

This might help.

 

[Church_Militant]

I never debate with Jews. I make them my friends and we dialog, and I have to say they have been BRILLIANT in encouraging my faith. Two, one a close personal friend, and another an Israeli Jew from here on the forum, were greatly helpful in putting together the following article on Purgatory on my blog.
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

We are very closely tied to Judaism and can learn much from them.

One of my personal heroes in Judaism is Eleazar in 2nd Maccabees 6:18-31. I’ve been reading the books of Maccabees lately.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I never debate with Jews. I make them my friends and we dialog, and I have to say they have been BRILLIANT in encouraging my faith. Two, one a close personal friend, and another an Israeli Jew from here on the forum, were greatly helpful in putting together the following article on Purgatory on my blog.
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

We are very closely tied to Judaism and can learn much from them.

One of my personal heroes in Judaism is Eleazar in 2nd Maccabees 6:18-31. I’ve been reading the books of Maccabees lately.

Very insightful post.

Anna

. . . . .My Jewish friends are a retired couple who live next door. They treat my son and me like family and it is a joy to have them in our lives. We have had many long discussions about religion; though neither of us attempt to convert the other. I have learned a great deal about Judaism from them; and I pray, through God’s help, they have learned some good things about Christianity from me. We do all share a deep love and respect for one another.

They’ve told me some horror stories about Christians, who have tried to convert them. Basically they all ended the same. When the Christians found they would not convert, they dropped them; and that was the end of the relationship.

A number of times on the forums; I’ve seen a quote by St. Francis of Assisi: “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” I think when we are able to love others through Christ, we become the most authentic witness to the Gospel. I cringe when I think of how often I fail in this respect.

When I was in my early 20’s (about a century ago ); I spent time as a volunteer in an Indian ghetto in Arizona. A Christian man and his family ran a mission there. When the family first arrived; the Native American leader told the missionary that he must work to help the people, for one full year, before he was allowed to speak one word about his God. The missionary agreed and honored the request. This turned into a lifelong Christian ministry. I’d say the Native American leader was a very wise man.

 

[lax16]

Mi dispiace, ma . . . .

Sorry for any delay but, sometimes, “a mum has to do what a mum has to do” and I’ve been a bit diverted.

The answer is that, of course, nobody agrees about anything. Everybody sort of agrees about everything but nobody sort of agrees about anything. In other words, you’re dealing with a Jewish poster who, while being rather observant, never criticises other Jewish posters. I belong to the ‘Yes, but don’t hold your breath,’ tendency.

Going back to what I was saying earlier, about the paradigmatic differences, there’s a difference of focus of the two religions that’s kind of crucial to understand.

The focus of Judaism is about the ‘here’ and ‘now’, how to live ethical monotheism, it isn’t about original sin, salvation, heaven, hell and purgatory and so on.

Why do we have all the rules and regulations? Is it so some angel or whatever can say "Ruth Kaninchen, you get 30 days’ hard labour for saying for the umpteenth time “Shabbat starts when I’m good and ready not when the Jewish Chronicle (UK Jewish paper) says so!”

No, we have all the rules and regulations so that, whenever Ruth Kaninchen says “Shabbat starts when I’m good and ready” she’s thinking, “This is what we do, this is who we are, this is what we should be doing.”

It’s doing stuff because of who we are, our history, our traditions, our Covenant, not because Messiah is going to come along and Save us from Hell.

I think that’s a way of covering Jewish perspectives on Messiah.

Hi Kaninchen - I understand what you have said and find it very humerous and interesting!
So much of what we do is important to us and our children and yet so few pass it on because we have become too busy. I have a few more questions.

As you know, the Thirteen Principles of the Jewish Faith state (these are but a few)

• The Mashiach will come - Is that for the purpose of reuniting all Jews to Israel?
• God Rewards the Righteous - How? When?
  -The Dead will be Resurrected - To where? All or some?

thanks!