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Mickey
Guest
You have found?
This kind of generalization reeks of polemics.
Sadly, many people (Catholic and Orthodox) do not have the deepest understanding of the Holy Eucharist. But God will help them.
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ThereseMarie
Guest
Mickey! My friend! I hope you are well.
I agree with you that many do not have an understanding of what Holy Eucharist is. I am saddened at times during Mass when I happen to look up during Communion. Sometimes I feel as though I am in a church with a lot of unbelievers.
I agree with you that many do not have an understanding of what Holy Eucharist is. I am saddened at times during Mass when I happen to look up during Communion. Sometimes I feel as though I am in a church with a lot of unbelievers.
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Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Thus we must pray for them.
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Mickey,
What’s bothering you, brother?
Blessings,
Marduk
That is my personal experience. How is that a generalization? I have met some who talk about the Eucharist, but most I’ve met (online or in person) talk about the icons or the gold or the incense, or the vestments.
What’s bothering you, brother?
Blessings,
Marduk
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Mickey
Guest
Fair enough. Opinions are a dime a dozen.
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mgy100
Guest
The Eucharist is paramount. Smells, bells, etc… they’re there to aid us and show respect for God during the Divine Liturgy. Before I was Orthodox I had bells, smells, pretty vestments and icons… So, here is one Orthodox you are talking to online that you can’t pigeonhole into your statements in this thread. The Church is one with Christ. Faith isn’t to be measured by the quantity of icons, the cost of the vestment nor the thick sweet smell of a quality incense. When we are at Liturgy we are there to worship God. The smells, bells, icons, vestments, candles, bowing, etc… all are part of our prayer and worship of Christ when were are the communal service at Liturgy. We are there to receive the Eucharist and be united with the brethren present, throughout the world and in the Heavens.Dear brother Mickey,
That is my personal experience. How is that a generalization? I have met some who talk about the Eucharist, but most I’ve met (online or in person) talk about the icons or the gold or the incense, or the vestments.
What’s bothering you, brother?
Blessings,
Marduk
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mardukm
Guest
That’s a given brother. I know the Eucharist is important in Eastern Othodoxy. I am just giving my experience with prospective CONVERTS to Eastern Orthodoxy. D’accord?
Blessings,
Marduk
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Mickey
Guest
Make that two.
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mgy100
Guest
I appreciate the clarification. If someone is merely wanting to join the Orthodox, Roman Catholics, or Eastern Catholic Churches simply because of externals then I think the the priest they are speaking with would have a serious conversation with them and have them look deep inside themselves and pray pray pray before any further steps were taken. I have, had, will have and will have been having smells and bells since I was a wee kid.
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mardukm
Guest
Amen to that, brother. A friend of mind told me a story about his parish priest who hosted the youth group (high school age) for his church and the local Lutheran community. After several months, many of the Lutheran kids wanted to join the Catholic Church. The priest spoke with the Lutheran pastor, the kids were counseled, and it was discovered that they wanted to join because the Catholic Church was “fun.” It was easily agreed that the teen-agers should not become Catholic, especially for the wrong reasons…
Blessings,
Marduk
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Aramis
Guest
For me, the smells and bells got me back in the door, and the preaching style coupled to the liturgical calendar differences kept me.
The nature of the DL of St. John, and the liturgical calendar built up with it, is a powerful process. And the “smells and bells” and bright icons are a major part of how the Eastern Churches get people to pay attention. Every Icon has a teaching value… and a good pastor uses them to teach on the appropriate feasts. Perhaps only as an addendum to the homily for the readings.
Due to the readings selected, the correspondence between them is a powerful tool for shaping the homily. The relevant festal Icon, Tropar, kontak, prokimenon, magnification and irmos also provide material which helps shape the preaching.
The smells and bells also create a conditioned response, as well. A sense of the Holy.
Which is why participation in the DL, Vespers, and Matins is a significant part of the initiation process for adults in the Eastern Churches: they are intended to teach the young and the new, and reinforce the training of the old hands…
So the “smells and bells” ARE important as a tool for opening people to the chatechesis of the DL.
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Alexios
Guest
Try a Traditional Solemn High Mass! Everything is chanted, like the Byzantine Rite, lots of incense, lots of beautiful vestments and centuries upon centuries of tradition…and it’s still Roman! Just authentic!
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mgy100
Guest
How is this relevant?
The 1962 Roman Missal is NOT the same as the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom/St. Basil. There are vast differences. I take offense to this post. I don’t understand the “just authentic” comment either.
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother mgy100,
Blessings,
Marduk
I believe brother Alexios is referring to the feeling of reverence that might inspire one at an Eastern or Oriental DL is the same as what one would get at a Traditional Latin Mass. May I ask what is offensive about the post?
Blessings,
Marduk
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mardukm
Guest
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Mickey
Guest
Do you mean–in comparison to the Novus Ordo?
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Alexios
Guest
Yes, in comparison to the Novus Ordo.
How is my post offensive? My point was that Antonius could find the more sober Roman liturgical expression, but still with traditional things like lots of incense, beautiful vestments, chant, crossing, and ancient rituals.
How is my post offensive? My point was that Antonius could find the more sober Roman liturgical expression, but still with traditional things like lots of incense, beautiful vestments, chant, crossing, and ancient rituals.
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Mickey
Guest
I understood what you meant.
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mgy100
Guest
The Byzantine Rite is more than just something that kind of sort of looks like the 1962 missal. It isn’t something to merely be used as a substitution. The Divine Liturgy is the pinnacle of prayer for Byzantine Rite Christians. The Vespers and Matins (which in fact be done so the end of Matins blends into the Divine Liturgy) all teach and have the same theme; the fest day, the saint of the day, the teachings of the readings for that day.
It is so more encompassing than just the external factors of vestments, bells, smells and the priest facing East.
It is not an escape for those that reject that official normative missal of the Latin Catholic Church.
Most Eastern Catholic parishes exist because of specific events in history. The parishoners are usually the descendents of these events. While all are welcome, it is also important to understand that it is distincitvely different than the Latin Rite. They operate their Liturgical practices in much different fashion than the Latin rite. It is important to note that long term attendance at an Eastern Catholic parish by someone who is say, German Latin Catholic stock, requires one to immerse themselves in the study of their liturgical life, prayer life etc… This not only benefits the the newcomer but it also shows tremendous respect for those who have built the holy and sacred temple you are worshipping in.
In other words again, these aren’t places to hide or escape, they are fully functioning communities of dedicated people who centre their lives around the praxis of their sui juris church.
But one thing is they love their parish and their way of expressing Christianity. It isn’t appropriate to condone using someone else’s church, their heart and soul, as a subsitution for the 1962 Roman Missal or as an escape from their rejection of the current Missal.
That is why I felt offended. If you didn’t mean this, I apologize. But at least you see what many people face in Eastern parishes.
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