My first liturgical Dance Experience

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The big problem with liturgical dance is that in our culture, dance has not been an art that has been used as an expression of the Sacred. Dance has been used to express the Sacred in some American Indian cultures though, and in that context dance doesn’t look out of place.

If I remember correctly, in the Ethiopian Orthodox church, there are some dances in the liturgy that are only performed by priests.

However, I find liturgical dance in Our Lady of the SUV parishes (excuse me, Catholic Community) jarring, if not downright silly.
 
Greg27 said:
I think dancing might be a good way to attract the young, especially those below the age of 25,t.
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I think attempting to adapt “church” to the culture has already been proven a dismal failure. I have talked to countless boomers who nearly laughed their way out of the church when simon and Garfunkel songs showed up. The young are drawn to tradition.and vertical reverence…which is sadly somthing they are very very unfamiliar with at least in Church…
 
I have heard the argument that “liturgical dance is a form of self-expression.” So are swearing, making obscene gestures, etc. forms of “self-expression,” but hopefully we do not engage on doing those things, either.:eek:
 
LouisH said:
In the European Catholic tradition there is one officially permited liturgical dance. It takes place once a year in the Mozarabic Rite in Spain. In one of the churches the dace takes place; I am not sure if is duribg Mass though. I only saw a few seconds of it on TV, but it was done by altar boys in a very dignified fashion.

By the way, I have seen women dancers duribg Mass. When I havw spoken with them they said that they did it to express themselves. I did not say it to them but I think that is a poor reason to have! :mad:
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The Mass is NOT about self-expression. It is the unbloody sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and gives us His Flesh to eat so that we would have eternal life.

A dance draws away from this focus. The Mass is solemn.
 
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Biblioassistant:
I’ve bolted once. I was at a parish for Good Friday services and I began to feel uneasy when the priest came down the aisle and sat in the front pew. He never went into the sanctuary during the time I was there. When the Passion was read, it was by a group of about 10 readers accompanied by mood lighting and chimes. When they began to read the prayers following the Passion (accompanied by mimes) I bolted. I was terrified to think what the veneration of the Cross might entail.
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I have walked out of several Masses myself; not out of distress, but out of either disgust or a refusal to be part of what was going on. One was a “rock” Mass, with a heavy-metal wannabe group up on the altar crashing away. Couldn’t hear myself think, let alone pray. Another one was a “polka” Mass. In another one, the priest sat down after the Gospel reading and a woman (the parish secretary!) got up tp give the “homily”.
Rebecca New:
When I saw this thread, I went and got a cup of java. I knew it was going to be rather heated. If I can hold hands during the Our Father, you can sit through a dance. Remember, it is the Eucharist that binds us, not the hand holding or the wave.
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Some years ago, we were having terrible difficulties finding a parish that wasn’t flooded with liturgical abuses; my wife was on the verge of leaving the Church over it. We had no bishop at the time, and the local deanery had instituted one of those “cluster” arrangements where one priest serviced three parishes and you could arrange to talk to one of the pastors five months in advance, when they might possibly become available. We went to see the dean, and explained our distress, and he said basically the same thing: “You come to church for the Eucharist, and the rest, you’re just going to have to put up with. Too bad, so sad.”

My question then, which remains, is: if the entire Mass is just window dressing, then why do we bother? Let’s all go to church, line up at the door, walk up, receive Holy Communion, and walk straight back out—twenty minutes, tops. Dispense with the rest, since it doesn’t matter anyway.

Right?

No, not right, because the Holy See recognizes that all of the Mass is important, not just Holy Eucharist. If it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be doing it, now would we?

Or, as I told Father on that occasion, “This woman” (pointing to my wife) “is about ready to walk. The abuses in these parishes are so horrible that they are literally driving people out of the Church, and the attitude we get is a shrug and a ‘Tough. You’re just gonna have to deal with it’ comment. Wouldn’t it be better to address the problems and dispose of them, rather than this flippiant attitude that ‘we don’t care one way or the other what you do’?”

All I got was another shrug. Fortunately, after five or six months, I found a parish that was reasonably orthodox, that looked like a Catholic church instead of a TV set for the PTL Club, and which handled the Mass fairly close to the rubrics. It took me another four months to get my wife to come back to church.
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deluca1976:
First, let me say that it is sad that many Catholics do not sing at Mass. Sometimes I just want to gently poke them in the stomach like the Pillsbury doughboy to see if they’re still alive.

Perhaps some fear that their voices do not sound good, but most probably don’t even fully realize what they are a part of.
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Some of us don’t sing because some of the music is so godawful, some of it is literally unsingable by a large congrgation, and some of it is mildly paganistic or is written by former priests who are openly living in a state of mortal sin, such as Daniel Schutte, who lives in San Francisco with his male lover. (Why we are continuing to support his deviant lifestyle by continuing to purchase and publish his music for the faithful to sing is beyond me, but I don’t run OCP.)
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Brendan:
The correct response to Liturgical Dance is to get up and join them, doing all your best ‘boogie’ moves.

After all, this is all about “Full and Active Participation”. The ‘just sit back at watch a performace’ stuff went out with Vatican II.

They can’t disagree with that, can they
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ROFL!!! 😛 That’d certainly put a kink in the proceedings, wouldn’t it?

(Wols has a quick mental picture of the whole congregation standing up, clapping their hands and singing, “Can’t sleep at night; and you wonder why; maybe God is tryin’ to tell you something”, a la “The Color Purple”.)

:LOL:
 
Wolseley said:
… or is written by former priests who are openly living in a state of mortal sin, such as Daniel Schutte, who lives in San Francisco with his male lover. (Why we are continuing to support his deviant lifestyle by continuing to purchase and publish his music for the faithful to sing is beyond me, but I don’t run OCP.)
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WOW!!! I didn’t know about that regarding Schutte. Is that really true and is he really open about it? How did you find out about that?
 
The big problem with liturgical dance is that in our culture, dance has not been an art that has been used as an expression of the Sacred.
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there were the shakers, but that’s neither here nor there. 😉
 
Wolseley said:
:eek: I think the young lady in the white top is a little…uh…unrestrained, so to speak.

Kind of a wonder she didn’t end up with a black eye…
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:tsktsk: for shame, sir!

Reminds me of a quote from one of our most famous Australian dancers, Sir Robert Helpmann, who said ‘the main problem with nude ballet is that there are certain parts of the dancers that don’t stop when the music does’ 😉

OK, now see you in line for Confession :crossrc:
 
LilyM said:
:tsktsk: for shame, sir!

Reminds me of a quote from one of our most famous Australian dancers, Sir Robert Helpmann, who said ‘the main problem with nude ballet is that there are certain parts of the dancers that don’t stop when the music does’ 😉

OK, now see you in line for Confession :crossrc:
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Yes, but you see, this ties right in with one of the main objections I have with liturgical dancing.

Most liturgical dancers are young women, like these, who usually wear dance costumes, like these:

dioceseofknoxville.org/etc/jan22/a-KCHS-dance%202005.jpg

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seattlearch.org/NR/rdonlyres/B69BC731-C04B-402F-87B2-0DCD35E5EA88/4385/eshs2.jpg

Now, we should be going to Mass to have our hearts and minds lifted to Christ. However, when you have a twenty-year old pixie in a skin-tight leotard prancing down the main aisle with (to quote Sir Robert Herrick) “that brave vibration, each way free”, I can guarantee you that every sixteen-year old boy in the church is going to have his eyes riveted on her, and not for reasons of holiness. He’s going to have his thoughts directed, all right, but it isn’t going to be towards Christ or towards holiness. I was a sixteen-year old boy once—I know this.

We can’t deny that there are hormones working at that age, naturally; but should we be encouraging such thoughts, and especially in church??? The plain and simple fact is, for the vast majority of adolescent males (and probably a goodly share of the post-adolescent ones) liturgical dancers constitute a near occasion of sin. I’m sorry, but there it is.
 
This may or may not be relevant, but…

I have yet to see Liturgical Dance yet here in the States, but I went to Ecuador, South America with our Parish youth ministry in 2003. In Esmeraldas, we went to one of Fr. Silvino’s masses. He is originally from Africa, I believe. Ecuador is full of African-descent communities, and his parish was one of them. (They are descendants of escaped slaves) While fighting a bout of intestinal distress, among other things, there we sat, most of us having no cluewhat was being said, and out came a group of Marimba dancers during the entrance hymn. The one in front carried a beautiful painting of Mary, and she was the oldest out of the group. Behind her were two rows of younger girls (I would say ages 15-25), and then the altar boys, the lector, adn then the Priest, as per usual. I know very little Spanish, but when they came back after Communion, the song they sang was definitely one of the Marian type, and they did it again to show the painting of Mary to the entire congregation, and then they carried it out after the final blessing in the same manner. (Marimba dance consists mostly of simply stepping back and forth to the beat. No leg raising, back bending, etc We learned some- great aerobics, by the way 😉 )

As far as dance costumes… ha… I know what you mean as far as modesty and decency goes. I was a Scottish dancer for 4 years. That’s the only dance I have taken for competition, and it’s hard to be immodest in 8 yards of heavy wool, thick wool knee socks, and a heavy velvet vest or jacket and blouse. The Marimba costume most commonly is simply a floor length, very full skirt (full enough that it can be pulled up to the sides and still nothing shows- I would guess about 7 yards or so) and a full, gathered peasant style blouse that tucks into the skirt.

I’m by no means saying that we should all jump in and do it, don’t take me wrong.

Just, that’s my own personal experience with liturgical dance (I remember being in a dance supply shop for Scottish shoes, and spotting the sign for ‘lit. dance costumes’ and wondering ‘what the heck?’) Down in South America, it is common-practice. Those of African and Native indian descent have more embraced the Catholic faith and Mass as their own, than conforming to ‘the norm’ that we know. And, might I mention- everyone sings! It’s incredible. (Well, everyone but us, but not knowing a word of Spanish gets us a get out of jail free card, doesn’t it??) But, as stated before, that’s a matter of cultural adaptation. As far as the US, yeah, I think it would be rediculous to try and introduce a ‘new’ cultural idea into our conventional mass- there’s no reason for it, and that’s what makes it so uncomfortable to deal with.

If we want to add an ‘American’ cultural tradition, get rid of the Rock’n’Roll and bring more guitars, mandolins, fiddles, and, oh, how about some Shape Note singers??? I agree with keeping the dancing out- the Shakers died out a long while ago, and it’s a huge distraction in a culture where it is not commonplace.
 
several people here have said liturgical dance is not allowed.
Can someone tell me where is is specifically forbidden in church documents?
 
irishtiger63 said:
This may or may not be relevant, but… I have yet to see Liturgical Dance yet here in the States,
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Count yourself lucky. Unfortunately, I’ve had to endure liturgical dance on several ocassions. First time I saw it, I was singing in the choir for our diocese’s 25th anniversary. Out came the dancers in tights, ballet shoes, and gauzy, flowing skirts and “wraps” around their shoulders. They were holding bowls of incense and danced as if they had just stepped out of a Cecil B. DeMille biblical epic. There were audible intakes of breath from throughout the congregation.

Then came the 50th anniversary celebration of a local nun. Sang at that too. The dancers did the bowls of incense again and then they added these 18 ft tall standards from which were draped with ribbons in all the colors of the rainbow and these were being waved from side to side, and front to back. The imagery which stuck in my head was - maypoles.

The point about ethnic considerations is spot on. There is ethnic liturgical dance of sorts here in south Louisiana and in particular New Orleans but not in the context of the liturgy. At jazz funerals, when the remains are taken from the funeral parlor to church, there is a jazz band and mourners. The band plays a dirge and the people or “second liners” dance somberly behind the band and the casket. It stops at the door of the church. Likewise, when the body is brought out after Mass, the procession proceeds dancing somberly to the cemetary. After the deceased has been buried, the procession breaks into joyous music and the band leads the second liners off to the reception.

African customs with roots in antiquity. Ballet, however, is European and its roots are in theatre. Not the same thing.
 
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