My First Traditional (Dialogue!) Mass

[Alex_Luciano]

Hi everyone! Just wanted to share my first experience at a traditional mass. First of all let me give you all a background. Last week I went to confession and prayed in front of Our Lord and asked him to provide me with the grace to avoid sin. I have always felt that praying for God’s grace is the most efficacious way to ward off sin. I can’t remember exactly what brought about the idea but I felt an urge to learn about the traditional mass and, if possible, attend one.

During the last week I watched a few solemn high masses on EWTN’s website and followed them through and through. They seemed beautiful and when I compared the text of the OF with the EF, I felt that we lost a lot in the liturgical reforms of Vatican II. Now about the mass I went to. It was in Sanford, Fl’s All Souls Church, about a 35 minute drive from Orlando, where I live. It was a low mass in the dialogue form. I didn’t know such a type of traditional mass existed, it was quite interesting. I felt very at peace. Everyone was reverent and not a noise was heard apart from the responses. It definitely beat out my parish’s OF but was not the traditional mass I expected or was looking for. Maybe the dialogue mass can help a lot of people who feel that the traditional mass did not have enough lay participation. It almost felt like a hybrid of the EO and EF (of course it is still considered EF). Also, I was surprised to see that everyone was relatively young, even a few entire families. Overall it was a very enriching experience, if it wasn’t so far I’d go every Sunday. I only wish Orlando had more EF masses, we are seriously lacking.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\It was a low mass in the dialogue form. I didn’t know such a type of traditional mass existed,\

**Actually the Dialogue Mass–Missa Recitata–is what is truly traditional. St. Pius X and beloved Pius XII recommended this practice. Actually, the Missa Solemnis, or at least Missa Cantata, is supposed to be the norm. Low Mass (Missa Privata) is a concession to human weakness and simply not having enough singers or other ministers.

Using Low Mass as an opportunity to say one’s private prayers, while way too wide spread, is NOT traditional.**

 

[jonpd]

Alex did you know there is a traditional parish in Orlando? (Sacred Heart)

sacredheartorlando.com/

 

[Chatter163]

Please know that the so-called parish mentioned above is NOT part of the Diocese of Orlando and has no official standing within the Church.

There is a Sacred Heart parish in New Smyrna Beach in the Orlando diocese, but this is not the separatist group mentioned above.

 

[Alex_Luciano]

Please know that the so-called parish mentioned above is NOT part of the Diocese of Orlando and has no official standing within the Church.

There is a Sacred Heart parish in New Smyrna Beach in the Orlando diocese, but this is not the separatist group mentioned above.

Thank you! I was wondering about that. I even called, but just got a voicemail. I don’t think they are even SSPX. They seem to be pretty active though. They have like four masses on Sundays and do Holy Days and daily masses. I wish Orlando had more traditional masses but truth is that our Catholic Community here is not traditional at all. Finding where to celebrate certain feast days important to me like Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, is a very tedious task.

bpbasilphx

Actually the Dialogue Mass–Missa Recitata–is what is truly traditional. St. Pius X and beloved Pius XII recommended this practice. Actually, the Missa Solemnis, or at least Missa Cantata, is supposed to be the norm. Low Mass (Missa Privata) is a concession to human weakness and simply not having enough singers or other ministers.

By the scarce information I found about the dialogue mass, it seems that traditionalists don’t like it very much (actually not one bit) and that it was an innovation from the 40’s and 50’s that didn’t catch on too much. In fact I used to think that the mass my grandparents grew up with was like the dialogue mass, it was later that I learned that the faithful didn’t respond to anything, only the servers. I’m not sure I was too enchanted by it. I do think it was better to most OF masses I’ve been to. And the priest talked about the parousia which is something I hardly hear a priest talk about in mass.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\By the scarce information I found about the dialogue mass, it seems that traditionalists don’t like it very much (actually not one bit) and that it was an innovation from the 40’s and 50’s that didn’t catch on too much.\

**The Dialogue Mass is a restoration.

Not making audible responses during Mass is the innovation.**

 

[malphono]

By the scarce information I found about the dialogue mass, it seems that traditionalists don’t like it very much (actually not one bit) and that it was an innovation from the 40’s and 50’s that didn’t catch on too much. In fact I used to think that the mass my grandparents grew up with was like the dialogue mass, it was later that I learned that the faithful didn’t respond to anything, only the servers. I’m not sure I was too enchanted by it. I do think it was better to most OF masses I’ve been to. And the priest talked about the parousia which is something I hardly hear a priest talk about in mass.

That does seem to be the case, at least in the US. Most “traditionalists” run screaming at the thought of it, and I can’t for the life of me understand why it was (and is) so strongly resisted in the US.

From the information I’ve come by over the years, the missa recitata seems to have been much more accepted (even relatively popular) in France and Germany, and at least in parts of Italy, (and perhaps elsewhere as well).

As an aside, the equivalent of the Roman missa recitata appears to survive in the traditional (pre post-conciliar modifications) use of the Ambrosian Rite in Milan. From the way I’ve experienced it, (much gusto on the part of the congregation), it seems to have been more the rule than the exception in that Rite. Unfortunately I don’t have a copy of the missale ambrosianum so I really can’t say for sure.

 

[Chatter163]

The Dialogue Mass movement started in Europe in the 1910’s with Vatican approval in 1922 and spread to this country in the thirties and forties. To what extent that this was followed at either High or Low Mass depeded greatly on the bishop and diocese. Some actively encouraged it while others did not. Fr. Gerard Eller, S.J. wrote a book on the Dialogue Mass movement in the Midwest during this period.

The movement received official encouragement by the Holy See in 1958 with the publication of Piux XII’s Instruction on Sacred Music.

 

[malphono]

The Dialogue Mass movement started in Europe in the 1910’s with Vatican approval in 1922 and spread to this country in the thirties and forties. To what extent that this was followed at either High or Low Mass depeded greatly on the bishop and diocese.

The “dialogue Mass” (missa recitata) has aboslutely nothing to do with a missa cantata. It was meant as an enhancement to “Low Mass” (missa lecta). Shame that it was not well received in the US.

OTOH, de musica sacra from 1958, deals mainly with missa cantata.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

We were getting the dialogue mass started in Massachusetts in the early 60’s. It was catching on fairly well. [We had even made a start getting the people to chant the parts.] But then the revisions came in and all that was left behind.

 

[CradleCath]

\It was a low mass in the dialogue form. I didn’t know such a type of traditional mass existed,\

**Actually the Dialogue Mass–Missa Recitata–is what is truly traditional. St. Pius X and beloved Pius XII recommended this practice. Actually, the Missa Solemnis, or at least Missa Cantata, is supposed to be the norm. Low Mass (Missa Privata) is a concession to human weakness and simply not having enough singers or other ministers.

Using Low Mass as an opportunity to say one’s private prayers, while way too wide spread, is NOT traditional.**

Nor was it “wide spread”. We learned that before we made our First Communion. We were taught emphatically that the Mass was a prayer unto itself & that was in the 1940’s.
There were a couple of old women, (everyone called them the “Church Mice Sisters”,???) who said their rosaries during Mass…but that just wasn’t common.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Nor was it “wide spread”. We learned that before we made our First Communion. We were taught emphatically that the Mass was a prayer unto itself & that was in the 1940’s.
There were a couple of old women, (everyone called them the “Church Mice Sisters”,???) who said their rosaries during Mass…but that just wasn’t common.

That’s good, although it’s NOT what I’ve observed in the local EF mission, in various comments here by those newly attracted to it, or in various vintage prayer books. They are full of prayers to say DURING mass, with some devotions keyed to the various acts and moments, howsoever tenuously.

This even influcenced Byzantine Catholic practice. One I recall had a prayer for the Little Entrance: “O Lord my God who hast permitted me to view this solemn entrance…”

My associate, Fr. Brendan, was raised in Catholic schools before Vatican 2. All students had to attend the 9 am Sunday mass AND sing it all, including the propers!

 

[CradleCath]

That’s good, although it’s NOT what I’ve observed in the local EF mission, in various comments here by those newly attracted to it, or in various vintage prayer books. They are full of prayers to say DURING mass, with some devotions keyed to the various acts and moments, howsoever tenuously.

This even influcenced Byzantine Catholic practice. One I recall had a prayer for the Little Entrance: “O Lord my God who hast permitted me to view this solemn entrance…”

My associate, Fr. Brendan, was raised in Catholic schools before Vatican 2. All students had to attend the 9 am Sunday mass AND sing it all, including the propers!

You may believe what you want to believe. I was there & am NOT relying on second hand observations. The two old excuses for not liking the EF., “people said their rosaries during Mass” & “the priest faced the wall” are the favorites for those who feel threatened by the TLM.

 

[giuseppeTO]

You may believe what you want to believe. I was there & am NOT relying on second hand observations. The two old excuses for not liking the EF., “people said their rosaries during Mass” & “the priest faced the wall” are the favorites for those who feel threatened by the TLM.

I don’t understand the hangup with saying one’s rosary or performing any other devotional during the Mass. As the priest offers the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary, one may certainly follow a missal and pray (in Latin or English) the identical prayers the priest says. But there is no “rule” that I know of that says one must follow and respond, or follow and not respond. As long as one is spiritually involved in the Sacred Mystery, praying a rosary or praying any other meditative prayer should not be either forbidden or discouraged, IMHO.

This concept that you must follow the book, you must sing the songs, you must make the appropriate response is ludicrous and, in my experience, appeared to come about more when the New Mass was introduced and never harped on before that. In grammar school, before the New Mass, our daily 8:30 Mass was a Missa Cantata and we did sing. But it was not because we were forced to sing in any way, but because part of our instruction in school was how to sing the parts of the Mass and Benediction and we naturally did it.

I remember when the New “Community Mass” was instituted, it was a serious requirement that everyone sing and our priests would be VERY annoyed if there was not significant participation during the sung hymns or in the responses. If he said “The Lord be With You” and he didn’t like the enthusiasm of the response. He said it again, until he was happy with the forced participation.

Even now at our local Novus Ordo, on the unfortunate times I was required to attend for this or that affair, it is typical for the priest when he gets to the altar after the opening processional, to tell the band to repeat the song because folks were not singing loud enough or clapping loud enough or stomping their feet loud enough or whatever.

This whole mindset of forced participation is outrageous and not sacred, in my opinion.

 

[Alex_Luciano]

So in definitive, what can the faithful respond to in a low mass, high mass and missa cantata? And what can they sing or not sing? It just seems to me like everyone has a different opinion on this. On one extreme I’m hearing that the faithful should just sit there and not say one word (not that thats bad or anything) and on the other I’m hearing that the faithful should respond to everything as the altar servers would. I am very interested in attending traditional masses (none close to me though) and would like to know what is expected of the faithful for the three kinds of masses I mentioned. I would greatly appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut with quotes from ecclesial documents. I just really want to know. Seems like no one agrees on this or that, there must be a definitive directive. Thank you all!

 

[bpbasilphx]

You may believe what you want to believe. I was there & am NOT relying on second hand observations. The two old excuses for not liking the EF., “people said their rosaries during Mass” & “the priest faced the wall” are the favorites for those who feel threatened by the TLM.

I’m not denying your experience. I’m glad you were taught to attend to the Liturgy itself. This does NOT change the fact that apparently so few were properly instructed in this manner.

Please do not deny my experience, or dismiss what I’ve seen with my own eyes as “second hand observations.”

And I certainly don’t feel threatened by the Extraordinary Form or any version of the Western Liturgy.

With one exception, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is celebrated with the priest facing east–the wall, if you prefer.

 

[giuseppeTO]

So in definitive, what can the faithful respond to in a low mass, high mass and missa cantata? And what can they sing or not sing? It just seems to me like everyone has a different opinion on this. On one extreme I’m hearing that the faithful should just sit there and not say one word (not that thats bad or anything) and on the other I’m hearing that the faithful should respond to everything as the altar servers would. I am very interested in attending traditional masses (none close to me though) and would like to know what is expected of the faithful for the three kinds of masses I mentioned. I would greatly appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut with quotes from ecclesial documents. I just really want to know. Seems like no one agrees on this or that, there must be a definitive directive. Thank you all!

I think you need to get beyond whether it is important for everyone to hear your responses (that is what I characterize as the modern fallacy). If you are at a Low Mass and you feel like responding along with the servers, but nobody is doing so, do it yourself in a voice audible only to yourself. God has very good hearing, It doesn’t matter if your neighbor hears you or not - pray sotta voce. It is not a rubrical matter for the failthful.

If it is a Missa Cantata and everyone is singing the Asperges, then sing in a like volume if you please. You will know immediately if it is the custom at that church. If only the schola or choir is singing, sing in soft voice. Its really not that difficult.

 

[Chatter163]

So in definitive, what can the faithful respond to in a low mass, high mass and missa cantata? And what can they sing or not sing? It just seems to me like everyone has a different opinion on this. On one extreme I’m hearing that the faithful should just sit there and not say one word (not that thats bad or anything) and on the other I’m hearing that the faithful should respond to everything as the altar servers would. I am very interested in attending traditional masses (none close to me though) and would like to know what is expected of the faithful for the three kinds of masses I mentioned. I would greatly appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut with quotes from ecclesial documents. I just really want to know. Seems like no one agrees on this or that, there must be a definitive directive. Thank you all!

There is:
De Musica Sacra et Sacra Liturgia
Read numbers 25-34.

 

[Alex_Luciano]

There is:
De Musica Sacra et Sacra Liturgia
Read numbers 25-34.

Wow! And people say that there was no participation at mass!? Was this document relfective of what was already the norm or was it total innovation? If it was an explanation of what was already the expected norm then i cannot see how so many decry that there was no participation of the faithful at mass. I wonder if these guidelines were widely observed. Thanks for giving me this link, it was a revelation!

 

[malphono]

Wow! And people say that there was no participation at mass!? Was this document relfective of what was already the norm or was it total innovation? If it was an explanation of what was already the expected norm then i cannot see how so many decry that there was no participation of the faithful at mass. I wonder if these guidelines were widely observed. Thanks for giving me this link, it was a revelation!

It wasn’t exactly innovation: in general, it was more of an attempt to reinforce the restoration of practices that had fallen by the wayside over the years.

As to whether it was widely observed, I suppose one can no, at least not in the US, where It seems to have met the same type of resistance as the missa recitata. Sadly, the implementation varied from diocese to diocese, even from parish to parish.