L
Lisa44
Guest
Hi Max,
Did you go to a low Mass or a high Mass?
Were you confused or were you able to follow along?
Did it make you want to attend one on a regular basis or are you content with the NO?
- Status
Did you go to a low Mass or a high Mass?
Were you confused or were you able to follow along?
Did it make you want to attend one on a regular basis or are you content with the NO?
S
system
Guest
OK! Take it easy. I did not go word by word through everyone’s statements, but I saw alot of back and forth between you and Brother Rolf and between you and OraPronobis and I thought was I was reading was disagreements about the new mass vs the old mass. Maybe it was just about music? Not sure right now.
So please don’t run off and do penance over my last comment. I’ve been working too hard lately and may have misunderstood.
S
system
Guest
Hi Lisa!
It was a high mass
A little of both - there was a printed up missal sort of thing that gave a word by word thing to follow. And strangely enough, my wife knew some of it. I had some Latin so I wasn’t totally clueless.
I would certainly go again.
I think there’s one in Mid-July in NE Philly.I would go again and bring my family again.I don’t hate the NO, but if there’s a choice (as there should be) I would regularly go to a TLM. (maybe both!)
C
catholicprayer
Guest
I started attending the Latin Mass here in Colorado at Christmas and I love it. We have the FSSP and daily morning Mass together with a Sunday High Mass so I try to go every day.I knew this Mass in my youth and had always felt, in the Novus Ordo, that something was missing, something just seemed to be lacking. It was, of course, the reverence for the Eucharist and the Mass itself. But more than that: Our FSSP pastor actually warns us about losing our immortal souls. He actually speaks about Satan, sin and temptation–topics I’d almost forgotten about. And as a result, I was on a path that would have certainly cost me my immortal soul. There was nothing sacred in my life; now there is. In these six months, thanks to the sanctity of this liturgy, the spiritual counseling I receive, and saying the Rosary and Sacred Heart devotions every day, I’ve become a different person. I’ve never known such inner peace. And High Mass?? Hey, let me tell you, I’m someone who used to spend my time at Mass looking at my watch (Novus Ordo) and fighting sleep during the homilies, Now, Sunday High Mass is the high point of my week. I look forward to it more than anything else. Not because my life is lacking; just the opposite.
My priorities have changed as well. Most of what I used to watch on TV no longer appeals to me. In fact, a lot of it repels me.
This shows me that what our nation needs in order to cure the sickness of our society is to embrace what is holy and what is sacred and certainly the best place to find that is in the Catholic faith.
I have to say also that we have a great Bishop in this diocese. He elevated our Latin Mass mission to a full parish a year ago. Last week he came and administered Confirmation in the old Latin rite, even though he doesn’t say the Latin Mass himself.
My priorities have changed as well. Most of what I used to watch on TV no longer appeals to me. In fact, a lot of it repels me.
This shows me that what our nation needs in order to cure the sickness of our society is to embrace what is holy and what is sacred and certainly the best place to find that is in the Catholic faith.
I have to say also that we have a great Bishop in this diocese. He elevated our Latin Mass mission to a full parish a year ago. Last week he came and administered Confirmation in the old Latin rite, even though he doesn’t say the Latin Mass himself.
C
catholicprayer
Guest
Hi Lisa!
It was a high mass
A little of both - there was a printed up missal sort of thing that gave a word by word thing to follow. And strangely enough, my wife knew some of it. I had some Latin so I wasn’t totally clueless.
I would certainly go again.
I don’t hate the NO, but if there’s a choice (as there should be) I would regularly go to a TLM. (maybe both!)
C
catholicprayer
Guest
Can you tell me where in N.E. Philly? My brother lives in Bucks County and would love to go but I don’t think he’s aware of it.
C
Cat
Guest
You sure did misunderstand.
As for my “disagreement” about music, I believe just what Holy Mother Church teaches–that chant should have “pride of place” in the Mass, including the OF Mass. I just don’t know exactly what that means in real life and I would like someone to tell me.
I personally don’t think it means eliminating perfectly beautiful and well-written hymns.
And although others disagree with me, I maintain that chant is harder to sing than hymns (I’m a pianist who does a lot of accompanying work.)
And “pride of place” or not, I personally…this is my personal opinion, NOT my pronouncement about what I in my great wisdom think the Church should implement!.. I prefer hymns with a strong, beautiful melody line and steady rhythm and MY OWN LANGAUGE rather than the dissonance of chants that meander all over random notes with no respect for any kind of scale or meter or time signature, and to top it all off, are done in language that I don’t understand. I’m a Westerner, an American through and through, and this kind of meandering music is quite difficult for me to understand or get anything out of! If others enjoy it and learn from it, I’m glad for them.
I own several CDs of Gregorian chant, and I don’t like them. I play them in an attempt to learn to like chant, and I don’t. Again, this is JMO–I’m not saying that the Church has to roll over and do things my way. I’m just a Philistine, and I do not even begin to think that I can tell the Church how to do things.
B
brotherhrolf
Guest
I did not have any intention to hijack this thread. I have had profound disagreements with Cat in the past because she is such a vocal proponent of the NO. Cat, I am very sory but I have to disagree with you. You freely admit that you do not care for Gregorian chant and you continue to use the old shibboleth that “we didn’t know what the Latin meant” as gospel truth. You know that you and I have “crossed swords” over this numerous times in the past.
I have to walk a very fine line in this because I understand, appreciate, and am whole heartedly glad that you joined HMC. My father was protestant, drove me to those 6am Low Masses on school days to serve, and only attended Mass with us on Christmas and Easter. But to state that no one in your area is interested in the TLM or chant because of the influence of some Protestant mega-church is demeaning to me and to every other Catholic who grew up with Latin, chant, and sacred motets not to mention that Larry Stockstill and Jimmy Swaggart are still right here and I don’t know of any Catholic who is willing to say they are swayed by either.
You are a Westerner and an American. So am I. I am of French, Irish, Scot, German and English ancestry. The overwhelming number of my ancestors were Catholic. (My paternal grandfather was Catholic until he married my divorced protestant grandmother in 1910). The Latin Mass was THE Mass until 1967. We sang chant in Latin and hymns in Latin in my high school’s school Masses every Friday until the closing bell rang in May of my sophomore year in 1967. Gregorian Chant is profoundly Western. It is the chant of the Western church.
The young people on this thread are discovering the Mass of their ancestors. They have had their fill of those of my boomer generation who abruptly abandoned over a thousand years of Catholic music and tradtion in favor of “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word”, “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and, yes, the music of that Protestant mega-church.
I am overjoyed with the FSSP and have a young friend from here on CAF who is starting his sophomore year in their seminary for whom I am praying.
I do not have adequate words to express how I felt then and how I feel now about having our roots torn out and thrown away 40+ years ago. The Holy Father has given his permission that we can once again participate in a sung High Mass (unless, of course, one’s bishop merely “acknowleges” the Motu Proprio).
March on, my younger brothers and sisters. March on. Discover those roots.
I have to walk a very fine line in this because I understand, appreciate, and am whole heartedly glad that you joined HMC. My father was protestant, drove me to those 6am Low Masses on school days to serve, and only attended Mass with us on Christmas and Easter. But to state that no one in your area is interested in the TLM or chant because of the influence of some Protestant mega-church is demeaning to me and to every other Catholic who grew up with Latin, chant, and sacred motets not to mention that Larry Stockstill and Jimmy Swaggart are still right here and I don’t know of any Catholic who is willing to say they are swayed by either.
You are a Westerner and an American. So am I. I am of French, Irish, Scot, German and English ancestry. The overwhelming number of my ancestors were Catholic. (My paternal grandfather was Catholic until he married my divorced protestant grandmother in 1910). The Latin Mass was THE Mass until 1967. We sang chant in Latin and hymns in Latin in my high school’s school Masses every Friday until the closing bell rang in May of my sophomore year in 1967. Gregorian Chant is profoundly Western. It is the chant of the Western church.
The young people on this thread are discovering the Mass of their ancestors. They have had their fill of those of my boomer generation who abruptly abandoned over a thousand years of Catholic music and tradtion in favor of “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word”, “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and, yes, the music of that Protestant mega-church.
I am overjoyed with the FSSP and have a young friend from here on CAF who is starting his sophomore year in their seminary for whom I am praying.
I do not have adequate words to express how I felt then and how I feel now about having our roots torn out and thrown away 40+ years ago. The Holy Father has given his permission that we can once again participate in a sung High Mass (unless, of course, one’s bishop merely “acknowleges” the Motu Proprio).
March on, my younger brothers and sisters. March on. Discover those roots.
S
system
Guest
Here’s an email I was forwarded - seems to be more like Elkins Park / Abington Area?
C
Cat
Guest
boldface mine, above–brotherhrolf, I have never accused you or any other Catholic of not understanding the Latin in the past. How would I know that?
What I have said is that I, me, myself, Cat, do not currently understand Latin.
Quite a difference.
I am tired of being accused of things that I have not said because others refuse to read what I actually say!!.
And I believe I’ve made it clear that if the Church should eliminate Mass in the vernacular, I would submit cheerfully because I believe that Holy Mother Church speaks with the Voice and Mind of Jesus Christ Himself, and I don’t.
brotherhrolf, you are too prickly and you are reading my posts incorrectly. I am not your enemy and I am not a modernist who wants to see traditions tossed out. I am not opposed to the TLM. In fact, if you do a search, you will find that I am a proponent of seeing TLM offered in as many locations as necessary in the U.S. so that no one will have to waste valuable time and precious gasoline (and money) driving far to attend. I think we will see this as more and more priests are trained and I am glad.
brotherhrolf, please do not accuse me again of being against the TLM. Please.
For myself personally–me only, I, Cat–yes, I prefer the OF Mass. But for others–I can’t possibly speak for them. As long as Holy Mother Church has made both choices available to the faithful, I am pleased that others can choose the Mass form that they are most blessed by.
And to be honest, this attitude of mine is a lot different from posters who accuse the OF of being banal, irreverent, Protestant, and all the rest.
I
Indyann
Guest
Well said! I am one who was educated by wonderful Franciscans and wonderful Benedictans for 12 years pre Vatican II.
I am also fortunate to live in a fairly Orthodox diocese. Oh, I know of one priest who comes down from the altar and shakes hands with everyone in the first row at the sign of peace. Doesn’t invalidate the Mass.
I know of one parish where they use a glass chalice. Doesn’t invalidate the Mass.
I know of one priest who says “friends” instead of desciples. Doesn’t invalidate the Mass.
If pre-vatII was such a Shangrila, why did most of those involved in the horrible scandals come from that era?
I am not against the TLM, which is easily accessible in this diocese, I just prefer to worship and think in my native tongue.
If that makes me a “modernist”, so be it.
B
brotherhrolf
Guest
Well, Indyann, if you were educated by Francisicans and Benedictines for twelve years before Vatican II then you are of an age with me and should not have bought into Cat’s shibboleth that you did not know what the Latin meant. And you rank right up there with Frank, Carlo, and Gary (whom I spoke to three weeks ago at our fortieth class reunion). All three admitted that they were more interested in “stirring the pot” forty years ago with the guitars and Simon and Garfunkle at our graduation Mass than implementing changes in the Mass.
Just like I enlisted in 1971 and just like I have sung Latin in a reverent NO cathedral choir for twenty years, am I upset by a glass chalice? No. Waterford crystal has been used at diocesan liturgies for years. In the Holy Name of God, what do the scandals have to do with what happened in 1967? I am not in any way, shape, or form being blasphemous. The pedophile scandals had nothing to do with liturgy. I am justifiably angry because I served way too many Low Masses with a priest with just the two of us present in 1965 and 1966. He was a combat veteran of WWII who was a parachutist who jumped at D-Day. Father B. directly inspired me to pursue my dream of becoming a historian.
So, one priest in your parish comes down and shakes hands with the folks in the front pew. Was this done when we were kids? Come to my local geographical parish and endure the five minutes that it takes for the sign of peace. Father is up and down the main aisle and both side aisles. Not to mention the five minute “turn around and introduce yourself to your fellow parishoner” at the start of Mass.
How utterly condescending. You, like my podnahs from high school make the very grave mistake that all of us were happy with what happened. All of us were not. I am tired of being pooh-poohed when my observations are equally valid. And I will not shut up. There was a whole bunch of us who were not happy but who submitted to the magesterium.
We’ve got a bunch of young folks who are interested in the Mass of their ancestors. We have a Pope who evidently believes that there are sufficient numbers of us who, way back in 1967, wondered why our roots were ripped out and thrown away.
Cat, I’m am once again sorry. You question me. You question us. There is absolutely no danger of HMC going back to the TLM. I do read what you actually say.
The folks on this thread are Catholics who are younger than me and who are trying to discover what it was their ancestors experineced.
What, exactly, is so frightening about that. OK, Cat. So Gregorian Chant has no meter. Just because it makes no sense to you, does that mean that I don’t have memories of hearing O Salutaris Hostia and Tantum Ergo sung by all those little old Italian ladies at OLPH novena on Tuesday night when I was an altar boy?
These threads come from young Catholics who are trying to discover what it was their ancestors experienced. Indyann - you weren’t happy back in '67- more power to you. You are happy with the NO in your parish, again, more power to you.
Ladies, this IS the traditonal Catholic forum. There are any number of us who were baptized and confirmed before Vatican II and who are stilll alive. If you weren’t opposed to us who say that we did know what the Latin meant, that we really prefered the Mass we had before 1967, etc…then why post. It is a simple question.
Cat, you and Indyann are entitled to your opinons. But so am I. You don’t want Latin; you don’t want chant; you don’t want sacred motets…more power to you. You have had forty years of transendance. The Holy Father has recognized that there were those of us who were left behind. I am a traditional Catholic. I don’t seek to inflict my will upon you. I am overjoyed to see young people (like my son) embrace the liturgy of their ancestors.
Just like I enlisted in 1971 and just like I have sung Latin in a reverent NO cathedral choir for twenty years, am I upset by a glass chalice? No. Waterford crystal has been used at diocesan liturgies for years. In the Holy Name of God, what do the scandals have to do with what happened in 1967? I am not in any way, shape, or form being blasphemous. The pedophile scandals had nothing to do with liturgy. I am justifiably angry because I served way too many Low Masses with a priest with just the two of us present in 1965 and 1966. He was a combat veteran of WWII who was a parachutist who jumped at D-Day. Father B. directly inspired me to pursue my dream of becoming a historian.
So, one priest in your parish comes down and shakes hands with the folks in the front pew. Was this done when we were kids? Come to my local geographical parish and endure the five minutes that it takes for the sign of peace. Father is up and down the main aisle and both side aisles. Not to mention the five minute “turn around and introduce yourself to your fellow parishoner” at the start of Mass.
How utterly condescending. You, like my podnahs from high school make the very grave mistake that all of us were happy with what happened. All of us were not. I am tired of being pooh-poohed when my observations are equally valid. And I will not shut up. There was a whole bunch of us who were not happy but who submitted to the magesterium.
We’ve got a bunch of young folks who are interested in the Mass of their ancestors. We have a Pope who evidently believes that there are sufficient numbers of us who, way back in 1967, wondered why our roots were ripped out and thrown away.
Cat, I’m am once again sorry. You question me. You question us. There is absolutely no danger of HMC going back to the TLM. I do read what you actually say.
The folks on this thread are Catholics who are younger than me and who are trying to discover what it was their ancestors experineced.
What, exactly, is so frightening about that. OK, Cat. So Gregorian Chant has no meter. Just because it makes no sense to you, does that mean that I don’t have memories of hearing O Salutaris Hostia and Tantum Ergo sung by all those little old Italian ladies at OLPH novena on Tuesday night when I was an altar boy?
These threads come from young Catholics who are trying to discover what it was their ancestors experienced. Indyann - you weren’t happy back in '67- more power to you. You are happy with the NO in your parish, again, more power to you.
Ladies, this IS the traditonal Catholic forum. There are any number of us who were baptized and confirmed before Vatican II and who are stilll alive. If you weren’t opposed to us who say that we did know what the Latin meant, that we really prefered the Mass we had before 1967, etc…then why post. It is a simple question.
Cat, you and Indyann are entitled to your opinons. But so am I. You don’t want Latin; you don’t want chant; you don’t want sacred motets…more power to you. You have had forty years of transendance. The Holy Father has recognized that there were those of us who were left behind. I am a traditional Catholic. I don’t seek to inflict my will upon you. I am overjoyed to see young people (like my son) embrace the liturgy of their ancestors.
C
Cat
Guest
Correction, brotherhrolf, I have had 40 years of Protestantism. Until I became a Catholic, I had no idea that Catholics ever did a Mass in Latin or that it all changed in the 1960s. I did not know that because I was evangelical Protestant and knew nothing about Catholicism.
You did it again–you accused me of saying that Catholics didn’t understand the Latin. And again, I’m telling you that I have never said that. ** If you say this about me again, I will report you to the moderators. **I’m very tired of being accused of things that I have never said. You show me the specific post where I specifically said that no one back then understood the Latin, and I’ll apologize to you. But you won’t find that post, because I have never said such a thing.
As far as I’m concerned, you are accusing me of challenging Holy Mother Church, and I consider that a grave, grave sin and don’t appreciate being accused of it.
And I don’t know what a Shibboleth is.
**PLEASE stop trying to make it look like I (and others) are attempting to wrest the TLM Mass and chant and Latin away from all of you who like it. This is extremely hurtful of you. You are being a bully to me right now. I have never said such a thing. I refer only to myself when I say that I do not like chant, but I have never suggested that it be removed from Mass. ** I don’t have the right to say that. But I do have the right to not appreciate a style of music. Again, if you don’t stop saying these things about me, I will report you to the moderators. The moderators don’t like it when I report people, but honestly, I can’t take being accused falsely in an online setting. Certain people may read your accusations about me and assume that you are telling the truth.
B
brotherhrolf
Guest
Please, report me to mods. I have already reported myself. This is the Traditional Catholic forum. I am not trying to hurt you but I am trying to understand why you put so much effort into denigrating chant and questioning us who grew up with Latin.
You don’t want Latin? You don’t want chant? Fine. You make me feel tawdry and cheap because I do. This particular thread was about a young Catholic experiencing his or her first Latin Mass. This is the Mass of their granpatents, great-grandparets, great-great grandparents ad infinitum. You do everything in your power to make sure that everyone knows that YOU do not like chant and that YOU do not see any necessity for the TLM. Am I not able to read? Am I not able to determine your weltanschung?
I am a cradle Roman Catholic who is drawn to that same traditional Catholicsim under which I was brought up… My ancestors (with the exception of my paternal grandmother) were Roman Catholics. I grew up with the EF when it wasn’t extraordinary. I was an altar boy until 1968.
I will report myself once again once I am finished with this. Credo, Cat. Credo. I believe. You are correct. You have had 40 years of Protestantism and I have had 57 years of Catholicism. You cannot rob me of my past or that of my ancestors. You don’t like chant. You find the EF “out there”, fine. No traditional Catholic is askng you to a) sing chant, or b) be subjected to an EF Mass in your parish. None. Nada. No one.
I will continue to report myself. My response is the rsponse of those of us who submitted to the magesterium of HMC forty years ago and who pined for that which was lost. I speak for my mother. I speak for my neighbors who where marginalized and saw the communion rails ripped out.
Stop the hypocrisy Cat. You arent’ posting on Liturgy and Sacrsments… You don;'t like chant. You don’t see the point of the EF. FINE! Absoulely Fine.! Leave us alone.
Oh, parse your words Cat. Parse them. You have admitted that you do not undertand Gregorian chant and that the EF means nothing to you. I will report myself. DUH!
I have waited and prayed for forty years that we would reclaim our heritage in HMC. I was appalled in 1969 with singing “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and " Sounds of Silence" at my high school graduation Mass. Not to mention the equally exorable “Sons of God” and “And They;ll know we are Christians”. But I can’t have these feelings much less express them.
C
Cat
Guest
Hey, friends. A little help, here, please. :stretcher: I feel like I’m being attacked, and all of you are just standing around watching. I would really like it if you stepped up before I get beat up any worse. Pull him off me. Thanks!
Cat
Cat
J
JustaServant
Guest
Who’s ‘us’?
Chill out dude. You’re sounding like a wide-eyed. Seriously.
Oh, and I think you owe her an apology for your less than polite comments.
S
system
Guest
Actually, I’m standing around here, wondering WHY you keep coming to this forum? There are dozens of others focused on other interests.
I started this thread (and thanks for calling me YOUNG Brother Rolf!
) because I wanted to relate my story of my first TLM to those who have long been going.And, with carefully chosen words, you seem to have consistently rained on my parade. (I say rained but…)
I hope this doesn’t sound too strong, but one minute you’re on the attack and the next you’re a helpless victim.
Help us to communicate to you in a better way:shrug:
Pax
(that’s peace for us Latin speakers!
)
B
brotherhrolf
Guest
Wow. I have always tested highly for my verbal skills.When someone calls a spade, a spade, I can usually spot it as in this case.
Max? I wonder the same thing myself. You are spot on with “carefully chosen words”.
Fear not y’all. I have reported myself Forty+ years ago I, my parents, my aunts and uncles and my neighbors participated in a TLM Missa Cantata in my home parish, home archdiocese, and at my Catholic boy’s high school. For forty + years I have prayed and hoped that that which I knew 40+ years ago would be restored. The Holy Father saw fit to restore it.
There are young people who have discovered that which I knew. We have a member who has stated that she does not care for Gregorian chant or the Latin Mass and who routinely questions the motives of those who us who do. I grew up with the TLM. I made my First Communion and Confirmation before Vatican II and I am condemned because the Mass of my childhood/adolesence is not acceptable. I served my grandmother’s Requiem Mass in January of 1965. I guess that’s just plain wrong because we did not know what Requiem aeternam dona eis requiem et lux perpetua luceat eis meant. I didn’t even have to Google the phrase.
If you don’t like chant…If you don’t want to attend a TLM. Fine. This is the traditonal Catholic forum. Indyann? You guys “won” forty years ago. As sister used to say, “a guilty conscience needs no accuser”. Cat? Please have the human decency to let Catholics discover the Mass of their ancestors. You don’t want a TLM? You don’t want Gregorian chant. Fine. Leave those of us who do in peace.
I will report myself as soon as I post this. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I am sorry I am not telling you what you want to hear.
Max? I wonder the same thing myself. You are spot on with “carefully chosen words”.
Fear not y’all. I have reported myself Forty+ years ago I, my parents, my aunts and uncles and my neighbors participated in a TLM Missa Cantata in my home parish, home archdiocese, and at my Catholic boy’s high school. For forty + years I have prayed and hoped that that which I knew 40+ years ago would be restored. The Holy Father saw fit to restore it.
There are young people who have discovered that which I knew. We have a member who has stated that she does not care for Gregorian chant or the Latin Mass and who routinely questions the motives of those who us who do. I grew up with the TLM. I made my First Communion and Confirmation before Vatican II and I am condemned because the Mass of my childhood/adolesence is not acceptable. I served my grandmother’s Requiem Mass in January of 1965. I guess that’s just plain wrong because we did not know what Requiem aeternam dona eis requiem et lux perpetua luceat eis meant. I didn’t even have to Google the phrase.
If you don’t like chant…If you don’t want to attend a TLM. Fine. This is the traditonal Catholic forum. Indyann? You guys “won” forty years ago. As sister used to say, “a guilty conscience needs no accuser”. Cat? Please have the human decency to let Catholics discover the Mass of their ancestors. You don’t want a TLM? You don’t want Gregorian chant. Fine. Leave those of us who do in peace.
I will report myself as soon as I post this. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I am sorry I am not telling you what you want to hear.
- Status