My first Traditional Latin Mass

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Wow. I have always tested highly for my verbal skills.When someone calls a spade, a spade, I can usually spot it as in this case.

Max? I wonder the same thing myself. You are spot on with “carefully chosen words”.

Fear not y’all. I have reported myself Forty+ years ago I, my parents, my aunts and uncles and my neighbors participated in a TLM Missa Cantata in my home parish, home archdiocese, and at my Catholic boy’s high school. For forty + years I have prayed and hoped that that which I knew 40+ years ago would be restored. The Holy Father saw fit to restore it.

There are young people who have discovered that which I knew. We have a member who has stated that she does not care for Gregorian chant or the Latin Mass and who routinely questions the motives of those who us who do. I grew up with the TLM. I made my First Communion and Confirmation before Vatican II and I am condemned because the Mass of my childhood/adolesence is not acceptable. I served my grandmother’s Requiem Mass in January of 1965. I guess that’s just plain wrong because we did not know what Requiem aeternam dona eis requiem et lux perpetua luceat eis meant. I didn’t even have to Google the phrase.

If you don’t like chant…If you don’t want to attend a TLM. Fine. This is the traditonal Catholic forum. Indyann? You guys “won” forty years ago. As sister used to say, “a guilty conscience needs no accuser”. Cat? Please have the human decency to let Catholics discover the Mass of their ancestors. You don’t want a TLM? You don’t want Gregorian chant. Fine. Leave those of us who do in peace.

I will report myself as soon as I post this. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I am sorry I am not telling you what you want to hear.
I don’t know what you are talking about. Verbal skills have nothing to do with reading comprehension.

Who are “you guys”? And what did we win?

And I have nothing to be guilty about.

And I am a traditional Catholic, whether you agree or not.

Your posts are incoherent for the most part.

And your anger is very ugly. Sorry I’m not telling you what you want to hear.
 
Please, report me to mods. I have already reported myself. This is the Traditional Catholic forum. I am not trying to hurt you but I am trying to understand why you put so much effort into denigrating chant and questioning us who grew up with Latin.

You don’t want Latin? You don’t want chant? Fine. You make me feel tawdry and cheap because I do. This particular thread was about a young Catholic experiencing his or her first Latin Mass. This is the Mass of their granpatents, great-grandparets, great-great grandparents ad infinitum. You do everything in your power to make sure that everyone knows that YOU do not like chant and that YOU do not see any necessity for the TLM. Am I not able to read? Am I not able to determine your weltanschung?

I am a cradle Roman Catholic who is drawn to that same traditional Catholicsim under which I was brought up… My ancestors (with the exception of my paternal grandmother) were Roman Catholics. I grew up with the EF when it wasn’t extraordinary. I was an altar boy until 1968.

I will report myself once again once I am finished with this. Credo, Cat. Credo. I believe. You are correct. You have had 40 years of Protestantism and I have had 57 years of Catholicism. You cannot rob me of my past or that of my ancestors. You don’t like chant. You find the EF “out there”, fine. No traditional Catholic is askng you to a) sing chant, or b) be subjected to an EF Mass in your parish. None. Nada. No one.

I will continue to report myself. My response is the rsponse of those of us who submitted to the magesterium of HMC forty years ago and who pined for that which was lost. I speak for my mother. I speak for my neighbors who where marginalized and saw the communion rails ripped out.

Stop the hypocrisy Cat. You arent’ posting on Liturgy and Sacrsments… You don;'t like chant. You don’t see the point of the EF. FINE! Absoulely Fine.! Leave us alone.

Oh, parse your words Cat. Parse them. You have admitted that you do not undertand Gregorian chant and that the EF means nothing to you. I will report myself. DUH!

I have waited and prayed for forty years that we would reclaim our heritage in HMC. I was appalled in 1969 with singing “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and " Sounds of Silence" at my high school graduation Mass. Not to mention the equally exorable “Sons of God” and “And They;ll know we are Christians”. But I can’t have these feelings much less express them.
Brother Rolf: Come on. Be fair. No one is trying to make you feel tawdry. Also, we ALL get the “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” and “Sound of Silence” thing, really, I don’t know anyone who would not agree with that. I bet even the the liberal nuns and clergy out there are thinking,“Wow, are we chagrined! Who made that call?”

Yes, Gregorian chant should have pride of place. But other music CAN be appropriate for Mass. The Church has NOT said otherwise. I don’t remember when or where or the exact words, so you’ll forgive me for a lack of citation, but HH Pope Benedict XVI said at some point in his papacy that contemporary music that is used in Mass needed to have it’s roots in Gregorian Chant/polyphony/the music that has gone before. That seems to be an admission that we can use that as our foundation and develop other music. In my parish, our music director is a professional composer and arranger. He has taken the entrance and communion antiphons, set them to rather austere tunes, and they are accompanied by either the oragan and a cello or the piano and a cello. It’s magnificent. Our schola is a professional paid group and we take the job seriously. We do a mix of stuff, some old traditional (Asperges Me), some of OCP’s stuff. We don’t use anything that’s heretical, but even some of the banal tunage sounds really good if you have a competent arrangement (our director redoes them) sung with dynamics as opposed to a nun who has to look at her hands when she changes chords on her ubiquitous guitar. The atmosphere at Mass has dramatically improved, we get complimented all the time, and (rather cynical observation) the collections are up.

And no, no one is going to leave the Traditional Forum alone! Do you know how much MISINFORMATION is past along in some of these threads? Please. It’s spiritual act of mercy to correct a brother who is in the wrong regarding the teaching of the Church.
 
Keep in mind that the Extraordinary Form is not a panacea for vocations.

The first big wave of priests AND bishops who left their ministries were raised on and trained in this rite and celebrated it almost exclusively.
Well, yeh, they left because they were forced to say only the Novus Ordo and couldn’t accept the New Age stuff.
 
It wasn’t always said in the same language. For centuries, the Pian Mass was celebrated in Slavonic in certain dioceses of Croatia and in Chinese in some pleaces of China.

Did you know that?
So could you give us the number and percentage of Catholics who attended the Pian Mass? I don’t know the history of the Pian Mass so was this a Mass native to the Church or was it adopted by the Church? I’m curious.
 
And I did not know that preferring one language over another precluded one from considering oneself as a traditional Catholic.
Likewise for those who don’t consider themselves traditional but still prefer Latin over any vernacular. 🙂
 
Yes, Gregorian chant should have pride of place. But other music CAN be appropriate for Mass.
Can you name one of these others that was mentioned at Vatican II?
It’s spiritual act of mercy to correct a brother who is in the wrong regarding the teaching of the Church.
Are you that qualified? Wow! What are your credentials exactly?
 
Can you name one of these others that was mentioned at Vatican II?

Are you that qualified? Wow! What are your credentials exactly?
Popes aren’t bound in disciplinary matters by councils or previous popes. Take for example, the oft-mentioned (and shrilly, at that) fact that VII called for the retention of Latin. Ok, I stipulate to that…VII called for the retention of Latin. Here’s the deal: The vernacular mass exists in the vernacular to the extent that it does because the POPE gave to national/regional bishops the right to determine to what extent the vernacular would be used, with the translations to be approved by the Holy See. So the Mass in the native tongue of the local populace resulted from the PROPER and LEGITIMATE approval by the Holy See. A conflict? No (unless you want to closely examine the fact that “traditionalists” want to bemoan the lack of Latin by appealing to Vatican II, a council they generally despise…now that’s a conflict). Also strangely curious, those bishops at the Council seemed in the short years after the last session to rather quickly embrace the idea of the vernacular Mass.

As for my credentials, well, they aren’t as good as the Pope’s, but given some of the stuff you’ve posted, I’m okay with them.

Look up the corporal and spiritual acts of Mercy. You’ll like them…they’re “traditional.”
 
Wow. I have always tested highly for my verbal skills.When someone calls a spade, a spade, I can usually spot it as in this case.

Max? I wonder the same thing myself. You are spot on with “carefully chosen words”.

Fear not y’all. I have reported myself Forty+ years ago I, my parents, my aunts and uncles and my neighbors participated in a TLM Missa Cantata in my home parish, home archdiocese, and at my Catholic boy’s high school. For forty + years I have prayed and hoped that that which I knew 40+ years ago would be restored. The Holy Father saw fit to restore it.

There are young people who have discovered that which I knew. We have a member who has stated that she does not care for Gregorian chant or the Latin Mass and who routinely questions the motives of those who us who do. I grew up with the TLM. I made my First Communion and Confirmation before Vatican II and I am condemned because the Mass of my childhood/adolesence is not acceptable. I served my grandmother’s Requiem Mass in January of 1965. I guess that’s just plain wrong because we did not know what Requiem aeternam dona eis requiem et lux perpetua luceat eis meant. I didn’t even have to Google the phrase.

If you don’t like chant…If you don’t want to attend a TLM. Fine. This is the traditonal Catholic forum. Indyann? You guys “won” forty years ago. As sister used to say, “a guilty conscience needs no accuser”. Cat? Please have the human decency to let Catholics discover the Mass of their ancestors. You don’t want a TLM? You don’t want Gregorian chant. Fine. Leave those of us who do in peace.

I will report myself as soon as I post this. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I am sorry I am not telling you what you want to hear.
boldface, above. I DO NOT!!! PROVE IT!!! SHOW ME THE QUOTES!!!

I have NEVER questioned the motives of those who attend TLM. You are thinking of others, not me.
 
Actually, I’m standing around here, wondering WHY you keep coming to this forum? There are dozens of others focused on other interests.

I started this thread (and thanks for calling me YOUNG Brother Rolf!👍) because I wanted to relate my story of my first TLM to those who have long been going.

And, with carefully chosen words, you seem to have consistently rained on my parade. (I say rained but…)

I hope this doesn’t sound too strong, but one minute you’re on the attack and the next you’re a helpless victim. 🤷

Help us to communicate to you in a better way:shrug:

Pax
(that’s peace for us Latin speakers!:D)
Apparently, you missed my initial post in this thread. So I’ll repeat this.

In Post #5, Alan F says this: …offering the (TLM) Mass attracts me to the priesthood, the Novus Ordo repulses me from it though.

This post is why I came to this thread. I objected to a man entering the priesthood who is “repulsed” by a legitimately-Church-recognized and Church-honored form of the Mass, the Novus Ordo.

I did NOT object to your interest in the TLM. I did NOT rain on YOUR parade.

I merely pointed out to this young man, Alan F, that a priest of the Church cannot be “repulsed” by that which the Church Herself considers good and proper and efficacious for Catholics.

max37, are you saying that I should just sit back and allow insulting comments about the OF of the Mass to fly right by? Is THAT what the Traditional Forum is for–“Come here and freely bash the OF?!” Surely you know better than that.

You and others like brotherhrolf won’t even allow someone to say that they don’t like chant and Latin!! That’s a LOT DIFFERENT than a prospective priest saying that he is REPULSED BY a legitimate and honored Mass form. I will NOT let that fly by. If Traditionalists want to cheer for this young man, then they are misguided. I personally won’t cheer for a priest who disses the OF.

Yes, I personally dislike chant and I personally have a hard time with attending a Mass in a language that I don’t understand. I came out of an evangelical background, and this background discourages Christians from seeking “experiences” and this background encourages Christians to study and understand what they are taught. I can’t help my background and up-bringing.

But I NEVER, EVER condemn or denigrate others because they prefer the TLM, Latin in the OF, or chant/classical music in Mass. I have asked you once to please provide the quotes proving that I have denigrated the Latin Mass and tried to convince people like you not to attend. You have not provided such quotes,

Bt you continue to berate me anyway and make claims that I am dissing the TLM.

I am not.

And if you think I am, PROVIDE THE PROOF!! Post the quotes where I actually said, “People should not attend the TLM.” POST THEM!!! Stating a personal opinion–e.g., “I don’t like chant” or “I prefer my own heart language”–is NOT a dismissal of the TLM and it does NOT discourage others like yourself from attending.
 
Dang. I’m starting to understand why the moderators shut this part of the forum down for a while. It’s starting to look like the Fighting Fundamentalist Forum.
 
Yes, indeed, I am angry. Indyann, my verbal acuity skills which include reading comprehension rank right up there courtesy of my Catholic education and they are not inseperable. Call me on it Indyann. I will compare my scores from way back when to yours any day. ACT. SAT or those reading programs that we used in the classroom using colors in which I was already reading at the college level in sixth grade.

This is not about me. Fact: this is the Traditional Catholic forum, correct? Fact: the topic of this thread is “My first Tradional Latin Mass.” Simple, simple, logic. So, what does a “young” Catholic need to know about “how we didn’t know what was being said” and that Gregorian chant is disliked?

You guys, Indyann, are, well, you guys. You are my classmates in 1967. You “won” forty years ago. You got your Waterford crystal. You got Father running up and down the aisles, the a’grinnin’ and a’strummin" guitar masses and at the same time you pushed my parents and those of my parent’s generation to the outskirts of the Church.

Behold! Here comes someone who carefully parses words. Do I not have a rational mind that when I have a poster who consitently posts on the TC forum against the TLM and against Gregorian Chant… A person who caveats with “Mea Culpa”.

The title of the tread is “My first Traditonal Latin Mass”. You and that other poster don’t like the TLM.? More power to you.

You are d… straight. I am ANGRY. These are people who are discovering the Mass of their ancestors. You “guys” got your way forty years ago.

Certain people do everything in their power because …

JKirk, I’m sorry my friend. There are false flags being flown. I repeat. The title of this tread in "My first Traditional Latin Mass.

How I wish and long for a Missa Cantata or a sung Solemn High Mass.

No, can’t have that because …

You win Cat. You win. You don’t see the utter irony in your posts nor do you give a fig. You take from me my heritage and the heritage of those of us because you don’t like Latin and chant is…

This is the traditional Cathoic forum. You are not a trational Catholic, Cat. I appreciate your conversion, Cat. I believe quite differntly from you. I am tired of it. Sick and tired of it.

I would to God that I could return to the TLM. This is not hyperbole on my part. I stand as I have always stood. I have prayed for 40 + years.

So, the Holy Father, the vicar of Christ on earth, says that the TLM is OK.

Not according to some who would take away…
 
Yes, indeed, I am angry. Indyann, my verbal acuity skills which include reading comprehension rank right up there courtesy of my Catholic education and they are not inseperable. Call me on it Indyann. I will compare my scores from way back when to yours any day. ACT. SAT or those reading programs that we used in the classroom using colors in which I was already reading at the college level in sixth grade.

I have no intention of getting into a “spitting contest” with you. (though you might be surprised) That is neither here nor there.

This is not about me. Fact: this is the Traditional Catholic forum, correct? Fact: the topic of this thread is “My first Tradional Latin Mass.” Simple, simple, logic. So, what does a “young” Catholic need to know about “how we didn’t know what was being said” and that Gregorian chant is disliked?

Fact: I NEVER said “we didn’t know what was being said”

Fact: I NEVER said that I did not like Gregorian chant. I have two CD’s that I listen to quite frequently. Unfortunately, these CD’s did not come with an English translation of the prayers.

You guys, Indyann, are, well, you guys. You are my classmates in 1967. You “won” forty years ago. You got your Waterford crystal. You got Father running up and down the aisles, the a’grinnin’ and a’strummin" guitar masses and at the same time you pushed my parents and those of my parent’s generation to the outskirts of the Church.

More baseless assumptions. In 1967, I was married with 2 babies.
I had no part in deciding what kind of chalices or music was used at Mass. Nobody asked me what I thought.
I didn’t push your parent’s generation anywhere.

Behold! Here comes someone who carefully parses words. Do I not have a rational mind that when I have a poster who consitently posts on the TC forum against the TLM and against Gregorian Chant… A person who caveats with “Mea Culpa”.

If my memory serves me correctly, are YOU not the person who caveats with “Mea Culpa”?
I know it was not me, because I have nothing to mea culpa about in concerning my preferences of Liturgy.

itle of the tread is “My first Traditonal Latin Mass”. You and that other poster don’t like the TLM.? More power to you.

Did I say I don’t like the TLM? Another baseless assumption.

I voiced my preference for Liturgy in the vernacular.

You are d… straight. I am ANGRY. These are people who are discovering the Mass of their ancestors. You “guys” got your way forty years ago.

It does appear that your anger and bitterness is compromising your ability to logically perceive the actual words that are presented before you.

Certain people do everything in their power because …

JKirk, I’m sorry my friend. There are false flags being flown. I repeat. The title of this tread in "My first Traditional Latin Mass.

How I wish and long for a Missa Cantata or a sung Solemn High Mass.

No, can’t have that because …

Your anger is misdirected. Should be to your Bishop, not to those who happen to hold a different view than you.

You win Cat. You win. You don’t see the utter irony in your posts nor do you give a fig. You take from me my heritage and the heritage of those of us because you don’t like Latin and chant is…

This is the traditional Cathoic forum. You are not a trational Catholic, Cat. I appreciate your conversion, Cat. I believe quite differntly from you. I am tired of it. Sick and tired of it.

I would to God that I could return to the TLM. This is not hyperbole on my part. I stand as I have always stood. I have prayed for 40 + years.

So, the Holy Father, the vicar of Christ on earth, says that the TLM is OK.

Not according to some who would take away…
 
(That I can remember!) I was born in '62 so I probably attended Latin Masses, but today is the first one I’ve attended as an adult.

It was beautiful. I was very impressed by the extreme reverence for the host. It seemed to be treated much better than what I experience every Sunday.

It also seems to make the vocation of the priesthood something to aspire to. If I had seen that growing up, who knows? Maybe I would have considered the seminary?
I’m still waiting for one to show up in WV. I will be attending one in Pittsburgh in a couple of weeks. I am using a Latin Mass missel to try to familiarize myself with the Latin language so I won’t look totally clueless. To it’s fascinating, not just the language, but the ceremony and pomp associated with it.
 
I’m still waiting for one to show up in WV. I will be attending one in Pittsburgh in a couple of weeks. I am using a Latin Mass missel to try to familiarize myself with the Latin language so I won’t look totally clueless. To it’s fascinating, not just the language, but the ceremony and pomp associated with it.
We have weekly TLM’s in Birmingham (about an hour from me and a different diocese). And they have the occasional one at Mother Angelica’s Monastery which is the most beautiful thing you’ve ever heard. The nuns there can sing!

I find that the TLM illustrates Catholic theology of the Mass in a more complete way. It’s a little hard to explain, but versus populum seems to be out of place. That’s just me though. And I know there are ad orientem OF Masses (I’ve never been to one).

We hope to get the EF here in the capitol city before too long. Summorum Pontificum has not yet “sunk in” here.

Which missal do you use and do you like it? I’ll be dropping some coin on one soon since I go once or twice a month now. I’m still trying to make up my mind. It’s between the Baronius Press one and the Angelus Press missal with Baronius winning by a hair right now.
 
Apparently, you missed my initial post in this thread. So I’ll repeat this.

In Post #5, Alan F says this: …offering the (TLM) Mass attracts me to the priesthood, the Novus Ordo repulses me from it though.

This post is why I came to this thread. I objected to a man entering the priesthood who is “repulsed” by a legitimately-Church-recognized and Church-honored form of the Mass, the Novus Ordo.
Well, CAT, I’m no expert on this, but didn’t Pope John Paul 2 create the FSSP as a church-approved order intended to teach young seminarians to carry on the Latin tradition? They spend years learning to do the TLM.

Your argument seems to be that a priest has to love both masses equally, but I think our church has offered them this option, and to tell priests otherwise is wrong.

Let’s put this into plainer terms - a young medical student is extremely talented and has his heart set on becoming a heart surgeon - and he’s going to be an excellent one and save many lives. Then he happens to say out loud, “I am repulsed by Gastronomic surgery! I cannot stand the bowels and all their twists and turns! But I love the beauty of Heart,. In fact, Heart surgery makes me want to be a surgeon, and Bowel surgeries make me want to never be a surgeon!”

In this case, is it fair? Sane? or even valid ? to tell him he should NOT BECOME A SURGEON!?

Wouldn’t that be a serious loss to the medical world?
If both specialties are valid, why would you withhold him from one ? And why would you affect all those lives that could have been saved had he followed his CALLING?

So, now that we’ve seen it in plainer terms, your telling that young man NOT to become a priest (in his own specialty) is a serious loss to Holy Mother Church, is it not?!

Is it not second guessing our pope and judging that you know better?
 
Max, I’m curious, are you attracted to an order such as the FSSP or ICKSP?

From what I understand, it can be a sacrifice since a diocese won’t normally pick up the tab.
 
Well, CAT, I’m no expert on this, but didn’t Pope John Paul 2 create the FSSP as a church-approved order intended to teach young seminarians to carry on the Latin tradition? They spend years learning to do the TLM.

Your argument seems to be that a priest has to love both masses equally, but I think our church has offered them this option, and to tell priests otherwise is wrong.

Let’s put this into plainer terms - a young medical student is extremely talented and has his heart set on becoming a heart surgeon - and he’s going to be an excellent one and save many lives. Then he happens to say out loud, “I am repulsed by Gastronomic surgery! I cannot stand the bowels and all their twists and turns! But I love the beauty of Heart,. In fact, Heart surgery makes me want to be a surgeon, and Bowel surgeries make me want to never be a surgeon!”

In this case, is it fair? Sane? or even valid ? to tell him he should NOT BECOME A SURGEON!?

Wouldn’t that be a serious loss to the medical world?
If both specialties are valid, why would you withhold him from one ? And why would you affect all those lives that could have been saved had he followed his CALLING?

So, now that we’ve seen it in plainer terms, your telling that young man NOT to become a priest (in his own specialty) is a serious loss to Holy Mother Church, is it not?!

Is it not second guessing our pope and judging that you know better?
The two do not compare AT ALL. Yes, the young surgeon WOULD be a loss. In the case of the two forms, NO, the priest who cannot celebrate BOTH would not be a loss (see the example of Cardinal Martini, who dissed the EF. He’s equally WRONG). And since the Servant of God Pope John Paul II formed the FFSP, HH Pope Benedict has said that priests cannot refuse to say the newer form.

(From my post, #23, quoting the cover letter to the bishops for the MP):

"It’s a perfectly legitimate question to ask. The poster to whom Cat was responding is as in the wrong as Cardinal Martini, the retired and very liberal Archbishop of Milan, who said that he would NEVER offer the EF. Not acceptable.

It also seems VERY contrary to the cover letter which HH Pope Benedict XVI issued to the bishops of the world regarding the Motu Proprio, contrary to his expressed desires. If the young man cannot bring himself in line with that, I certainly hope that it will be discerned by those in authority that we don’t need that kind of priest in the Church at all.

"I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church. Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden. This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to unable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew. I think of a sentence in the Second Letter to the Corinthians, where Paul writes: "Our mouth is open to you, Corinthians; our heart is wide. You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections. In return … widen your hearts also!" (2 Cor 6:11-13). Paul was certainly speaking in another context, but his exhortation can and must touch us too, precisely on this subject. Let us generously open our hearts and make room for everything that the faith itself allows.

There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture. What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place. Needless to say, in order to experience full communion,** the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books. The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness."**

Priests are priests of a RITE, though some are bi-ritual. Both forms are part of the Latin Rite.
 
Please do your homework on how the FSSP was formed.

Your cardiovascular surgeon would have never made it through medical school. Some gastroenteroligist would have put his lights out long before he got a chance to choose a speciality:)
 
Max, I’m curious, are you attracted to an order such as the FSSP or ICKSP?

From what I understand, it can be a sacrifice since a diocese won’t normally pick up the tab.
They’re very traditional - they probably would not take me with a wife and kids!
 
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