My friend from church told me he thinks he is interested in other men

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Arclight said:
You mean, you applied a cost/benefit analysis to the kid’s situation and determined it was either “seduction” or “recruitment”?

Did you use generally accepted accounting principles?
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What I did, and what it seems you are failing to do, is to take into account all the date. “The kid” is not the only actor in this little drama. We must also concern ourselves with the OP who is confused over this situation, her capacity to accurately convey the Church’s teaching, ability to address an issue involving extreme psychosexual pathology and the potential that her closeness to the situation may lead her into apostasy in the interests of preserving the “friendship”. If this “friend” means to use the OP as a thing from which he draws some mere measure of his own metal comfort, this is hardly better than his using a member of the same sex as an object for his physical gratification.

The OP needs to understand her limits in this regard. She should not presume to style herself as her friend’s savior. Christ is the only savior that this same-sex attracted individual needs and it is imperative that the OP do nothing to stand in the way of that.
 
Other_Eric said:
What I did, and what it seems you are failing to do, is to take into account all the date. “The kid” is not the only actor in this little drama. We must also concern ourselves with the OP who is confused over this situation, her capacity to accurately convey the Church’s teaching, ability to address an issue involving extreme psychosexual pathology and the potential that her closeness to the situation may lead her into apostasy in the interests of preserving the “friendship”. If this “friend” means to use the OP as a thing from which he draws some mere measure of his own metal comfort, this is hardly better than his using a member of the same sex as an object for his physical gratification.

The OP needs to understand her limits in this regard. She should not presume to style herself as her friend’s savior. Christ is the only savior that this same-sex attracted individual needs and it is imperative that the OP do nothing to stand in the way of that.
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Yeah, well, we’re talking about two kids (a friend and another who hasn’t actually done anything) and you’ve said that its either a case of Seduction or Recruitment. So, in light of that bizarre contention, the Orwellian clock struck 13 O’clock and the talk of a “cost/benefit analysis”, “extreme psychosexual pathology”, “apostasy”, and “making an end run around the Cross” isn’t something that I see anyone taking seriously. Its a parody of the Spanish Inquisition. Your complete lack of any compassion doesn’t help much either.
 
You know, with all due respect to the subject of the OPs message, I just can’t understand this.

I don’t immediately see how it differs from the following hypathetical scenario:

“A male friend of mine, who is married confessed to me that is attracted to other women”.

If we read this on these forums we would say something such as: “well whoopdi doo, he is no different then all other men on the planet. He simply has to learn to live with it.”.

How is this different? In other words, we simply cannot act on all of our attractions. If we did, total choas would insue (such as in Hollywood). We’d be divorced and remarried almost as often as we change our socks.

The less he ponders over it, the less he will think about it.
 
Arclight said:
Yeah, well, we’re talking about two kids (a friend and another who hasn’t actually done anything) and you’ve said that its either a case of Seduction or Recruitment. So, in light of that bizarre contention, the Orwellian clock struck 13 O’clock and the talk of a “cost/benefit analysis”, “extreme psychosexual pathology”, “apostasy”, and “making an end run around the Cross” isn’t something that I see anyone taking seriously. Its a parody of the Spanish Inquisition. Your complete lack of any compassion doesn’t help much either.
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The first grim reality is that only seduction or recruitment adequately explains such a disclosure. Your outrage does nothing to change this truth.

The second grim reality is that this same-sex attracted individual has done something. He has lusted in his heart after members of his own gender. This is a mortal sin that he must seek forgiveness for or face eternal damnation.

The third grim reality is that people who experience any degree of same-sex attraction are extremely sick, irrespective of whether they ever act on it physically. Such people tend to be bottomless pits of emotional need. Any Christian who seeks to fulfill that need, ignoring the fact that it is, by definition, impossible for them, sinfully presumes to take the place of Christ and endangers his own salvation.

The only rational conclusion to be drawn from this is that it is in the best interests both of the OP and her friend that their association with each other come to an end. To ignore these grim realities mentioned here in favor of your brand of counterfeit compassion is a perversion of that virtue which may well lead both to the gates of Hell.
 
Mijoy2 said:
You know, with all due respect to the subject of the OPs message, I just can’t understand this.

I don’t immediately see how it differs from the following hypathetical scenario:

“A male friend of mine, who is married confessed to me that is attracted to other women”.

If we read this on these forums we would say something such as: “well whoopdi doo, he is no different then all other men on the planet. He simply has to learn to live with it.”.

How is this different? In other words, we simply cannot act on all of our attractions. If we did, total choas would insue (such as in Hollywood). We’d be divorced and remarried almost as often as we change our socks.

The less he ponders over it, the less he will think about it.
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A married man experiencing sexual attraction to members of the opposite sex who are not his wife at least retains the proper conception of what his body was physically designed for. The man experiencing sexual attraction to members of the same sex does not. Therefore, any equivalence drawn between the two temptations is illegitimate on its face.
 
Other_Eric said:
The first grim reality is that only seduction or recruitment adequately explains such a disclosure. Your outrage does nothing to change this truth…
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I’m not outraged over your insistence that its either Seduction or Recruitment and nothing else. Its just funny enough to undercut anything else you opine.

Apart from your opinion, do you have any basis for this Seduction/Recruitment Grim Reality?
 
Arclight said:
I’m not outraged over your insistence that its either Seduction or Recruitment and nothing else. Its just funny enough to undercut anything else you opine.

Apart from your opinion, do you have any basis for this Seduction/Recruitment Grim Reality?
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As I have said, only recruitment or seduction adequately explain disclosures such as the one given to the OP. I am happy to entertain other motives should you be able to come up with any.
 
Other_Eric said:
As I have said, only recruitment or seduction adequately explain disclosures such as the one given to the OP. I am happy to entertain other motives should you be able to come up with any.
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Who are you trying to kid?
 
Arclight said:
Who are you trying to kid?
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As I have written, I am happy to entertain any other possible motives to explain disclosures such as the one the OP received, since I am unable to formulate any others that are satisfactory. I take your brief response to mean that you can’t either. As such, why do you assume that there exist any other rational motives beyond what your gut seems to be telling you?
 
Other_Eric said:
As I have written, I am happy to entertain any other possible motives to explain disclosures such as the one the OP received, since I am unable to formulate any others that are satisfactory. I take your brief response to mean that you can’t either. As such, why do you assume that there exist any other rational motives beyond what your gut seems to be telling you?
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Why are you asking me to verify how you understand comments on the thread. If it helps, yes it appears that you do take it that way. Aren’t you supposed to be a lawyer? Be specific in how you abuse language, please.
 
Arclight said:
Why are you asking me to verify how you understand comments on the thread. If it helps, yes it appears that you do take it that way. Aren’t you supposed to be a lawyer? Be specific in how you abuse language, please.
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I am not asking you to verify my understanding of anything. I am claiming I do not understand anything beyond the two motives I have mentioned here: seduction or recruitment. You claim there exist other motives and I am asking you for a third time to explain what those might be. I neither desire nor require any form of affirmation from you, just a response that substantiates the claims you are making. In the absence of such, I will assume that there are none and that, in spite of your objection to the idea, seduction and recruitment really are the only two explanations that account for the motive to “come out”.
 
Other_Eric said:
I am not asking you to verify my understanding of anything. I am claiming I do not understand anything beyond the two motives I have mentioned here: seduction or recruitment. You claim there exist other motives and I am asking you for a third time to explain what those might be. I neither desire nor require any form of affirmation from you, just a response that substantiates the claims you are making. In the absence of such, I will assume that there are none and that, in spite of your objection to the idea, seduction and recruitment really are the only two explanations that account for the motive to “come out”.
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You’re going to assume whatever you believe anyway, regardless of what anyone here writes. My audience is the lurking readers and their edification. That’s why I keep repeating the “seduction” and “recruiting” - only claim. Because it makes you look foolish.

Write clearly so I don’t have to guess at what you’re asking. All advocates, especially attorneys, know that.

In one of my first responses to you I suggested that the kid with the problem is looking for a friend to talk to, which is not an unheard of kind of social interaction and happens all the time among people who are not especially judgmental or lacking in compassion, which you will find surprising. In my vast experience with friendships, this is what friends do. None of this implies “recruiting”.

Saying “I have a problem with ‘x’” doesn’t imply an invitation to indulge in ‘x’. e.g., “I have a problem with alcohol” doesn’t doesn’t sound like an invitation to go bar hopping. “I have a problem with cats” isn’t masked request for the gift of a kitten.
 
Yeah I think the “seduction” and “recruiting” is completely over the top. As far as I can tell the OP is a young girl, so recruiting her to be a gay man seems unlikely and there wasn’t anything in her post that even sounded like, “Hey baby, I’m having thought about other men can you help rehabilitate me?” Odds are he was just reaching out for help with someone he feels comfortable enough not to belittle or mock him for this trial. Its also not like he said “I’m leading an actively gay lifestyle and I want you to support me and my boyfriend”.

In THIS case I think her she should support him in overcoming this (if its possible) and help him to seek out good counseling form places like courage (not your local GLBT “support” group). IF he started to act like he was leaving the church and living the gay lifestyle then you probably have a moral obligation to to have nothing to do with him, but unless that happens she should “walk with him”.
 
Arclight said:
You’re going to assume whatever you believe anyway, regardless of what anyone here writes. My audience is the lurking readers and their edification. That’s why I keep repeating the “seduction” and “recruiting” - only claim. Because it makes you look foolish.

Write clearly so I don’t have to guess at what you’re asking. All advocates, especially attorneys, know that.

In one of my first responses to you I suggested that the kid with the problem is looking for a friend to talk to, which is not an unheard of kind of social interaction and happens all the time among people who are not especially judgmental or lacking in compassion, which you will find surprising. In my vast experience with friendships, this is what friends do. None of this implies “recruiting”.

Saying “I have a problem with ‘x’” doesn’t imply an invitation to indulge in ‘x’. e.g., “I have a problem with alcohol” doesn’t doesn’t sound like an invitation to go bar hopping. “I have a problem with cats” isn’t masked request for the gift of a kitten.
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Let’s assume that your characterization of is correct and that a kid, such as the one that we are discussing in the present thread, comes out simply because he needs a friend to talk to. Well, talking to a friend is not an end in itself. It is the means to achieve an end. Therefore, that the kid wants a friend to talk to is not surprising, even for me.

The question is what end the kid hopes to achieve in talking to this friend. I think we can both agree that he means to achieve some form of emotional consolation relating to his problem with same-sex attraction. Here is the crux of the issue. Any emotional support he receives from his friend related to his same-sex attraction may be interpreted as a form of affirmation.

It’s likely that, in choosing a friend for this revelation, that it is the affirmation he was after, rather than any real form of help. When individuals have a genuine desire for help, they go to a professional to obtain it. That’s exactly not what this kid chose to do. Instead, he sought to abuse his friendship with the OP by burdening her with a struggle that justly belongs to him. He made no known disclosure to either a therapist or a priest. It is therefore reasonable to assume that it wasn’t help he was after, but the affirmation that friends are predisposed to provide.

That the kid “is looking for a friend to talk to” does nothing to mitigate the grim reality that it was affirmation, with the ultimate goal of recruitment that he was likely after. The OP ought to be aware of this and modify her behavior appropriately. I suggest dissociation.
 
KimiB said:
My friend from church, a boy my age, has confessed to me that he has been having thoughts about other men. He was very upset and wants to be rid of these thoughts. Is there anything I can do for him?

Kimi
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Kimi, you don’t indicate what age this boy is. most of my gay and lesbian friends knew from puberty onward that their orientation was not heterosexual. They are now calm, productive adults in stable relationships.

I don’t think there is anything you can do to “change” him. If he wants to try some aversion therapy or other, those options exist. Of course, if he is gay, he should not be hanging around with adult men any more than young heterosexual girls should be hanging around with adult men!
 
Other_Eric said:
Let’s assume that your characterization of is correct and that a kid, such as the one that we are discussing in the present thread, comes out simply because he needs a friend to talk to. Well, talking to a friend is not an end in itself. It is the means to achieve an end. Therefore, that the kid wants a friend to talk to is not surprising, even for me.

The question is what end the kid hopes to achieve in talking to this friend. I think we can both agree that he means to achieve some form of emotional consolation relating to his problem with same-sex attraction. Here is the crux of the issue. Any emotional support he receives from his friend related to his same-sex attraction may be interpreted as a form of affirmation.

It’s likely that, in choosing a friend for this revelation, that it is the affirmation he was after, rather than any real form of help. When individuals have a genuine desire for help, they go to a professional to obtain it. That’s exactly not what this kid chose to do. Instead, he sought to abuse his friendship with the OP by burdening her with a struggle that justly belongs to him. He made no known disclosure to either a therapist or a priest. It is therefore reasonable to assume that it wasn’t help he was after, but the affirmation that friends are predisposed to provide.

That the kid “is looking for a friend to talk to” does nothing to mitigate the grim reality that it was affirmation, with the ultimate goal of recruitment that he was likely after. The OP ought to be aware of this and modify her behavior appropriately. I suggest dissociation.
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All I have to do is posit a reasonable third alternative to (1) seduction and (2) recruitment and your argument fails, since it allows no alternative.

Teens with sexual problems and questions typically confide in their friends more than they do their parents, and far more often than they do professionals.

Talking to friends IS, commonly, an end in itself, if you’ve ever been called on to just listen to someone talk over a problem, you’d know this.

The friend possibly, or probably, wants emotional consolation. Not every response that isn’t hostile is approval. If the OP says, “yeah, that’s gotta be tough”, that’s not approving the conduct. Learning how to listen without blasting criticism or approving the conduct or even giving advice is a big part of how adults (and especially marital partners) deal with each other. Perhaps the OP intuitively understands this already. The OP already understands the need for compassion.

You could learn something here, boyo.
 
Other_Eric said:
A married man experiencing sexual attraction to members of the opposite sex who are not his wife at least retains the proper conception of what his body was physically designed for. The man experiencing sexual attraction to members of the same sex does not. Therefore, any equivalence drawn between the two temptations is illegitimate on its face.
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I completely fail to see how there is any difference at all. Temptation in not a sin. Acting on the temptation is.

My point was addressed towards the sympathy of such a temptation. I do not think that a married man would receive a great deal of sympathy if he were to write a post concerning his having to deal with his temptations directed towards other women. What I don’t understand is the sympathy put forth when one expresses his temptation for a person on the same sex. Both are equally sinful if acted upon. Both require inner strength and prayer to conquer.

Why does one receive sympathetic responses and the other a dope slap?

:confused:
 
StAnastasia said:
Kimi, you don’t indicate what age this boy is. most of my gay and lesbian friends knew from puberty onward that their orientation was not heterosexual. They are now calm, productive adults in stable relationships.

I don’t think there is anything you can do to “change” him. If he wants to try some aversion therapy or other, those options exist. Of course, if he is gay, he should not be hanging around with adult men any more than young heterosexual girls should be hanging around with adult men!
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I still stand by my original suggestion. Get him a date to the next dance. Or something.
 
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