My friend got permission from Rome to do Invitro?

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You know, my sister once confided in me that her pastor gave her permission to contracept.

I called him up and asked him if he really did that. He said that there was no way that he would ever do that.

I asked my sister in more detail what he said. She reported that she told him that she had used contraception in the past, and he said, “that’s understandable…”

I’m sure he was telling her that there was lots of confusion in our society. She interpreted it to mean she was allowed.

People hear what they want to hear sometimes.
Unfortunately, though, I have heard of pastors telling people that birth control is OK. Obviously, they have no authority to say that, and they’ll have to answer for leading people astray. But the Pope? I don’t think so!
 
Probably she misunderstood someone’s statement or she is lying. However, it NONE of your business to ask for documentation. You made your point clear, now leave it alone! Do you think that nagging her would do any good? If she decided that she wants to go through with IVF nothing will stop her but loving behaviors.
 
Probably she misunderstood someone’s statement or she is lying. However, it NONE of your business to ask for documentation. You made your point clear, now leave it alone! Do you think that nagging her would do any good? If she decided that she wants to go through with IVF nothing will stop her but loving behaviors.
Ummm, we’re talking about someone’s soul which is at stake here. Therefore, I think that asking for documentation would be a reasonable step to take if it saves this person’s soul. After all, would you want to be responsible (even if only partly responsible) for those extra embryos that just get discarded or frozen for possible future use? You may not think that you would be responsible or even partly responsible for this but you very well could be if you do not take all actions possible to ensure that this person does not commit the mortal sin of IVF. Personally, I’d hate to stand in front of the judgment seat of Christ after my death and have to answer for those extra souls who were discarded or frozen (what an inhumane thing to do to a person with a soul). I’m sorry but I must say that I staunchly disagree that asking for documentation is unreasonable. Souls are at stake here people! :eek:
 
Ummm, we’re talking about someone’s soul which is at stake here. Therefore, I think that asking for documentation would be a reasonable step to take if it saves this person’s soul. After all, would you want to be responsible (even if only partly responsible) for those extra embryos that just get discarded or frozen for possible future use? You may not think that you would be responsible or even partly responsible for this but you very well could be if you do not take all actions possible to ensure that this person does not commit the mortal sin of IVF. Personally, I’d hate to stand in front of the judgment seat of Christ after my death and have to answer for those extra souls who were discarded or frozen (what an inhumane thing to do to a person with a soul). I’m sorry but I must say that I staunchly disagree that asking for documentation is unreasonable. Souls are at stake here people! :eek:
I would encourage you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on what our duties are in terms of charitable education of our fellow human beings. You should also read what the CCC states about our duties and accountability when it comes to participation is sin.

Are you the one that 10 days ago posted “I have decided to be an independent fundamentalist Baptist” after leaving the Catholic Church because you want to be a liberal Christian.

Are you the one that one month ago posted within an hour the two statements?
1- “I have come home to Rome. I am now home to the Catholic Church. I am going to confession on or by Thursday.”
and then
2- "Well everyone, I changed my mind about going back to Catholicism. I have decided to stay a liberal Christian. 🙂 I am going to be doing a lot of research on liberal theology and stuff in the next few days and weeks. 🙂 "
That is blatant apostasy.

I encourage you to understand what the Catholic Church is about before nagging people for documentation that supports their behaviors. If you want to help the person is up to you to prove that you are correct.
 
My goodness, Cristiano, what an assumption to make!

There are at least two Hollies on this forum; I don’t know how many there are in the world. I have one in my family.

Slow up, dude.

Mote… beam…

God bless you,

Ruthie, whose eyes also need checking
 
My goodness, Cristiano, what an assumption to make!

There are at least two Hollies on this forum; I don’t know how many there are in the world. I have one in my family.

Slow up, dude.

Mote… beam…

God bless you,

Ruthie, whose eyes also need checking
I am not making any assumptions. I just linked to the her blog through the URL that she provided in her profile.
 
Holly3278:
just because I quoted your blog that does not put me in the right. I attacked you instead of discussing your point and that is something that only a stupid person would do, and because I acted in stupidity I apologize to you. I should have been more charitable, especially because your confusion about your beliefs does not take away from trying to do God’s will. I am sorry for such an attack.
 
I need clarification on something.

Did your friend say the permission was from “Rome” or from the “Pope”?

Getting permission personally from the pope or with his approval is highly unusual and the case would have to be highly unusual (I am speaking generally, not with regard to the matter at hand).

Getting permission or some other kind of response from “Rome” OTOH is not that uncommon. People, including laymen, write to different Vatican “dicasteries” and sometimes receive responses (other times the dicastery may assign the response to a consultant to the dicastery). We know that the Vatican dicasteries (Ecclesia Dei, the CDF, etc.) do this b/c some of these have been posted online. For ex. (this from Ecclesia Dei):

unavoce.org/articles/2003/perl-011803.htm

So it is definitely possible for someone to write to one of these and get some kind of response which would be from “Rome” though not from the pope.

Whether it is likely that the response would have been permission to do invitro is another story and one I wouldn’t comment on until I can receive clarification on:

What was meant by “invitro” as you put it?

If your friend was talking about IVF, then I would be astonished if permission were granted. If OTOH something different was discussed, some other process, then let me note that contrary to popular belief the church does permit some methods of artificial facilitation of the procreative process. There are many artificial methods that help a couple procreate. Some have been ruled clearly wrong; others clearly right; and others, are still being debated. The basic criterion that some like to use is this: does the method replace the natural process or merely assist the natural process? If it is the latter (for ex. obviously Viagra), then it can be licit; if it is the former, then it is illicit.

I am not an orthodox Catholic; the above is not my own view.
I thought no and not under any circumstance. I’m very upset that my friend just got pope consent that it is okay to have invitro done? I’m totally confused and very upset. What is going on with the Church? I know there are other ways such as gift but didnt know invitro was ok,
 
I’ve done some more research, and it appears that according to the Vatican, the teaching against IVF has not been found to be an infallible teaching or one which we must definitively assent to. It is however according to the Vatican one to which we must be docile to (have an attitude of submission or deference, knowing that church authority probably knows better and that the spirit is guiding it in a special way)

zenit.org/article-19058?l=english
Vatican news agency:
In “Ad tuendam fidem,” John Paul II identified three categories of doctrines which I have treated more fully in my written paper. An example of the highest degree of authoritative teaching – requiring the assent of theological faith by all the faithful – is “the doctrine on the grave immorality of direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being.” Examples of the second category of doctrines – teachings which are “necessary for faithfully keeping and expounding the deposit of faith” to which the faithful must give “firm and definitive assent” lest they fall out of full communion with the Church – are teachings on the illicitness of euthanasia, prostitution, fornication and presumably abortion. The third class are those teachings on faith and morals presented as true or at least sure, but not solemnly defined or definitively proposed by the magisterium, to which “religious submission of will and intellect” are required. Church teaching on IVF falls at least into this class.
So the church teaching on IVF is in this third class of “true or at least sure” teachings which are not to be given definitive assent but which are to be approached with “religious submission of will and intellect.”

As I mentioned previously, here now is the teaching I referred to on licit artificial means versus illicit
40.png
CDF:
Thus moral conscience “does not necessarily proscribe the use of certain artificial means destined solely either to the facilitating of the natural act or to ensuring that the natural act normally performed achieves its proper end”.(53) If the technical means facilitates the conjugal act or helps it to reach its natural objectives, it can be morally acceptable. If, on the other hand, the procedure were to replace the conjugal act, it is morally illicit.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19870222_respect-for-human-life_en.html

Now as I mentioned many, including bishops, say methods like GIFT and TOT are fine. (Google them and magisterium together or something) Many don’t know of these methods. They are NOT IVF. They are different. So I think if “Rome” gave permission, it must have been for one of these other methods, not for what is normally called IVF. The only way “Rome” could have done otherwise is if some reasoning based on probabilism or some alternate theory was used. That would square with it being particular to her case. We really don’t know much for sure unless we see what was actually told the person.
 
Okay I was in here a week ago asking why would the pope or Rome grant someone an IVF under certain Circumstances. I lost that thread so I’m posting a new one. Well, still concerns me that a priest and/or lay people are giving false information to a couple wanting confirmation. Perhaps I’m wrong but my faith tells me that invitro is not acceptable under no circumstance.
Needless to say, I confronted my friend with the fear that someone is not telling her the truth and she got really mad at me.
HELP!
 
Okay I was in here a week ago asking why would the pope or Rome grant someone an IVF under certain Circumstances. I lost that thread so I’m posting a new one. Well, still concerns me that a priest and/or lay people are giving false information to a couple wanting confirmation. My friend told me the pastor of the church asked this question to rome and got permission. Perhaps I’m wrong but my faith tells me that invitro is not acceptable under no circumstance. What next permission to use Birth control or getting an abortion? I know you can be forgiven of these sins but why grant permission.
Needless to say, I confronted my friend with the fear that someone is not telling her the truth and she got really mad at me. Please share with me any websites regarding this! I’m really prolife and already practice nfp, i’ve done napro creighton etc! so i have all of those website but I would like something from the pope!
HELP!
 
Okay I was in here a week ago asking why would the pope or Rome grant someone an IVF under certain Circumstances. I lost that thread so I’m posting a new one. Well, still concerns me that a priest and/or lay people are giving false information to a couple wanting confirmation. My friend told me the pastor of the church asked this question to rome and got permission.
]Since you have heard this second hand, there is no way to tell where the breakdown in communication has occured. Either your friend misunderstood, or the priest is telling her something that is 100% against Church teaching.
Perhaps I’m wrong but my faith tells me that invitro is not acceptable under no circumstance. What next permission to use Birth control or getting an abortion? I know you can be forgiven of these sins but why grant permission.
We already answered your questions last time you posted this.

The Church teaches this is not a morally permissable procedure and no one can “give permission” for such a procedure, including the Pope.
Needless to say, I confronted my friend with the fear that someone is not telling her the truth and she got really mad at me.
Of course she got mad at you. She wants to do this procedure that the Church teaches is not morally permissable.
Please share with me any websites regarding this!
Donum Vitae is the teaching of the Church on this topic. It was issued in 1987. It is reiterated in the Catechism:

2376 Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child’s right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses’ "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."166

2377 Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."167 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union . . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."168

2378 A child is not something owed to one, but is a gift. The “supreme gift of marriage” is a human person. A child may not be considered a piece of property, an idea to which an alleged “right to a child” would lead. In this area, only the child possesses genuine rights: the right “to be the fruit of the specific act of the conjugal love of his parents,” and "the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception."169
 
Okay I was in here a week ago asking why would the pope or Rome grant someone an IVF under certain Circumstances. I lost that thread so I’m posting a new one. Well, still concerns me that a priest and/or lay people are giving false information to a couple wanting confirmation. My friend told me the pastor of the church asked this question to rome and got permission. Perhaps I’m wrong but my faith tells me that invitro is not acceptable under no circumstance. What next permission to use Birth control or getting an abortion? I know you can be forgiven of these sins but why grant permission.
Needless to say, I confronted my friend with the fear that someone is not telling her the truth and she got really mad at me. Please share with me any websites regarding this! I’m really prolife and already practice nfp, i’ve done napro creighton etc! so i have all of those website but I would like something from the pope!
HELP!
First you have not posted the specifics, what reasons, what method, etc. There is a morally acceptable “IVF” like procedure available today.
 
First you have not posted the specifics, what reasons, what method, etc. There is a morally acceptable “IVF” like procedure available today.
Can you give specifics Br. Rich? I have studied moral and medical ethics a lot, tho admit I am not an expert and I have never heard of this procedure ever being morally acceptable.

Now that you have made such a statement please verify your sources that are upheld within Catholic teachings.
 
First you have not posted the specifics, what reasons, what method, etc. There is a morally acceptable “IVF” like procedure available today.
IVF is in vitro fertilization, meaning that conception occurs in a petri dish; this type of procreation is intrinsically evil and never moral. No similar procedure could possibly be moral.

cin.org/vatcong/donumvit.html
 
If it is true, she probably received a Papal dispensation from Rome. It is very rare to get one, though, Adolf Hitler’s parents received one because of they were closely related.

See: newadvent.org/cathen/05041a.htm
 
If it is true, she probably received a Papal dispensation from Rome. It is very rare to get one, though, Adolf Hitler’s parents received one because of they were closely related.

See: newadvent.org/cathen/05041a.htm
The laws of marriage are for the most part matters of discipline, and thus can often (thought not always) be dispensed fom

IVF, on the other hand, is a matter of faith and morals, not discipline. The wrongness of IVF is a matter of faith and morals. It is inherently wrong, not just wrong because it breaches a disciplinary rule.

You can no more be dispensed from the use of IVF than you can be dispensed from believing in Mary’s Assumption or any other point of faith and morals.
 
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