My friend!

[dessert]

This is an interesting thread as I think my dh is a bit on the gay side. I blame his dad as having beat him when he was little. And his uncle made fun of him and they both lost him out in the woods on purpose on a hunting trip. I think they were trying to make a man out of him, they should suffer but they don’t even realize what they did. My husband has a load of problems, I have had recently, counseling to learn how to cope and help with my own problems. I hope you can get some answers.

 

[Della]

I see nothing wrong with what Della said, “My point, which keeps getting obscured or lost is simply that when medicine fails us, we must rely on grace for that very reason.”

I too have many medical problems some of which are congenital and have threatened my life on more than a few occasions. I pray often for ease and have even received the anointing of oils in preparation for what I knew to be a serious operation from which I might not survive. But, being a catholic I believe in the grace of God who someday will explain to me hopefully why I needed to bear the pain and the suffering I have had to endure. And I also know that God gave man a brain to use as best as was possible and that means finding cures for ills and harms. We will be judged by our deeds and works so in that vein I firmly believe that our treatment of others will be the primary interest that God will consider when we face Him on judgement day.

What I assume Della means though when she talks about a ‘quick fix’ is what might be seen as something other than a rather reliable treatment for those who actually are intersex or transsexual. Bringing the body into accord with the brain is anything but a ‘quick fix’ as I know it. In those conditions the last thing that usually happens is a ‘quick fix’. Many who suffer from those inborn conditions go through very long periods of distress and pain before any ‘fix’ becomes available to them.

I might add that Pope Paul VI even told a Catholic California surgeon who joined me for lunch at a symposium that it was permissible for him to do surgeries if the surgery meant a healing of the body to be whole. Back then the church even allowed the amending of baptismal certificates for the post-op intersex and transsexuals.

With the advancement of research and science it will not be too long before the now indicative and quite startling findings of children being born with a hypothalamus brain sex in contradiction to genital sex will be accepted as being no different than correcting an infants malformed heart or even transplanting organs from a dead child and implanting into the body of another who would have died otherwise.

I do see also many who are rather gender confused latching onto a medical condition as if they too suffered the same. But that has nothing really to do with what a true transsexual or an intersex might be but instead must be treated with psychiatric support and the understanding of professionals, family and friends. To do otherwise is rather unchristian.

Lynn-D

Thank you, Lynn. By “quick fix” I was referring back to the OP’s friend self-medicating to try to fix his/her problem. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Lynn-D]

Lynn-D, can you please clarify what you mean with this statement?

“I do see also many who are rather gender confused latching onto a medical condition as if they too suffered the same.”

*What I mean is that many elements under the transgender label are confused with transsexualism and intersex and many who are neither latch onto a medical term such as transsexual or even intersex so as to hide the reality of what otherwise might be understood as a fetish behavior. In fact transgender is a term usually given credit as having been coined by a transvestite magazine publisher but although he did promote the term widely it had been adopted long before by Magnus Hirschfeld, a sexologist. *

Although transgender does sound as if connected to a medical analogy it really was simply a substitute for transvestism or gay
cross-dressing in an attempt to separate any relationship to those who at that time were very rare…the transsexuals.

*I truly feel that the term ‘gender identity disorder’ is not appropriate for transsexuals but instead is a rather apt term for those who are gender confused. And the beginning of the confusion is when many see transsexual as a sub-set of transgenderism when in fact the former is a defined medical *
*term *coined by Dr Harry Benjamin to describe what he saw as a biological condition and the latter a non-biological social construct that is rather ambiguous but somehow has become accepted as being the definition of many gender related conditions the majority of which seem to be linked to cross-dressing behavior.

Perhaps you might find see the distinction of how terms are applied at this link: hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/intersex/sexual_I_G_web.html

Hope that helps?

Lynn-D

 

[aspawloski4th]

I tried to commit suicide multiple times, twice in a manner not dissimilar than Barbara here, so this hits very close to home.

No amount of grace, no amount of prayer, no amount of hope and meditation ever made it any better. My suicide attempts were regular and methodical. The only way I was not-suicidal was to be drugged out of my mind so badly that I was not a functional member of society, I called it my ‘zombie-times’.

So, I said screw that, and dealt with it as the medical community suggests. I now no longer need any antidepressants, I finished two degrees and as soon as I recover fully from my meningitis, I will attempt to be a productive member of society again. How can something that has such a dramatic positive improvement on my life, with no damage to anyone else’s life, be a damnable solution?

Sounds good to me, but to some male not a state being, it’s a virtue I grew up that attitude. Glad I have to wherewith all to ignjore it.

 

[Newbie2]

People need support when they are hurting. And, I say this with all the gentleness in the world, that your friend should have sought help instead of self-medicating. Anyone trying to solve/come to terms with a serious affliction who self-medicates is asking for trouble. I’m so sorry your friend went that route. Sadly, it explains a lot.

What I do have a problem with is the idea that religious people, ipso facto, are guilty of hating people because they will not accept as normal transsexualism.

I wrote that counseling might help such persons deal with their condition, which means accepting the possibility that there may never be a cure.

I found some of my own thoughts in Della’s response here:

1. It’s a sad situation when someone feels distraught enough to take their own life; no hope, only despair. It’s tempting to think that this person, with the right therapist, might be alive and coping today.
2. I too get upset that some feel that “we” as religious are supposed to drop our religion and accept (in this case, trans-sexualism) whatever abnormal behavior we are challenged with. While the OP has been careful not to paint all religious with the same broad brush, thank you, outside this forum there are many who would directly blame religious “pressure to conform” for this persons as well as many homosexuals, etc. suicide.
3. I understand and fully agree with the notion that there are religious who fail to address the “separation of sinner and sin”, consequently failing to recognize the basic human dignity of every individual.
4. This may be an unpopular opinion: There seems to exist this notion, particularly in matters of sexual identity, that it is somehow “unfair” that any one individual is burdened with a sexual identity or orientation problem i.e. SSA, trans-sexual, and the variations thereof.

Let me note here that I’m not attempting to minimize the struggle that many of those afflicted go through…it must be very difficult, as a number see suicide, terrible as it is, as their only option out.

However, Della brought up a good point, which made me think: "accepting the possibility that there may never be a cure." Reading through the Psalms, they are full of lamentation and woe over perceived (mostly economic) injustices; the psalmist cries out to the Lord to respond and save them from their situation.

I think perhaps there are some similarities to gender-identity issues here. They are a cross and burden to bear, same as with a physical disability or a different sort of mental disability. That’s not to say it’s easy to bear; on the contrary, that’s what a cross is!

However, it seems to me that “accepting who you are” and in particular having oneself surgically altered is an “easy fix”, that is compared to perhaps bearing the cross which was placed on one’s shoulders.

Yes, easy for me to say, without walking a mile in their shoes. My point is that we all have crosses to bear, some very heavy, some light, and that our response to the load that we bear is perhaps the measure by which we’ll someday be judged by the Almighty.

I’m not suggesting “Oh, well, too bad for them, they’ll just have to grin and bear it”…but rather that figuring out how to cope with it i.e. “accepting the possibility that there may never be a cure.” is difficult but preferable in the eyes of the Lord to giving in to a sinful fix, such as suicide or living the lifestyle.

Not to mention that we without such disorders need to have compassion for the struggles and be ready and able to help however we can in coping.

 

[aspawloski4th]

While there may not be a cure perse to transsexualism. Lets understand in as basic terms as possbile how the transsexual feels. they feel they are a different gender from the sex of the body they are in so they feel when the live and the body they are in rather than whats inside they feel phoney and their inner soul is being surpressed from expression. the soul is in the wrong body is how they feel. Ill say it again I know about a 1/2 dozen transsexuals who did the transition and now function as humans much better for it. I prefer function over coping any day.

 

[aspawloski4th]

there has been metioned here the concept of carrying a cross. Even if I was transtioned and living how I feel inside there is a cross I bear for the rest of my life. Living with the fact I had a baby sister I never got see to before she died 2 hours afdter birth. Thats a cross I have to accept. transsuality has aspects that are fixable. or if it pleases some here that with adjustments one can cope. ie living the role one feels inside. when you dont have to pretend top be something you are not inside and just bepursef, its very liberating.

 

[Newbie2]

there has been metioned here the concept of carrying a cross. Even if I was transtioned and living how I feel inside there is a cross I bear for the rest of my life. Living with the fact I had a baby sister I never got see to before she died 2 hours afdter birth. Thats a cross I have to accept. transsuality has aspects that are fixable. or if it pleases some here that with adjustments one can cope. ie living the role one feels inside. when you dont have to pretend top be something you are not inside and just bepursef, its very liberating.

And that’s part of my point…liberating from what? Same, I suppose, as those who give in to other types of sin; homosexuality, masturbation, infidelity/adultry…don’t they feel “liberated” too?

Aspects, perhaps…but can having surgery, adopting the lifestyle of the opposite sex really take away that cross?

 

[pathia]

And that’s part of my point…liberating from what? Same, I suppose, as those who give in to other types of sin; homosexuality, masturbation, infidelity/adultry…don’t they feel “liberated” too?

Aspects, perhaps…but can having surgery, adopting the lifestyle of the opposite sex really take away that cross?

Adopting the lifestyle? I don’t necessarily know what that means. I never acted like a boy, they tried to force it upon, but it just didn’t work. There wasn’t anything to ‘adopt’ when I shifted to a female social role. When I was forced to be a man, it would take about 5seconds of watching or listening to me for someone to peg me as gay. Now no one even passes a second glance at me, I didn’t change anything about my mannerism, behavior, speech, gait etc. I stayed exactly the same, before it was incongruous, now it is in synch.

 

[Annn]

LynnD, no, it doesn’t clarify. My understanding of the terms is that people who are transgender have mismatched gender identity and sex, and that people who are transsexual are transgender people who have made the decision to transition in some way.

 

[Christy_Beth]

It’s kind of hard to believe that this thread has gone on this long. By this time, I’m usually lost in all the posts.

As far as being “cured,” I know that, this side of heaven, there won’t be one for me. God who cures all ills has left this with me to carry. Like Paul who prayed that the “thorn in the flesh” be removed, I have also prayed for the removal of my “thorn.” But it’s been years, so I have had to accept that God wants me to have it for some greater good that I can’t yet see.

Yes, I live on disability which, if I’m careful, will pay my bills with a bit left over. I live in low income housing and ride the bus (for $22 a month). My biggest downfall is shopping and mail order stuff. And now that I have a computer, add ink for the printer for that. But, like I said, if I’m careful I do ok.

I know that, as things are, I’ll never be able to have a job. I stay to myself alot because I get so easily stressed being around people. Even when alone, my thoughts sometimes get away from me. Suddenly my thoughts are like those of a hamster on an exercise wheel. It’s bogey, bogey, bogey faster and faster while going no where at all. Some days I just want to scream.

 

[Lynn-D]

LynnD, no, it doesn’t clarify. My understanding of the terms is that people who are transgender have mismatched gender identity and sex, and that people who are transsexual are transgender people who have made the decision to transition in some way.

I find it rather confusing to link those who might be one or more of the transgender elements with those that are transsexual and/or intersex. This might best explain:
TRANSGENDER,(TG): A term promoted by Charles ‘Virginia’ Prince, a married transvestite/cd and publisher of the magazine ‘Transvestia’. Although a transvestite who lived as a woman with his wife he did not have a good opinion of transsexuals and thought their goal to change sex was delusional. He advocated the term transgender that has become an umbrella term for many gender or sexual variants and/or fetishists such as transvestites, she-males, gay cross-dressers, drag-queens, etc. and many transsexuals oppose the term being linked to them.
TRANSSEXUAL, (TS): A person with a very strong and persistent need to anatomically undergo sex reassignment surgery so as to meld their body with their accepted inborn mental gender and eliminate the incongruity. Some claiming to be transsexual are obviously not as reflected in the fluid statistics that estimate that only ten persons in one hundred claiming to have the questionable gender identity disorder actually might be transsexuals and of those approximately one in ten actually have sex reassignment.

May I be allowed to direct you to the link previously submitted explaining ‘Sex and Gender are different’. And in addition you might wish to access a website that has much info on it as well as links to the research showing the total contradiction between transgender and transsexual: harrybenjaminsyndrome.org./

Transsexualism has for quite some time been recognised as a distinct medical biological condition whereas transgender is a joining of behavioral elements that is simply a social construct without clear definition. Transgender has wrongly been applied as an umbrella term to mix and match conditions to which it never was originally intended to apply. Perhaps you might also like to read the BSTc research studies to be found on the above link as well as other research and explanations.

Lynn-D

 

[dessert]

*“I do see also many who are rather gender confused latching onto a medical condition *as if they too suffered the same.”

*What I mean is that many elements under the transgender label are confused with transsexualism *and intersex and many who are neither latch onto a medical term such as transsexual or even intersex so as to hide the reality of what otherwise might be understood as a fetish behavior. In fact transgender is a term usually given credit as having been coined by a transvestite magazine publisher but although he did promote the term widely it had been adopted long before by Magnus Hirschfeld, a sexologist.

*Although transgender does *sound as if connected to a medical analogy it really was simply a substitute for transvestism or gay
*cross-dressing in an attempt to separate any relationship to those who at that time were very rare…*the transsexuals.

*I truly feel that the term ‘gender identity disorder’ is not appropriate for transsexuals but instead is a *rather apt term for those who are gender confused. And the beginning of the confusion is when many see transsexual as a sub-set of transgenderism when in fact the former is a defined medical
*term **coined by Dr Harry Benjamin to describe what he saw as a biological condition and the latter a non-biological social construct that is rather ambiguous but somehow has become *accepted as being the definition of many gender related conditions the majority of which seem to be linked to cross-dressing behavior.

Perhaps you might find see the distinction of how terms are applied at this link: hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/intersex/sexual_I_G_web.html

Hope that helps?

Lynn-D

Your article points out a lot about how children are influenced by their parents, nurturing.
I am a girl and yes my name is Barb, I was brought up with 3 brothers and I became sort of a tom boy but my mother was careful to allow and make sure I had experiences with my girl cousins and when i learned about boys with the "different " body parts I learned we were different. I didn’t have the attitude oh I 'm stuck being a girl it was just well that is what I am.

 

[dessert]

Adopting the lifestyle? I don’t necessarily know what that means. I never acted like a boy, they tried to force it upon, but it just didn’t work. There wasn’t anything to ‘adopt’ when I shifted to a female social role. When I was forced to be a man, it would take about 5seconds of watching or listening to me for someone to peg me as gay. Now no one even passes a second glance at me, I didn’t change anything about my mannerism, behavior, speech, gait etc. I stayed exactly the same, before it was incongruous, now it is in synch.

I think you grew up with the wrong concepts of what it is really like to be a man. More than likely the John Wayne concepts. Right?

 

[pathia]

I think you grew up with the wrong concepts of what it is really like to be a man. More than likely the John Wayne concepts. Right?

No, my father was a soft-spoken quiet man who never really got angry, hardly john wayne. I don’t think he ever once raised his voice in anger around me. What does a ‘john wayne’ man even do? I don’t know, he is before my time really.

I didn’t act like a little boy either, keep in mind my behavior was atypical before I could even SPEAK. It wasn’t something I was taught, I don’t have memories of when I wasn’t the way I am.

They tried very hard to get me interested in outside play, sports, but I just wanted to play make believe with dolls and mess about with mom’s clothing and makeup when I was little. I hated playing with other boys, they were mean and insulted and beat me up from the very beginnings of my memories for being ‘a girl’. So, instead I just played with the girls.

 

[Dale_M]

N2, thank you for the considerate tone of your messages. I am glad you added your thoughts to the conversation.

I think perhaps there are some similarities to gender-identity issues here. They are a cross and burden to bear, same as with a physical disability or a different sort of mental disability. That’s not to say it’s easy to bear; on the contrary, that’s what a cross is!

However, it seems to me that “accepting who you are” and in particular having oneself surgically altered is an “easy fix”, that is compared to perhaps bearing the cross which was placed on one’s shoulders.

Yes, easy for me to say, without walking a mile in their shoes. My point is that we all have crosses to bear, some very heavy, some light, and that our response to the load that we bear is perhaps the measure by which we’ll someday be judged by the Almighty.

I think your concern is well considered, but I don’t totally agree with your conclusion. Yes, we all do have crosses to bear. And yes, we will be accountable to how we have shouldered our burden. But I don’t think this means we should suffer unnecessarily. If a medical treatment is available to treat a disorder, one which will alleviate much (but not all) of the pain, why not take advantage of it?

And that’s part of my point…liberating from what? Same, I suppose, as those who give in to other types of sin; homosexuality, masturbation, infidelity/adultry…don’t they feel “liberated” too?

I guess I don’t see transsexualism as a sin.

Aspects, perhaps…but can having surgery, adopting the lifestyle of the opposite sex really take away that cross?

I don’t think it will take away the cross. But I do think that it can greatly alleviate the pain.

 

[dessert]

No, my father was a soft-spoken quiet man who never really got angry, hardly john wayne. I don’t think he ever once raised his voice in anger around me. What does a ‘john wayne’ man even do? I don’t know, he is before my time really.

I didn’t act like a little boy either, keep in mind my behavior was atypical before I could even SPEAK. It wasn’t something I was taught, I don’t have memories of when I wasn’t the way I am.

They tried very hard to get me interested in outside play, sports, but I just wanted to play make believe with dolls and mess about with mom’s clothing and makeup when I was little. I hated playing with other boys, they were mean and insulted and beat me up from the very beginnings of my memories for being ‘a girl’. So, instead I just played with the girls.

I can’t believe that at 8 years old you knew you wanted to be a girl, from another post you wrote. No one at that young an age knows what they want. You just liked playing with girls because they seemed kinder to you as you probably didn’t have that many patient kind gentle men in your life. Yes others forced you into that what you didn’t want so that made you even more stubborn. Right? If they had forced you into being an artist you would have balked at that. They didn’t beat you up for being a girl like, they were just mean, you could have had crooked teeth same same, they would have picked on you. You are blaming yourself which you shouldn’t do. Suicide is not an escape it is murder of oneself, if you needed an escape but no one cared enough to offer you any alternative. I hope you are doing better, now.

 

[Mirdath]

I can’t believe that at 8 years old you knew you wanted to be a girl, from another post you wrote. No one at that young an age knows what they want.

What, when you were eight you didn’t look forward to growing up and being just like mommy or an older sister or anything like that? I have no trouble believing eight or earlier, though the onset of adolescence seems to be where it really hits home most often – a double helping of ‘oh no, what’s happening to me?!’.

You just liked playing with girls because they seemed kinder to you as you probably didn’t have that many patient kind gentle men in your life. Yes others forced you into that what you didn’t want so that made you even more stubborn. Right?

If you want to play that way, might I suggest picking on someone who doesn’t have the chromosome tests to prove it? Keep trying that angle with pathia and she will mop the floor with you.

 

[Christy_Beth]

Growing up, I hated being a girl. My older brother seemed to get away with everything. In fact, there were a couple of times he managed to get me in trouble over*** his*** failure to do something. And, yes, my parents expected me to be the little darling playing with her dolls. When my younger brother was born I was 9. I had no interest in helping take care of him. But because I was the girl, I had no say in the matter.

And in school, it was a given that I would take home ec classes. Something that neither of my brothers would do. In fact, if one of them had tried to take a class, my dad would have had caniption fits over it. I was made to feel like a failure because I couldn’t be the “little girl” they wanted me to do.

Oh, just a little aside on the home ec part. In 7th grade, when I first took home ec, my parents decided that I would be totally responsible for one meal a week. Of course, they would buy the ingredients, but I had to decide on the menu and getting it cooked on time. One time I decided to make London broil. Well, the recipe said cook one hour. So I did. Which, I think you would probably would know, the meat came out on the rare side. My mom had a fit and snapped, “We eat our meat cooked around here!!”

 

[Lynn-D]

It seems that many feel that being a transsexual or even intersex is a ‘choice’. Nothing could be further from the truth as evidenced by the research that has been done and continues to deal with this issue.

Transgender people I do agree choose or may have been nurtured into a behavioral pattern but that is simply what that is if you consider that most of those under the transgender banner are: heterosexual transvestites, drag-queens, she-males, gay cross-dressers, etc. They are behavioral and not biological. They would, unless extending their behavior to the extreme, never even entertain having surgery to change or correct their sex.

It is cruel to place a transsexual or intersex under the same label as those elements of behavior as mentioned above. It is not only cruel but ignorant.

Coincidentally this just came in on my ‘Medical Alert’ and might give some reason to rethink their position. Please note that the study deals with transsexuals and not transgender, two separate and distinct anomalies as I have shown before. Also note that this research is in support of previous research to which I supplied links.

Lynn-D

A GENE variant has been identified that appears to be associated with female-to-male transsexuality - the feeling some women have that they belong to the opposite sex.
newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19926674.500-gene-variant-more-prevalent-in-transsexuals.html?feedId=being-human_rss20
While such complex behaviour is likely the result of multiple genes, environmental and cultural factors, the researchers say the discovery suggests that transsexuality does have a genetic component.
The variation is in the gene for an enzyme called cytochrome P17, which is involved in the metabolism of sex hormones. Its presence leads to higher than average tissue concentrations of male and female sex hormones, which may in turn influence early brain development. Clemens Tempfer and his colleagues at the Medical University of Vienna in Austria discovered the variant after analysing DNA samples from 49 female-to-male (FtM) and 102 male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals, as well as 1669 non-transsexual controls.
The variant was more common in men than women, although it doesn’t seem implicated …
The complete article is 388 words long.