J
John_Henry
Guest
You ask them where it says that in their bible. It sure as heck ain’t in ours.
My friends I need help no more then ever, I'm going into my first debate conversation
- Status
V
VociMike
Guest
I would never agree to such an arrangement.
But I would offer this one piece of advice. Turn their challenges around. Make them prove that e.g. the early Church believed in Sola Scriptura. Make them prove that for 1500 years the Deuterocanonical writings were not accepted as Scripture.
One more thing, it’s not Protestantism against Catholicism, it’s much more a case of Protestantism against the entire rest of Christianity, Catholicism and Orthodoxy. When they start attacking the Catholic Church on a particular belief, ask them why the Orthodox believe the same thing (just be sure you know those few areas where Catholicism and Orthodoxy differ). Emphasize that their beliefs go against the entire rest of the Christian faith, a faith that has been in place for 2000 years.
D
deb1
Guest
I think that there are protestants who are so eager to prove that they are right that they engage in very rude behavior. Ganging up on you in the car while you were doing them a favor is the epitome of rudeness. Reading your last post that six or seven will be against you, it sounds like this is a preplanned attack. Poor guy, I think that you are in an unenviable situation. I will be praying for you. Please tell us how it went. I have found that when others stoop to such underhanded tactics, it hasn’t weakened my faith but stregthened it.
V
Valtiel
Guest
The reason I said seven was because I thought the the rest of the neighboors would get into it, fortunetly it was kept between the three because three of those other four are so versed in bible theology and such that I would have been sunk with what limited time I had to study, and even then only one would show up and then pormptly had to leave to go some where…
No it wasn’t pre-planned, if they hadn’t found my catholic answer bible they never would have started…
But I day say some pretty foolich things out nervousness…
Opponent: “catholicism started in europe”
Me: “no it started in rome”
I was way too nervous, I said some pretty stupid things, but over all I got my brother and his friend that the duterocannon was originally in hebrew, that the catholic church put the bible together and that the duterocannon has always been in the bible until 500 years ago…
But their going to their teacher (where they got most of their complaints and ideas to begin with) for back up, it’s not over by a long shot…
A
antiaphrodite
Guest
well, we’ll continue to pray for you, then
.
.
L
Lorarose
Guest
Regarding your questions concerning the books of the bible…
The link already provided to scripturecatholic.com deals with that topic pretty well.
When the topic swings to Mary, I have found that protestants don’t have much of a response to the role that the queen mother played in the Davidic kingdoms (starting with Bathsheeba)
The queen mother had a throne to the right of the king.
Jesus is a davidic king. His mother is the queen.
When it swings to the saints…ask them to provide scriptural evidence that souls in heaven are incapable of praying for those on earth. Ask them to show you through scripture that souls in heaven are not aware of earthly events…(or are “sleeping” as some of them seem to believe)
We see the “dead” Moses very much alive in the New Testament.
We also see heavenly souls in revelation praying to God concerning earthly events (the martyrs request justice for those who murdered them) There is also a description in revelation of the prayers of the “holy ones” (another term for “saints”) going up before God like incense.
It is highly unlikely anyone will “convert” the other in one conversation.
However…an effective approach on your part would be perhaps…
“here is what YOU THINK the Church teaches, and here is what the Church ACTUALLY DOES teach…”
If you can place some doubt in their minds of what their misconceptions are of the Church…they may be inspired to then go and research the issues themselves.
The link already provided to scripturecatholic.com deals with that topic pretty well.
When the topic swings to Mary, I have found that protestants don’t have much of a response to the role that the queen mother played in the Davidic kingdoms (starting with Bathsheeba)
The queen mother had a throne to the right of the king.
Jesus is a davidic king. His mother is the queen.
When it swings to the saints…ask them to provide scriptural evidence that souls in heaven are incapable of praying for those on earth. Ask them to show you through scripture that souls in heaven are not aware of earthly events…(or are “sleeping” as some of them seem to believe)
We see the “dead” Moses very much alive in the New Testament.
We also see heavenly souls in revelation praying to God concerning earthly events (the martyrs request justice for those who murdered them) There is also a description in revelation of the prayers of the “holy ones” (another term for “saints”) going up before God like incense.
It is highly unlikely anyone will “convert” the other in one conversation.
However…an effective approach on your part would be perhaps…
“here is what YOU THINK the Church teaches, and here is what the Church ACTUALLY DOES teach…”
If you can place some doubt in their minds of what their misconceptions are of the Church…they may be inspired to then go and research the issues themselves.
A
awfulthings9
Guest
Valtiel,
As I’ve read apologetics material and worked my way through the Bible, I’ve kept a catagorized list of verses that correspond to distinctly Catholic beliefs. I’d be happy to send this to you. Drop me an e-mail at spencerallen@midamerica.net and I’ll respond with the attachment (and a few others you’ll find usefull). The best approach to take is to focus on sola-scriptura - read all the Catholic.com tracts on the Bible as you can. Don’t get into an argument about doctrine because they’ll ambush you (not because their beliefs are correct, but their behavior in the car and the fact that they outnumber you demonstrate it). Make a general rule of no changing subjects and refuse to address any objection until they give you a satisfactory answer for sola-scriptura and Biblical inspiration from a Prot. viewpoint.
As I’ve read apologetics material and worked my way through the Bible, I’ve kept a catagorized list of verses that correspond to distinctly Catholic beliefs. I’d be happy to send this to you. Drop me an e-mail at spencerallen@midamerica.net and I’ll respond with the attachment (and a few others you’ll find usefull). The best approach to take is to focus on sola-scriptura - read all the Catholic.com tracts on the Bible as you can. Don’t get into an argument about doctrine because they’ll ambush you (not because their beliefs are correct, but their behavior in the car and the fact that they outnumber you demonstrate it). Make a general rule of no changing subjects and refuse to address any objection until they give you a satisfactory answer for sola-scriptura and Biblical inspiration from a Prot. viewpoint.
S
slinky1882
Guest
Hey, it sounds as though you tried your best, and everyone makes mistakes. But, I am sure the dialouge only served to hone your skills for the next time. I did have a question though, weren’t some of the Deuterocanonical written originally in Greek or Aramaic??? I know they were all included in the Septuagint wriiten in Greek, but I thought that was part of the School of Jamnia’s decision related to Books written in Hebrew??? Thanks and God Bless.
M
MonicaC
Guest
hello,
I hope I can still help. I am just going to start typing without reading through all of the other post so I hope I am not repeating. I was listining to Catholic Answers the other day and they were talking about sola scripture. THe point I thought was interesting was that the Bible was not written until about 200 years after Jesus. So the point is were did the church get its authority? The answer is the obvious, from tradition. The Church started from the Tradition that our Lord started. Jesus sayed build my church, That is His one true church not the 2000+ churches that Martin Luther started.
Any way I really liked that agruement and I think I will be using that one.
Good luck.
I hope I can still help. I am just going to start typing without reading through all of the other post so I hope I am not repeating. I was listining to Catholic Answers the other day and they were talking about sola scripture. THe point I thought was interesting was that the Bible was not written until about 200 years after Jesus. So the point is were did the church get its authority? The answer is the obvious, from tradition. The Church started from the Tradition that our Lord started. Jesus sayed build my church, That is His one true church not the 2000+ churches that Martin Luther started.
Any way I really liked that agruement and I think I will be using that one.
Good luck.
T
TZiggy
Guest
I sell for a living:
I never “sell” something to someone who doesn’t have a need. The best I can do is provide as much good information as I can and allow my prospects to make a “buy” or “no buy” decision based on their needs.
The worst way to approach the situation you described is as if it were a debate where one side wins and one loses. BOTH sides have a “need”… the Good News of Jesus Christ!
You need to make sure your discussion is framed in the context of exploration among believers seeking TRUTH!
I agree with a post above:
Gods Peace
TZiggy
I never “sell” something to someone who doesn’t have a need. The best I can do is provide as much good information as I can and allow my prospects to make a “buy” or “no buy” decision based on their needs.
The worst way to approach the situation you described is as if it were a debate where one side wins and one loses. BOTH sides have a “need”… the Good News of Jesus Christ!
You need to make sure your discussion is framed in the context of exploration among believers seeking TRUTH!
I agree with a post above:
- Take one topic at a time
- Keep the focus on “truth” no matter what the topic
- don’t allow the topic to stray
Gods Peace
TZiggy
A
Axion
Guest
It would be good to have a Catholic friend with you next time, to give you moral support and back you up, even if they’re not an expert.
Another little gem. If the topic goes on to works, read them Matthew 25, verse 31 to the end.
Another couple of deadly bible passages:
The Assumption: Revelation 12.
The Rapture: Matthew 24 4-31. This description of end times leaves no room for a rapture. jesus will return only once - in glory.
S
scylla
Guest
If you don’t know invite them to look into it with you. You can then get them to read a Scott Hahn book, or listen to a John Martignoni tape\Cd.
Remember the truth is on your side so if you don’t know, don’t wing it! Just say I don’t know. You can always find out, there is an answer for every sincere question, that is the beauty of the Catholic Church.
biblechristiansociety.com/2min_apologetics.asp?id=12
Here are some quickie apologetics answers.
God Bless
Scylla
Remember the truth is on your side so if you don’t know, don’t wing it! Just say I don’t know. You can always find out, there is an answer for every sincere question, that is the beauty of the Catholic Church.
biblechristiansociety.com/2min_apologetics.asp?id=12
Here are some quickie apologetics answers.
God Bless
Scylla
C
CARose
Guest
You know, the best advice I can offer, in addition (or in contrast) to that given above is, stay light, don’t try to win the argument just try to shed some light on the subject.
Remember, the conversion is done by the Holy Spirit. If you pray before, during and after the conversation, you could even have fun with this, even with the odds stacked against you.
Do not go in expecting them to come away awed at your incredible ability to speak the truth.
Don’t get upset if they “Break the rules” and start jumping topics.
I know it goes against what we’re taught works, but in the first conversation I ever found myself in where I was responding tit for tat with scriptural references, the person I was talking to was going all over the place with the topics. Each time I made a good point, a new topic was pulled out. And with each, I (through the grace of the Holy Spirit, for I was completely clueless without His guidance) I had the perfect retort. I enjoyed the opportunity to defend the Catholic Faith, but I didn’t get to worked up that this person to whom I was talking didn’t seem to buy into what I was selling. He was respectful, he was confused to meet a Catholic who knew scripture, but I don’t know if he ever fully bought it.
And yet, I continue to pray that I planted seeds which have begun to germinate and may even come to full fruition.
God bless you in your efforts. And don’t forget to pray. It just might be a whole lot of fun. I know I enjoyed myself and was floating for quite a while afterwards.
CARose
Remember, the conversion is done by the Holy Spirit. If you pray before, during and after the conversation, you could even have fun with this, even with the odds stacked against you.
Do not go in expecting them to come away awed at your incredible ability to speak the truth.
Don’t get upset if they “Break the rules” and start jumping topics.
I know it goes against what we’re taught works, but in the first conversation I ever found myself in where I was responding tit for tat with scriptural references, the person I was talking to was going all over the place with the topics. Each time I made a good point, a new topic was pulled out. And with each, I (through the grace of the Holy Spirit, for I was completely clueless without His guidance) I had the perfect retort. I enjoyed the opportunity to defend the Catholic Faith, but I didn’t get to worked up that this person to whom I was talking didn’t seem to buy into what I was selling. He was respectful, he was confused to meet a Catholic who knew scripture, but I don’t know if he ever fully bought it.
And yet, I continue to pray that I planted seeds which have begun to germinate and may even come to full fruition.
God bless you in your efforts. And don’t forget to pray. It just might be a whole lot of fun. I know I enjoyed myself and was floating for quite a while afterwards.
CARose
M
Malachi4U
Guest
Valtiel said:
Where is this in Scripture? Where does Jesus command it? It is a man made invention and so challange your Protestant brothers to prove it in Scripture, they can’t. The proof is on them, not you.
The Bible had 73 books for 1,000 years before Luther plucked out a few. Why 66 books? Make them prove to you why Luther was right. Where did Jesus say to write a Bible? Where does Jesus say to read the Bible? Where does Jesus say how many books are in the Bible?
Who has the authority to write a Bible? A homosexual king like James? Bill Clinton? Zondervan Press? Hitler? Luther? The Church Christ founded? Joseph Smith (Mormon)? The Watchtower (Jehova Witness)? Jews? Budists? Publishers?
By the way, in 90 A.D. the some Jews deleted out several books in their Scripture but not all of them. They were not Christian since Jesus founded the Catholic Church on Pentecost in 33 A.D… So should Christians allow and follow non-Christians when they write our Scripture? Silly 66 book users.:whacky: I follow the complete 73 books as given to us by CHRISTIANS not the 66 abridged and edited books given to us by non-Christians and anyone with a whim or fancy to wirte one.
Start with Jesus and work foward and make them prove their theology from day one to the present. Don’t let them work backwards to justify their opinions. Catholics can go in Chronological order to prove our Dogma today. Protestants have to work backwards to attempt to justify theirs.
Ask them if their ancestors were Christian 700 years ago what church/denomination/sect they belonged to? If Christian they were Catholic! (Catholic includes the Eastern Rite too don’t forget! There is no such thing as the ‘ROMAN’ Catholic Church, just a Roman diocese in Italy.)
Whoa! Where to start! Which version of the Protestant Bible! The JW one? The Mormon one? The NIV? The AKJV? The Luther Bible (He tried to delete 11+ books you know, others put some back in)? Who gave Zondervan Press or any secular press the authority to write a Bible?
Books of the Deuteros have been found in HEBREW that existed before Blessed Mary gave Birth to Jesus. They discovered them in Israel in either the 1940’s or 60’s in the Dead Sea Scrolls or some other site. I don’t recall the dates or names just that they do in fact exist today!
Good luck it takes time to learn how to counter the skillfull lies put out by the anti-Catholics.
M
Malachi4U
Guest
First, why are going up against 3 of them and only one of you? Are they scared of the truth or do they just HUNT Catholics in packs? Find some friends to go with you. Ask your preist to go too!
Try to set up an agenda for each session with them. Stay on topic and don’t let them drift away from it. Keep to one or two topics. This way you can study up before you meet them and won’t get flustered with a question like why do Catholics deny Lilith was the first wife of Adam and not Eve! (Yea, I heard that one from a Baptist!)
Here are some good debating techniques too:
Answer a question with a question. You never have to state your point but they must scramble to prove theirs. (Watch a Mel Brooks movie to learn how)
If you don’t know something don’t answer a question about it. Write down the question and tell them you’ll get back to them with an answer.
Don’t let them monopolize the conversation, you should have equal time.
Make them prove each point they make with Scripture. Then read the Scripture verses before and after their proof to make sure it’s in context. They often take Scripture out of context. In context their points are wrong. Scripture was written without punctuation Chapters or verses! They were added later and may have helped to confuse Protestants who take Scripture out of context. Scripture was written to read one book from beginning to end without pause and all in context. Try it someday and you’ll see Scripture come alive like you never saw it before!
Never admit they are right untill you have time to go home and research what they say and study ALL the Scripture and history. For example, one Scripture verse they may quote says that we are not saved by works! This proves Catholics are wrong they will claim? Read the next verse which they leave off and it indicates the works talked about are the works of the law! Catholics agree with both verses in context! (See Eph 2:8-10)
No Catholic Faith and Moral conflicts with Scripture! They will claim it does but Jesus has seen to it that it doesn’t!
Jesus does not change, why do their Faith and Morals change with the wind?
Get some good Catholic concordances that will give you quick reference to Catholic Scripture verses to support you position. I have bookmarks I made with them. I might e-mail them to you if you want and I can find the file?
Read and re-read Scripture over and over. You should read the NT 4 times before you even think about meeting with those guys. Read the footnotes in a good Catholic study Bible too as you read each time. Make notes on topics like Baptism, Marriage, works, faith alone, etc…
Read the books by all the Protestant clergy that came home to Rome!
Read the conversion stories or watch the TV programs on the Journey Home Network about Protestants that came home to the Catholic Church.
Go to the anti-Catholic biggot web sites and study what they say and how to prove them wrong! (chick.com or mtc.org or bible.ca or jcsm.org or jesus-is-lord.com or etc.)
Bring SOMEONE else with you! Did I say that allready?
God is on your side, remmember that allways. He will be with you. These guys may have practiced debating so they may be good at it. You need to learn sometime so why not now? You will get better with practice. So practice often.
Let us know what sect/denomination these guys are so we can give you questions to ask them! Like who founded their sect and in what year!
So much more to help you too. Where do you live? I might even drive over to help if you’re close? Perhaps someone else here might too? We are all one family you know and brothers of Christ (not siblings).
The most important thing? Pray, pray,pray! Pray one or two hours for each hour you evangelize them. God loves prayer and nobody does it better, longer or more in depth then Catholics (well, some of us anyway
).Show your light to them. Let them see your Faith. Talk to them about your Faith and how deep a love you have for Jesus. Tell them how your Faith in Jesus guides you every day in your life. Tell them all the wonderfull things your Faith has done for you.
Good luck, I’ll pray to Blessed Mary, St. Stephen, and some other for you - and your Protestant counterparts.
PS, Catholics and Prots don’t use the same words the same way either. Learn the differences! Words like Pray, Adore, Venerate, Worship, Baptize, God, Trinity, Works, salvation, saved, hope, etc. mean one thing to a Catholic and something else to a Protestant.
M
Malachi4U
Guest
Boy, that last post fit!
M
mercygate
Guest
Yo, Val! I can’t help thinking you’re probably in a little over your head – but God puts us where we ARE, so I guess you have to do whatcha gotta do. Before you get back with these guys, how about spending an hour every day with the Blessed Sacrament?
L
Lillith
Guest
Just my two cents…
Ask questions to them. If you must make that a rule (you ask, then I ask) ex…You are saved by faith alone? Where does it say that in the Bible? So you don’t have to love or forgive?
Play dumb…they’ll be less likely to pound you
Good luck
Ask questions to them. If you must make that a rule (you ask, then I ask) ex…You are saved by faith alone? Where does it say that in the Bible? So you don’t have to love or forgive?
Play dumb…they’ll be less likely to pound you
Good luck
M
Malachi4U
Guest
AMEN!
What a great idea!
M
Malachi4U
Guest
Valtiel,
- Take a friend with you.
- Go to some Catholic web sites and read what they have to say on major topics.
catholicapologetics.org/
catscans.com/catholicsite/ - Go here and learn from what it says:
members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/bibletruth.html - Try these sites too:
users.binary.net/polycarp/
catholic.com/library/practical_apologetics.asp - Make them learn Bible history.
users.rcn.com/lanat/biblehistory.htm
geocities.com/militantis/biblechp16.html - Cheat sheets to take with you:
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WALLET.HTM
home.flash.net/~truth/Cathrefsheet.html - Don’t let them do this to you:
cin.org/users/james/files/howtodis.htm - Great site to find other great sites:
catholicculture.org/search/resultslist.cfm?resourcetype=2&requesttype=sitebrowsecat&catid=90&catlabel=Apologetics - Make them answer your questions before moving on. You start by asking them questions too.
- Bring a pen and paper. Never answer a question if you don’t know the answer. Make a note and get back to them on it.
- Don’t take thier word on the meaning of Bible verses. Research the verses and context then get back to them.
- Find some of the other threads here that talk about Baptists. We have some good threads here that talk about errors in Baptist opinions (theology).
- Status