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stjosephtomasi
Guest
I’ve never seen a great explanation of Jesus’ words on the cross. Yes, I understand that He was quoting an OT psalm. But did He really believe God had abandoned Him? Surely not, right?
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NHInsider
Guest
I believe that when Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself, he was in fact separated from God, who is all-holy. I think that was the worst of all the sufferings He bore, as it is the curse of hell, the punishment for sin, to be separated from God.
I don’t know if there is an official Church teaching on this, but it is logical.
I don’t know if there is an official Church teaching on this, but it is logical.
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NHInsider
Guest
I think at that moment when Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself, He was in fact separated from God, who is all-holy. That is the curse of hell, to be cut off from God. That is the punishment we don’t have to suffer, because He did. So I think He felt that horror, which would have been even more horrible for Him as He had never been out of relationship with God for even a minute.
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LilyM
Guest
Exactly - not that God HAD in fact abandoned Him - He never abandons any of us, but He was permitted to feel that sense of separation from God that is part and parcel of sin.
Put it this way - when I sin, I know intellectually that God hasn’t abandoned me, but it sure FEELS as if He had! Of course the reality is that I’ve abandoned Him, but the separation certainly hurts either way.
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JPUSC
Guest
If He is God, how could He be seperated from Himself?
Do you mean separated from God, the Father?
Oh yeah, and how could he be called “Son of God” if the Son and the Father are one and He is God?
Do you mean separated from God, the Father?
Oh yeah, and how could he be called “Son of God” if the Son and the Father are one and He is God?
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LilyM
Guest
In his human nature, as all human nature is separated from God by sin. Remember ‘not my will, but thine, be done’? His human will was not always entirely at one with God’s will, no human will can be.
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Snerticus
Guest
Exactly. I believe that Jesus was displaying His humanity, as well as fulfill the OT passage.
Just as Christ believed for a brief instant that God had abandoned Him, but ultimately knew this was not the case, so too should we not despair when we think God has abandoned us. Like Jesus who willingly gave up His life for us soon after saying this, so too should we endure whatever trials are thrust upon us when we feel God has left us. Our reward will be great in Heaven.
Just as Christ believed for a brief instant that God had abandoned Him, but ultimately knew this was not the case, so too should we not despair when we think God has abandoned us. Like Jesus who willingly gave up His life for us soon after saying this, so too should we endure whatever trials are thrust upon us when we feel God has left us. Our reward will be great in Heaven.
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juliamajor
Guest
That phrase is only a tiny part of Psalm22-You should read the whole psalm to get the real impact of what Jesus was trying to say.
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Matrix_Refugee
Guest
I think only the fact that Christ was in terrible pain and that He was having trouble breathing due to His position on the Cross kept Him from audibly praying that whole Psalm. His human nature was probably inwardly offering the kind of angry, yelling, screaming have-it-out-with-God kind of prayer that I’ve been known to offer (ala the Gary Sinise character in “Forrest Gump” screaming at the heavens), and which I wouldn’t quote here. It may not be the most edifying prayer, but it takes a lot of faith to be angry with God…
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Mark77
Guest
Read the whole Psalm, in Jesus’ day every Jew knew the psalms by heart.
“I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint…
They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots. But You, O LORD, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.”
**“For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.”
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**The Psalm ends with “They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it”.
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
Mark
“I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint…
They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots. But You, O LORD, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.”
**“For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.”
**
**The Psalm ends with “They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it”.
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
Mark
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BRB1
Guest
Christ communicated with the Father via the H.S.
Mortal Sins, unconfessed … drive out the H.S. Perhaps our sins, born by Christ … briefly drove away the H.S., separating Christ from the Father.
Some will say ‘you can’t separate the Father from the Son’… but, God is eternal, yet Christ died.
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Cachonga
Guest
juliamajor and mark77 are on target. Psalms 22 describes the crucifixion to perfection. Every Jew knew this Psalm. Jesus quoting Psalm 22:1 would be similar to someone today standing up in a crowd and singing “Amazing grace. How sweet the sound”. I would suggest that the vast majority of people would automatically know the rest of the song (providing you don’t try this at a synagogue or mosque). In the same way, when Jesus quoted this verse, the very people who were fulfilling this Psalm recognized it, but (apparently) failed to recognize they were in the process of fulfilling this scripture.
BRB1 – Jesus died on the cross, but remember, Jesus is fully God AND fully man. God cannot die, but man can. The death of Jesus on the cross did not separate Him from the Father (or even from the Holy Spirit). Hope this helps!
BRB1 – Jesus died on the cross, but remember, Jesus is fully God AND fully man. God cannot die, but man can. The death of Jesus on the cross did not separate Him from the Father (or even from the Holy Spirit). Hope this helps!
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Nicholas_II
Guest
The link to the Vatican Website given teaches us that God did not infact abandon the Son although jesus felt it to be so.
It is important to remember that what happened on the cross is mystery to us and that the Catechism clearly states that Jesus was not reporbated by God the Father on the cross.
Some of the allusions to him being in hell and bearing sin (literally haveing sins transferred to him and punished in Him by God the father ) seem to be moving towards Penal Substitutionary Atonement, common in Calvinism, and contrary to the doctrines of the Church.
Sin for one thing, is not an objective entity that can be transferred from one place to another and zapped by and angry God. It is a condition, a state of soul.
Thats my brief take on this very complicated subject of the atonement.
It is important to remember that what happened on the cross is mystery to us and that the Catechism clearly states that Jesus was not reporbated by God the Father on the cross.
Some of the allusions to him being in hell and bearing sin (literally haveing sins transferred to him and punished in Him by God the father ) seem to be moving towards Penal Substitutionary Atonement, common in Calvinism, and contrary to the doctrines of the Church.
Sin for one thing, is not an objective entity that can be transferred from one place to another and zapped by and angry God. It is a condition, a state of soul.
Thats my brief take on this very complicated subject of the atonement.
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Nicholas_II
Guest
This quote might actually help explain to me your other post questioning the Marian doctrines. Jesus had two natures but was one person, inidvisibly so. God was born of Mary, baptised by John, performed miracles, was betrayed, died on the cross. Some of it we can not understand but it is true, the Person of God the Son died on the cross. There is no division. He was not Fully God AND fully man. But BOTH God and Man. A slight but very important nuance which might explain your relectance to contemplate the incredible holiness and honour which Mary held as a vessel of this God. Heres the Catechism…
*CCC III. TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN
464 The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.
and in 467
Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; “like us in all things but sin”. He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God.91
We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis.92*
best wishes!
J
JJ59
Guest
Maybe you got a good answer for this all ready, but “Son of God” really means “Son of the Father”. In the New Testament, ‘God’ is usually a title for God the Father. (The divine title for Jesus is usually “Lord”.)
The best answer I’ve found is that the Son and the Holy Spirit both proceed from the Father. (Kinda like the Father is the “big cheese”.)
Tough to explain!
God Bless.
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BRB1
Guest
Except the Catholic Link does speak of Christ as being briefly separated from the Father … by OUR sins.
Perhaps when Christ prayed to the Father while on the Cross … he didn’t get an answer. Thus, he briefly felt abandoned. He knew this moment was coming … since it was spoken of by OT prophets. Yet, at his death … Christ could confidently yield up his H.S. to the Father ---- knowing his work was completed and the Father would accept his sacrifice and restore perfect unity.
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