"My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

[Adamski]

I think that engagement with other Christians of various stripes is important, but I did wince a little when I read the recounting of your conversation.

I don’t know if a full frontal assault on the teachings of his church was the best way to go about it. Forgive me for saying this and I pray you don’t take it the wrong way, but he may have thought he was having a friendly cup of coffee and felt ambushed by your line of inquiry.

I was really interested in what he had to say but it did get a little out of control when he had no rational answers.

Let me also include when I asked how did the bible exist from 300-1500 without your train of thought if Constantine started the Catholic Church?

He responded that “god protected his word”

He also said he took the bible literally and the earth is only 5000 years old and the devil put dinasour bones here to fool us. The I read John 6:53 and he said the bible is literal except that verse.

Also his entire family goes to mass every week and excepts all the church teachings and it has caused some strife.

 

[Adamski]

Adamski.

Great work! It sounds like you are well prepared. I would not suggest anyone but a very well prepared (intellectually and spiritually) Catholic to do what you have done. Keep up the great work. You have earned a lot of my respect.

Brandon Cal, you stated:

Wow! If this means what I think it means, welcome home! If not that’s between you and God. Either way, I just put you and Adamski on my prayer list.

He is willing to meet again we are meeting Wednesday October 9th. He asked me to bring up just one topic and go into depth.

I was thinking a good one would be the catholic belief of a visible church and his belief it is invisible and stick to scripture and it the end talk about ecf

 

[Country_Gal]

My feeling is that some people use the Holy Spirit claim to back up their personal interpretations, desires, inclinations, opinions. Protestants of the born again variety tend to do this a lot. A man is sick of his job and he’ll tell his wife that the Holy Spirit led him to quit. Then, when they use up their savings, the Devil is testing their faith.

One good argument to be in a church that doesn’t put a lot of stock in the private revelations of individuals.

 

[LiberalPrincess]

I had the most bizarre conversation of my life yesterday at Starbucks

Ill start off by discussing how I met the person I talked to for over 90 minutes and it could have gone for ever if I didn’t need to go.

About a month ago I was praying for a local Protestant church that is very anti-catholic
Mars hill in Seattle.
During praying the rosary I heard a voice say that I needed to go to their bible studies at their church. I signed up and went to one. Right away as I met everyone it was almost like I knew why I was called to be there. I sensed that a person I was talking to was a confirmed catholic. He was also the bible study leader. As the bible study progressed my thoughts where confirmed when the group leader said he was a confirmed catholic then he got into the occult and finally he was “saved” at mars hill.

A couple of days after the bible study I called him to see if he would meet one on one because I wanted to here why he was a Christian and why he went to mars hill.

Then yesterday we met at Starbucks ill briefly go into the part of our conversation that was very strange for me. Also he is extremely bright and works at Microsoft

I asked him why he is a Christian
His response was “the Holy Spirit confirmed it when I read the bible”

I responded "last week I talked I talked to a Mormon and they said “the spirit confirmed the Book of Mormon, you both cant be right”

His response “well I’m right and they are wrong”

I responded “I’m a Christian because history, logic, science, and theology all point to it being true so because it is true I have no choice other to be Christian because I love and seek the truth”

Then I asked “why did you pick mars hill over 38,000 different Christian choices”

He responded “the spirit has guided me there because of the bible”

I said “how do you know the bible is true unless you have a church to guide you as in 1 Tim 3:15, and further how do you know what books should be in the bible”

I know he wasn’t just playing a joke on me he also got very angry at me when I told him how great the sacraments where in my life and showed him where the Eucharist and confession was in the bible

Any thoughts on this??

Mars Hill is a pretty well known church in the West Coast, and I know several people who attend one of its churches. May I ask why you label it as “anti-Catholic.” I get that they have theological differences compared to conservative Roman Catholics, which is why they are Protestant, but it does not necessarily mean they are “anti-Catholic.” None of the people I know who attend Mars Hill ever criticized my Catholic religious views, and you certainly should not label the entire church based on the opinions of one person who attends.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Mars Hill is a pretty well known church in the West Coast, and I know several people who attend one of its churches. May I ask why you label it as “anti-Catholic.” I get that they have theological differences compared to conservative Roman Catholics, which is why they are Protestant, but it does not necessarily mean they are “anti-Catholic.” None of the people I know who attend Mars Hill ever criticized my Catholic religious views, and you certainly should not label the entire church based on the opinions of one person who attends.

I’m wondering about this, too, Adamski. I know you said on another thread that Mark Driscoll called the Catholic Eucharist “cannibalism” in a sermon on YouTube. When I watched the whole sermon on Holy Communion which I think was the one you meant, that wasn’t what Driscoll meant–he spoke respectfully of Catholics and said that the early Christians were accused of cannibalism, which is true.

Do you have some other place where you can show us antiCatholicism from Mars Hill? I’d sincerely like to see it, if you do. I have my own questions about Mars Hill, but I’m not willing to accuse them of anti-Catholicism without hard evidence.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I think that engagement with other Christians of various stripes is important, but I did wince a little when I read the recounting of your conversation.

I don’t know if a full frontal assault on the teachings of his church was the best way to go about it. Forgive me for saying this and I pray you don’t take it the wrong way, but he may have thought he was having a friendly cup of coffee and felt ambushed by your line of inquiry.

My feelings as well.

I do think it’s good, Adamski, that you seem to be acting more up-front with him now.

 

[Adamski]

Mars Hill is a pretty well known church in the West Coast, and I know several people who attend one of its churches. May I ask why you label it as “anti-Catholic.” I get that they have theological differences compared to conservative Roman Catholics, which is why they are Protestant, but it does not necessarily mean they are “anti-Catholic.” None of the people I know who attend Mars Hill ever criticized my Catholic religious views, and you certainly should not label the entire church based on the opinions of one person who attends.

My personal experience with mars hill is the following
1- my Jewish friend is constantly told they are going to hell my their mars hill neighbors on mercer island
2- a close friend (non-religious) left his wife because of her constant adulterous behavior and has sole custody of their daughter. His ex later went to mars hill and they advised her to further strain his parenting
3- a former employee of mine went to mars hill, and mocked gay people all the time at work until it became uncomfortable to have him as an employee
4-my neighbor who goes to mars hill said " we only talk about what the Catholic Church believes about once a month in marks surmons"
5- mars hill harasses people in west Seattle during hollowen telling little kids they are going to hell
6- I have tried to have a number of conversations with people at mars hill over the last 10 years they have all been rude and demeaning

I could go on

Also they used to have a you tube video with mark Driscoll banging his head against the wall mocking Jews praying at the wailing wall!!!

Mark Driscoll is an anti-Semite

I have no tolerance for anti semitism I have family members who lived in nazi work camps and my grandfather liberated buchanwald

 

[Country_Gal]

I’m sure all that you describe is not popular on the West Side where you reside. It’s purty liberal over there. Really, why are you trying to fellowship with these folks? You mentioned in another thread that you have a wife and kids, are a very active family that skis and are full of energy in church. Who has time to waste on anti-Semitic gay bashing, Catholic hating church?



I suggest you go home and watch sponge Bob with your kids. That sounds like more fun.

 

[LiberalPrincess]

My personal experience with mars hill is the following
1- my Jewish friend is constantly told they are going to hell my their mars hill neighbors on mercer island
2- a close friend (non-religious) left his wife because of her constant adulterous behavior and has sole custody of their daughter. His ex later went to mars hill and they advised her to further strain his parenting
3- a former employee of mine went to mars hill, and mocked gay people all the time at work until it became uncomfortable to have him as an employee
4-my neighbor who goes to mars hill said " we only talk about what the Catholic Church believes about once a month in marks surmons"
5- mars hill harasses people in west Seattle during hollowen telling little kids they are going to hell
6- I have tried to have a number of conversations with people at mars hill over the last 10 years they have all been rude and demeaning

I could go on

Also they used to have a you tube video with mark Driscoll banging his head against the wall mocking Jews praying at the wailing wall!!!

Mark Driscoll is an anti-Semite

I have no tolerance for anti semitism I have family members who lived in nazi work camps and my grandfather liberated buchanwald

To say that someone is an anti-semite is a pretty bold claim, and you are pretty much relying on hearsay without providing facts or recorded statements to make this claim.

I was curious and looked up “Mark Driscoll” and “Mars Hill” on the Anti-Defamation League’s website and did not find anything. Trust me, considering Driscoll’s prominence on the West Coast, if he or his church had said or done something that was remotely anti-semitic, the ADL would have harped all over him.

I would be more careful with who you label as an anti-semite, it could very well result in having defamation and civil charges brought against you.

 

[Adamski]

To say that someone is an anti-semite is a pretty bold claim, and you are pretty much relying on hearsay without providing facts or recorded statements to make this claim.

I was curious and looked up “Mark Driscoll” and “Mars Hill” on the Anti-Defamation League’s website and did not find anything. Trust me, considering Driscoll’s prominence on the West Coast, if he or his church had said or done something that was remotely anti-semitic, the ADL would have harped all over him.

I would be more careful with who you label as an anti-semite, it could very well result in having defamation and civil charges brought against you.

I saw the video on you tube it i can’t find it or it was taken down, about 4 years ago I forwarded it to the anti deformation league and talked to them

 

[Adamski]

I’m sure all that you describe is not popular on the West Side where you reside. It’s purty liberal over there. Really, why are you trying to fellowship with these folks? You mentioned in another thread that you have a wife and kids, are a very active family that skis and are full of energy in church. Who has time to waste on anti-Semitic gay bashing, Catholic hating church?



I suggest you go home and watch sponge Bob with your kids. That sounds like more fun.

About once a week I meet with a non catholic for about an hour and discuss and debate. It has very helpful. When I came back to the church my wife was a fundamentalist. She thought all Catholics where going to hell. When I started going to mass my wife almost left me on advise of her friends (many mars hill).

Since then my wife has left her fundamentalist church for a low liturgy Lutheran church and we go to both the Catholic Church and the low Lutheran church every week with our kids.

By debating fundamentalist regularly it has saved and drastically improved my marriage by being prepared to talk to my wife.

 

[LiberalPrincess]

I saw the video on you tube it i can’t find it or it was taken down, about 4 years ago I forwarded it to the anti deformation league and talked to them

Well, if in fact you forwarded the purported video to the Anti-Defamation League, then it definitely would have blown up if the video you claim was actually Anti-Semetic. He would have gotten in serious trouble and forced to apologize.

What is your definition of anti-Semitic?

 

[Country_Gal]

Well, if in fact you forwarded the video to the Anti-Defamation League, then it definitely would have blown up if the video you claim was actually Anti-Semetic. He would have gotten in serious trouble.

What is your definition of anti-Semitic?

What is the ADL going to do, sue them? I’m pretty sure a church is allowed to not like Jews.

 

[LiberalPrincess]

What is the ADL going to do, sue them? I’m pretty sure a church is allowed to not like Jews.

ADL releases press releases all the time of churches, religious leaders who make anti-semetic remarks. That’s their job. Their goal is to point out and shed light on anti-semitism. Did you know they went after Pop star Katy Perry’s dad’s small church in Ohio recently for comments he made years back. Because of the ADL, Perry’s Dad was forced to apologize.

If Mars Hill, which is huge, “hated jews,” you would know about it.

 

[benjohnson]

Since then my wife has left her fundamentalist church for a low liturgy Lutheran church and we go to both the Catholic Church and the low Lutheran church every week with our kids.

Hey Adamski, when you’re wife feels comfortable, let’s all go here for a visit - it’s a Lutheran church in west Seattle. It’s a high-church ELCA Lutheran church that’s very welcoming, but very catholic and orthodox for a Seattle Lutheran church.

It may be a good stepping stone into your Catholic faith.

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[JMJ91]

I had the most bizarre conversation of my life yesterday at Starbucks

Ill start off by discussing how I met the person I talked to for over 90 minutes and it could have gone for ever if I didn’t need to go.

About a month ago I was praying for a local Protestant church that is very anti-catholic
Mars hill in Seattle.
During praying the rosary I heard a voice say that I needed to go to their bible studies at their church. I signed up and went to one. Right away as I met everyone it was almost like I knew why I was called to be there. I sensed that a person I was talking to was a confirmed catholic. He was also the bible study leader. As the bible study progressed my thoughts where confirmed when the group leader said he was a confirmed catholic then he got into the occult and finally he was “saved” at mars hill.

A couple of days after the bible study I called him to see if he would meet one on one because I wanted to here why he was a Christian and why he went to mars hill.

Then yesterday we met at Starbucks ill briefly go into the part of our conversation that was very strange for me. Also he is extremely bright and works at Microsoft

I asked him why he is a Christian
His response was “the Holy Spirit confirmed it when I read the bible”

I responded "last week I talked I talked to a Mormon and they said “the spirit confirmed the Book of Mormon, you both cant be right”

His response “well I’m right and they are wrong”

I responded “I’m a Christian because history, logic, science, and theology all point to it being true so because it is true I have no choice other to be Christian because I love and seek the truth”

Then I asked “why did you pick mars hill over 38,000 different Christian choices”

He responded “the spirit has guided me there because of the bible”

I said “how do you know the bible is true unless you have a church to guide you as in 1 Tim 3:15, and further how do you know what books should be in the bible”

I know he wasn’t just playing a joke on me he also got very angry at me when I told him how great the sacraments where in my life and showed him where the Eucharist and confession was in the bible

Any thoughts on this??

From what you have told us, I think this person was very honest with you, including his anger over the sacraments. The Holy Spirit brought to remembrance the teachings of Jesus Christ to the apostles. Would not the same Holy Spirit convict a honestly seeking individual of the veracity of the inspired teachings of Jesus Christ and of the Tanach?

Where Protestants miss the boat is that the NT does not go into great detail with the apostolic traditions regarding the liturgy and the holy eucharist which were passed onto the bishops and presbyters whom they ordained in every church that the apostles had established. This might explain his anger.

Thank God that the Holy Spirit has convicted this individual of the inspiration of the holy scriptures. Thank God that this individual is part of a Christian assembly that holds to the truth of the Holy Spirit and of the holy scriptures, eventhough there is an incompleteness.

 

[batman1973]

Adamski, you have a lot of vigor for your faith! Keep it up!

Franlky, that your debating companion got frustrated just by the subject alone indicates that you really must have struck a chord. I pray that he seeks the Eucharist in God’s time.

Why yes… one is right! That would be the LC-MS

Amen to that brother!

 

[AbideWithMe]

I saw the video on you tube it i can’t find it or it was taken down, about 4 years ago I forwarded it to the anti deformation league and talked to them

Adamski–You made me curious. I’ve heard quite a lot about Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill; I’ve listened to a number of his sermons on YouTube, and he’s generated a good deal of discussion among other Evangelicals who, like me, don’t quite know what to make of him.

So, I tried to find any reference to real antisemitism from him for much of this evening, and honestly, I can’t find it. He does say some things about first century Judaism that are incorrect…but then, misunderstanding and misrepresenting the religious beliefs of those outside one’s own religion is something that goes on all over the place (even here). I also did find a video that may be the one you were thinking of: Driscoll is talking about repetitive prayer, and he uses a Hasidic Jew he saw davening (praying with rhythmic movements) at an airport as one among other examples. He is a bit rude and immature about it, but not really antisemitic.

I’m not here to defend Mark Driscoll as a great pastor, but I’m also not interested in accusing someone of antisemitism and anti-Catholicism by hearsay. If you have public evidence, I’m interested in seeing it.

 

[AbideWithMe]

He also said he took the bible literally and the earth is only 5000 years old and the devil put dinasour bones here to fool us.

That’s really strange. To the best of my knowledge, Evangelicals usually believe the devil doesn’t have creative power; i.e. the ability to create dinosaur bones or fossils.

I did check the Seattle Mars Hill website for any position about the age of the earth. They do have a statement specifically about that, the gist of which is that they have no set position about it.

 

[marshill]

thanks for this thread-- it really is reveling how catholics on this forum judge – someone–

i was telling my family that they will learn a lot about – what different people believe because one can look at the previously posts, and threads-- and they can feel out what religious people that they will be able to “relate” to

this is what mars hill—drisco the preacher – warn about the people-- he is leading and teaching the bible and about Jesus teaches

youtu.be/xMBUugdIX0I

it’s kinda funny-- as he says – how people at the fellowship-- have gone from smoking pot-- to cleaning up their act and only smoke cigerattes now–