My husband is changing!

[Angels_Unaware]

Hi. Haven’t read the whole thread, but it sounded like you have no children yet. Problem solved. I am sure someone has already brought this up, but you will **want **to stay home with your baby for 3 years when he or she is born. Really.

 

[Salonika]

sanctamaria17:

What we ARE saying is that in a marital relationship, men cannot just dictate whatever they want to their wives as if their wives are their daughters. We’re saying that it’s not a sin for a mother to choose to work outside of the home. We even have people on these boards who are stay at home fathers, while the mothers work. We’re saying it depends on the family. That’s what we’re saying.

Good summary santamaria. I would also add we are not advocating that wives dictate as if their husbands are their sons.

santamaria:

I’m saying women should listen to God’s call for them and discern with their husbands what’s best for their families … As I keep saying, it’s up to the family and it’s up to God.

Yes, the discernment is something both should do - one does not discern for the other.

 

[Leonius]

I’ve read through this thread and I agree that St. Gianna was an amazing woman, but she became a saint because she saved the life of her unborn child, not because she was a doctor. She valued the life inside of her over her own life. She was a pediatrician and helped other mothers with their parenting. She was an advocate for children and being a doctor allowed her to meet other mothers and children.

You don’t have to be a doctor to have these qualities and abilities.

The bottom line is that if you work or don’t work, you have to put your children (born or unborn) as number one. I have a very good career and make great money, but everyday, I’m out of the office by 4:00 p.m. and I don’t care who wants to meet with me…I’m gone to pick up my DD from daycare. My daughter is everything to me. When she runs to me and says, “Hi mommy.”; my heart melts everytime! I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else at that moment.

I work because of economics, but I tell you, if we could afford it, I’d throw my career out the window in a second!

I really believe that the woman’s role is to nuture children. We are designed for it…we are more emotional, patient, nurturing and gentle than men. Our bodies also provide milk for our baby.

It is also the man’s role to be a hand’s on parent…nuturing, changing diapers, bathing, etc., but nothing on God’s given earth beats the love and bond that a mother can have with her child. There is just something beautiful about a woman that a man can never touch or imitate. Women are (in my opinion) far more superior to men in this capacity. Women are beautiful creatures and why would we want to be anything different?

Look at our ultimate role model as a woman…Blessed Mary. Look at her qualities…she is so feminine and beautiful. She would definitely put wordly things aside and focus on her family if she were a mother and wife today.

Exactly!

 

[Leonius]

Good summary santamaria. I would also add we are not advocating that wives dictate as if their husbands are their sons.

Yes, the discernment is something both should do - one does not discern for the other.

She is married now, she is one with her husband, her decision will effect the whole family not just herself, as such she must put the needs of the family before her own, if she wants to continue just doing her own thing she should never have married. When you marry you are no longer your own, the husband belongs to the wife and the wife belongs to the husband.

Husband and wife serve each other, sacrifice their own desires for the sake of the other, and both sacrifice for the children. You might think this will make you unhappy, nothing could be further from the truth. When you truly love someone you desire their happiness even above your very own, but in their happiness you find the highest fulfilment of your own own happiness.

And once you become a parent your happiness is found in what is good for your children.

True happiness is found only in serving others. For a husband the others are his wife and children, likewise for the wife it is her husband and her children. If you would be happy in this life you must seek the good of others above your own, as Christ sacrificed Himself for us so you must sacrifice yourself for your family, and in making this sacrifice you will find happiness.

If you rebel and fight against your husband you will only cause pain, it doesn’t have to be like that, you are causing your own unhappiness by doing this and his also. There are no winners in a civil war within the family, everyone loses.

 

[Serap]

She is married now, she is one with her husband, her decision will effect the whole family not just herself, as such she must put the needs of the family before her own, if she wants to continue just doing her own thing she should never have married. When you marry you are no longer your own, the husband belongs to the wife and the wife belongs to the husband.

Husband and wife serve each other, sacrifice their own desires for the sake of the other, and both sacrifice for the children. You might think this will make you unhappy, nothing could be further from the truth. When you truly love someone you desire their happiness even above your very own, but in their happiness you find the highest fulfilment of your own own happiness.

And once you become a parent your happiness is found in what is good for your children.

True happiness is found only in serving others. For a husband the others are his wife and children, likewise for the wife it is her husband and her children. If you would be happy in this life you must seek the good of others above your own, as Christ sacrificed Himself for us so you must sacrifice yourself for your family, and in making this sacrifice you will find happiness.

If you rebel and fight against your husband you will only cause pain, it doesn’t have to be like that, you are causing your own unhappiness by doing this and his also. There are no winners in a civil war within the family, everyone loses.

Exactly (back right at ya!)

There is one thing that we have overlooked in this debate: children are a gift. They are not a right. Children are a blessing and to be given this gift of life is the biggest honor from God that there is in this world. When a mother looks at her chid, she should cherish her child because nothing else matters.

I also agree that if a woman OR man wants to be independent and do his/her own thing, they shouldn’t take on the vocation of marriage. Once the kids come along, the children are number one. Life as it was has ended. It’s time to step up to the challenge and do whatever is necessary. Love is measured by the sacrifices we are willing to make for our loved ones.

Christ sacrificed his life for us. That’s pure love. Blessed Mary sacrificed her life by accepting to be the Mother of God. She was very happy to not have children and serve the community; but when she was asked, she said, “yes”. She then made Jesus her life b/c that was the will of God. Joseph focused on providing for them financially and gave Mary endless love and support. He wasn’t out building Rome; he kept a humble job and made time for his family.

Careers, money, and other material things are not important to God. God made a woman as beautiful as she is to become a mother and to love her children above all else (if she were called to marriage). I don’t understand the concept of a woman who would rather take on the world than focus on her children. I just don’t get it. I see it all the time and it still surprises me.

Marriage is about sacrifice and serving eachother for the good of their family. Both have roles and each of them conform to their roles as they see fit. I am not saying that if a married couple decides that the man staying home is the best for their family is wrong. If that works for them…that’s great and all the blessings to them. Children are better with a loving father than daycare, if that’s possible for that family.

 

[wanner47]

No one is saying, “Pick worldly things instead of your kids.” I think people should put their kids first. My mom also made sure to be home for us. And yes, St. Gianna became a saint not because she was a doctor. But the fact was, she was a doctor, she had a career she enjoyed, and she used it to benefit many families, including her own.

What we ARE saying is that in a marital relationship, men cannot just dictate whatever they want to their wives as if their wives are their daughters. We’re saying that it’s not a sin for a mother to choose to work outside of the home. We even have people on these boards who are stay at home fathers, while the mothers work. We’re saying it depends on the family. That’s what we’re saying.

And no, not every woman is naturally nurturing. I’m saying we shouldn’t prescribe a role for her when even Biblical women worked and made money for the family (Proverbs 31, anyone?).

As for upper middle class paradigm, what I’m saying is that it’s expected in our culture that women would be expected to stay at home the more money her husband makes. Unless she’s professional or poor, even today, people see no need for her to be in the work force.

I’m not saying women should be selfish and forget her children, that she HAS to work. I’m saying women should listen to God’s call for them and discern with their husbands what’s best for their families. But the husband SHOULD NOT force his wife. She’s not his daughter. And I am saying yes, if a mother wants to work and raise kids, she can make it work. As I keep saying, it’s up to the family and it’s up to God. It’s NOT up to society to dictate what a woman should or should not do, just because she’s in happy possession of a uterus.

Ditto to all of this.

It is not wrong for a woman to work, or to pursue her own interests, as long as her family isn’t neglected as a result.

It is *healthy *for a woman, SAHM or otherwise, to pursue her own career, interests and hobbies as long as her family isn’t neglected as a result.

If the Church had disapproved so strongly of working mothers, then I *sincerely *doubt St. Gianna would have been canonized, heroic act or not. Saints are held up to us as role models in all aspects of their lives, not just one. Otherwise everyone who gave their life for another would be made a saint, and that’s just not the case.

 

[Serap]

Ditto to all of this.

It is not wrong for a woman to work, or to pursue her own interests, as long as her family isn’t neglected as a result.

It is *healthy *for a woman, SAHM or otherwise, to pursue her own career, interests and hobbies as long as her family isn’t neglected as a result.

.

This is a very fine line to walk. If a woman is working full/time, then she is already only spending about 3 hours a night with her children and that includes making dinner and cleaning up the kitchen…so that leaves about 2 hours of focusing on your children. Then all that is left are weekends to make up for lost time. When they are young, they nap in the afternoon - 2 hours gone; then they go to bed early…

So where does that leave family if you also want to pursue personal interests in addition to this? In today’s modern world of women working full/time AND pursuing interests; where do the children fit in? How do they feel valued?

Can we women really have it all without sacrificing our children???

 

[kage_ar]

As expected, this becomes yet ANOTHER working moms are sinners thread.

Don’t you think if mom’s working outside the home was a sin, it would be stated SOMEWHERE in Catholic doctrine?

 

[Serap]

As expected, this becomes yet ANOTHER working moms are sinners thread.

Don’t you think if mom’s working outside the home was a sin, it would be stated SOMEWHERE in Catholic doctrine?

No one on this thread is saying working moms are sinners. Even though it’s a debate, we are all in agreement that working moms are very acceptable and often economically necessary.

Most of us here are in agreement even though we think we are not

 

[wanner47]

This is a very fine line to walk. If a woman is working full/time, then she is already only spending about 3 hours a night with her children and that includes making dinner and cleaning up the kitchen…so that leaves about 2 hours of focusing on your children. Then all that is left are weekends to make up for lost time. When they are young, they nap in the afternoon - 2 hours gone; then they go to bed early…

So where does that leave family if you also want to pursue personal interests in addition to this? In today’s modern world of women working full/time AND pursuing interests; where do the children fit in? How do they feel valued?

Can we women really have it all without sacrificing our children???

Wait, are you trying to say that all Catholic moms are obligated to be both SAHMs *and *homeschooling moms? Because when kids start elementary school, then they’re at school all day…

And you also seem to think that SAHMs do no housework whatsoever. So, a Catholic mom is supposed to spend 100% of her time with her kids, 24/7/365… and when is she supposed to cook? Clean? Do laundry? You’re saying that these things must NEVER be done unless the kids are napping or in bed for the night, otherwise the mother is a bad one?

Right. Uh huh. I can tell you that I don’t know of a single SAHM who can do that, espeically if you’re lucky enough to have a child who would not nap unless she was being held (e.g., my daughter as an infant).

You are trying to say that *quantity *of time is superior to *quality *of time. As a mom who also works full-time, I can tell you that the quality of time I spend with my kids is good. As for pursuing my own interests, that’s what I do when the kids are napping. Or in bed. Or while I’m on my lunch break at work. Or sometimes my husband will spend quality time with our children, so they can get one-on-one daddy time (which is very important), so that I can have a break and do something that I enjoy. Sometimes my mother-in-law or my children’s great-grandparents will watch them so my husband and I can have some one-on-one time doing the things that WE enjoy together, because that’s important for building up our marriage.

Quality over quantity. Who is the bigger sinner, the mom who works full-time and spends quality time with her kids, or the hypothetical SAHM who spends the day surfing the Internet and watching TV while her kids fend for themselves? (Note: I am sure that the vast majority of SAHMs are NOT like this, Catholic or otherwise, but I know there are a few that are.)

 

[Serap]

Wait, are you trying to say that all Catholic moms are obligated to be both SAHMs *and *homeschooling moms? Because when kids start elementary school, then they’re at school all day…

And you also seem to think that SAHMs do no housework whatsoever. So, a Catholic mom is supposed to spend 100% of her time with her kids, 24/7/365… and when is she supposed to cook? Clean? Do laundry? You’re saying that these things must NEVER be done unless the kids are napping or in bed for the night, otherwise the mother is a bad one?

Right. Uh huh. I can tell you that I don’t know of a single SAHM who can do that, espeically if you’re lucky enough to have a child who would not nap unless she was being held (e.g., my daughter as an infant).

You are trying to say that *quantity *of time is superior to *quality *of time. As a mom who also works full-time, I can tell you that the quality of time I spend with my kids is good. As for pursuing my own interests, that’s what I do when the kids are napping. Or in bed. Or while I’m on my lunch break at work. Or sometimes my husband will spend quality time with our children, so they can get one-on-one daddy time (which is very important), so that I can have a break and do something that I enjoy. Sometimes my mother-in-law or my children’s great-grandparents will watch them so my husband and I can have some one-on-one time doing the things that WE enjoy together, because that’s important for building up our marriage.

Quality over quantity. Who is the bigger sinner, the mom who works full-time and spends quality time with her kids, or the hypothetical SAHM who spends the day surfing the Internet and watching TV while her kids fend for themselves? (Note: I am sure that the vast majority of SAHMs are NOT like this, Catholic or otherwise, but I know there are a few that are.)

None of the above is what I was saying. I must be a really BAD writer b/c this is the second time someone has misunderstood me.

I agree with all of your views also I am a working mom btw…I’m not against working moms because I AM ONE

I was a SAHM for one year and yes, I know what it’s like. It’s very difficult to find time even for a shower

 

[mommamia]

As expected, this becomes yet ANOTHER working moms are sinners thread.

Don’t you think if mom’s working outside the home was a sin, it would be stated SOMEWHERE in Catholic doctrine?

So it seems.

No one on this thread is saying working moms are sinners. Even though it’s a debate, we are all in agreement that working moms are very acceptable and often economically necessary.

This does not sound like one who thinks that working mothers are acceptable

Leonius:

No one is judging mothers who HAVE to work, but those who would rather work than take care of their own children? Yes that is wrong, it is completely unnatural, how is the child supposed to feel loved when the mother would rather spend her day at work with strangers than with her own flesh and blood, her own child? Such a mother is unfit of the the honoured title of mother and should never have married if she was not wiling to sacrifice herself for her children.

So in all your wisdom, you are saying that my children don’t feel loved, and I am unfit for the title of mother.

or this
ac claire:

I’m glad you’ve enjoyed your part-time work and your part-time parenting. But what about your kids, which do they enjoy more?

My kids enjoy having a mother AND father who love them.

This thread has degraded into uncharitable territories.

OP, I am sorry that some had to take your very legitimate question and use it to belittle the choices of others. I hope you are able to find the strength you need, and that you and your husband can work things out and be on path together as God intended.

 

[whatevergirl]

I really don’t like how these threads sometimes take a turn into sahm’s vs working moms. We should all try to support one another…not mudsling. It really isn’t necessary.

That being said…to the OP…your dh might not be changing, rather he is becoming enlightened to what it means to be a good husband, a strong person for you to count on. Marriage is a partnership, and he should be mindful to not treat you like you are inferior to him…hopefluly, you both find common ground to all this…God bless!

 

[Leonius]

S

This does not sound like one who thinks that working mothers are acceptable

You are looking for malice where there is none, Seraph has already said twice now that she herself is a working mom, that should tell you that she is not saying what you are accusing her of saying.

Choosing to work rather than care for your children when not necessary does great harm to the family and therefore is wrong, you will find that in the Papal encyclical I posted as well if you actually bother to read it.

If it is a necessity for the mother to work then that is simply the way it is and so it must be endured, in that case the mother simply has to do all she can to make the best of a bad situation, and such mothers are to be commended for the great sacrifices they have to make, and make willingly for the good of the family.

However judging by the OP this is not the OP’s situation, rather she is irrationally reacting negatively to her husbands recognition of her uniquely superior ability and suitability to be the primary carer of any children they have together because of the false fears that have been placed in her mind due to the disfiguring and obscuring of women’s being and nature as bestowed upon them by the Creator by secular feminists who wish to destroy every last vestige of Christian civilisation to replace it with their own Godless one, and they have identified the Catholic family as one of their primary targets which they must destroy to achieve their satanic aim.

 

[Leonius]

I really don’t like how these threads sometimes take a turn into sahm’s vs working moms. We should all try to support one another…not mudsling. It really isn’t necessary.

No one is doing that, those who think women should work regardless of whether it is a necessity or not are falsely accusing those who disagree of doing that, but no one is actually doing it.

 

[ac_claire]

No one is doing that, those who think women should work regardless of whether it is a necessity or not are falsely accusing those who disagree of doing that, but no one is actually doing it.

Yes exactly. Serap has said she is a working mother and I had a single working mom myself who did a great job more or less. I’ll probably be a working mother at some point in my life also.

Perhaps I haven’t been clear enough about my own POV. It’s not the working and being a mother that is being called into question. If you do not have to work-- especially if your husband desperately WANTS to support you but you choose to work full time anyway-- when you have a baby or small child at home-- that is jusr neglectful. That’s our point.

I think if we’re going to be mothers we should strive to put them and their needs first as best as we can, in all ways. It’s our responsibility.

 

[whatevergirl]

Yes exactly. Serap has said she is a working mother and I had a single working mom myself who did a great job more or less. I’ll probably be a working mother at some point in my life also.

Perhaps I haven’t been clear enough about my own POV. It’s not the working and being a mother that is being called into question. If you do not have to work-- especially if your husband desperately WANTS to support you but you choose to work full time anyway-- when you have a baby or small child at home-- that is jusr neglectful. That’s our point.

I think if we’re going to be mothers we should strive to put them and their needs first as best as we can, in all ways. It’s our responsibility.

I don’t disagree, I just have never met a mom who would say…I’d rather be working than being at home with my baby…I honestly have never met a one…have you?

 

[mommamia]

I don’t disagree, I just have never met a mom who would say…I’d rather be working than being at home with my baby…I honestly have never met a one…have you?

Yes, me. After about 3 months the charm just wears off. Some women just need a few days away from the kids. Obviously if you choose to work 75+ hours a week, you are going to neglect your family.

However, I do not think that choosing to work two or three days a week is wrong. Even if you don’t have to work. Sorry, I need adult interaction and something to stimulate my brain. Other women are better at finding that at home, some aren’t. Whether I work, or volunteer my time, I need that break. I am not a good mom when I have to spend day after day with my kids. If that makes me less of a mother, or even a horrible person to you, I don’t really care. I know what my family needs, just as I expect you to know what your family needs.

On the other hand, I do think that our society should support SAHM’s more than they do. But seriously, a women who chooses to work is not an ogre, or even a bad mother. Just a person who made a different choice than you.

And with that I am done. I do not want to fight, I do not belittle your choice as some women would. However as long as the Church permits me to continue working, what you have to say about so called natural law is irrelevant to me.

 

[whatevergirl]

Yes, me. After about 3 months the charm just wears off. Some women just need a few days away from the kids. Obviously if you choose to work 75+ hours a week, you are going to neglect your family.

However, I do not think that choosing to work two or three days a week is wrong. Even if you don’t have to work. Sorry, I need adult interaction and something to stimulate my brain. Other women are better at finding that at home, some aren’t. Whether I work, or volunteer my time, I need that break. I am not a good mom when I have to spend day after day with my kids. If that makes me less of a mother, or even a horrible person to you, I don’t really care. I know what my family needs, just as I expect you to know what your family needs.

On the other hand, I do think that our society should support SAHM’s more than they do. But seriously, a women who chooses to work is not an ogre, or even a bad mother. Just a person who made a different choice than you.

And with that I am done. I do not want to fight, I do not belittle your choice as some women would. However as long as the Church permits me to continue working, what you have to say about so called natural law is irrelevant to me.

Ok besides you mommamia…hahaha Wanting adult interaction is not saying that you put your job before your family. lol

I work…and have since my kids started public school. I didn’t always ‘need’ to work, but it started when my husband was laid off early in our marriage. I temped, and soon got taken into a company…and now I’m in sales, make a good living, my kids are 12 and 16…it sort of wouldn’t make sense financially for me to quit. Between paying down debts, and trying to sock some money away for the kids’ college, it often takes two incomes these days. That being said, I was a SAHM when the kids were babes…into toddler years. I did babysit for money though, and it worked quite well. I definitely needed adult interaction back then, and I know what you are saying. I don’t see working moms as a bad thing whatsoever…I personally believe that it takes two parents to raise kids to be well adjusted, loving, capable individuals. Yes, moms can breastfeed…but I don’t believe that women are ‘superior’ caregivers…they are different caregivers than dad, together, the two complementing one another. Our families should come before our careers, no doubt in the world about that…but, I don’t believe any woman I know puts her career before that of her family.

 

[ac_claire]

I don’t disagree, I just have never met a mom who would say…I’d rather be working than being at home with my baby…I honestly have never met a one…have you?

Honestly I’ve never met one. But on this thread I am meeting some for the first time lol. Like you, I’ve met many in real life who would LOVE to stay at home with the kids if they could, but they can’t. Or they think they can’t, in some cases perhaps.

In response to mommamia’s post above: I know you said you don’t care what anyone thinks lol. But since you put it out there-- I actually understand everything you’re saying about your reasons for working part-time with a baby (or babies) at home, etc. I can sympathise with the needing to be around some adults after speaking babytalk for 10 hours, sure. It’s ultimately up to you-- it’s your family. The only reason any of this came up as a “debate” is because some of us worry about the effects this kind of thing has on small children who are left behind during these times when the mother is gone. You’ve talked a lot about how you feel and how it helps you, etc. Has it been honestly better for your kids, is what I wonder? Or were they ok with it?

All I’ve ever seen with little kids-- in the age group that we’re talking about-- is they don’t want to be left with strangers ever. They scream and cry when mommy leaves for work in the morning and when they’re dropped off at the babysitters or at daycare. At least they do until they get used to it, which they usually will since they have no choice in the matter. I don’t have kids yet so I could be wrong about some of this, I just come from a family with a lot of them lol. And I’ve never seen the pattern different from the way I just described. Is there any way that their mothers leaving them for long periods when they’re babies can be good for them?