J
JReducation
Guest
All means every human being that was ever conceived or will be conceived.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
My husband wants to know: Why were the words of consecration changed?
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Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
B
bumpy187
Guest
Very good points indeed. Your points do illustrate how the liturgy and the church evolved naturally and in an organic manner. The “fruits” of Vatican II were completely man made and man centered THATS why so many people blame VII for the church’s ills. It may have been men who made a hash of things and not the VII documents itself but isn’t this enough to say that VII has been a miserable failure?With all due respect, but your post is very confusing. I cannot tell if it’s anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant. In either case, it’s not a very constructive response.
I have no idea how old you are, but I do agree with other people. It does get old to hear people want to blame Vatican II on all the problems of the world. Vatican II achieved many wonderful things too. It would be nice to hear about those.
I was around before Vatican II. Not everything was as perfect as some people want to make it out to be. And not everything is as it appears to be. Please allow me to point out a few things.
There are many things that we take as a given, because we were born in the 20th century. But when we speak of them, we have to put them in proper context so that people can see where they came from and not feel as though someone changed the faith of the Church. Should we preserve them? Of course. They are a product of faith. Even if they are not present in a particular church or diocese, the faith does not change, because the faith pre-dates these things.
- Benches and kneelers: Did you know that the Protestants introduced benches into Church buildings, not Catholics? When the Protestant Reformation took place, the sermons got longer and longer. People go tired and began to bring benches to church. As the Protestants spread, they began to design churches with benches. American Catholics copied it and they introduced kneelers. Churches in Europe did not have benches. People stood during the liturgy, as they do in the East.
- Tabernacle front and center: Did you know that the tabernacle was not always front and center? The practice was introduced by St. Francis of Assisi around 1212. Tabernacles were on the side altar or in a side chapel. When Francis began to rebuild abandoned chapels around Assisi, they were very small. There was no room for a side altar. Francis has the tabernacle placed on the main altar so that it could be housed in the chapel. As his friars migrated through Europe, they took this model with them. As they built churches they put the tabernacle on the main altar. Other religous who ran parishes followed suit.
- Communion rails: Did you know that communion rails were originally erected for political purposes. In Medieval times people often took refuge in churches when invaders came. If you were standing in the sanctuary you could not be arrested. That’s where the word sanctuary was introduced into civil law. The rails had nothing to do with communion per se. People went to communion at a kneeler that was setup in the front of the church, before there were communion rails. In addition, many churches were attached to monasteries. Gradually, people began to kneel at the railing instead of at the kneeler. It made communion faster if the priest would just walk from side to side.
- Statues in churches: Did you know that statues in churches were not introduced until the Renaissance? The usual church had a crucifix over the center altar. As architecture became more elaborate and there was more money for it, the altars got bigger with all kinds of nitches for statues. Until the 1200s, the altars were very simple.
- Confessionals: Did you know that there were no such things as confessionals until after the 1500s. Even today, many European churches do not have a booth as we know it in the USA. Confessionals were a partition with the priest sitting on one side and a kneeler on the other, but they were open for all to see the confessor and the penitent. People did not go to confession every week until after the Middle Ages. So confessionals were not frequently used.
- Protestants at Vatican II: Did you know that they were invited by Bl. Pope John XXIII. He invited them to participate on some committees. But they did not have free reign of the liturgy as some want to say. They did participate in the discussions. There was a proposal for a mass that came out of the discussions. However, that proposal never made it into practice. Bl. John XXIII did not like it and sent it back. The reform that was finally approved by Pope Paul VI was not written by Protestants and it was authorized by a canonically elected pope.
- Simple churches: The first big churches in Christendom were part of monasteries. They were called the moanstic church. They were built and designed according to the Benedictine tradition in the West and the Basilian tradition in the East. The Churches in the East were very colorful with many painting and iconography. In the Benedictine tradition, the churches were white-washed and very asutere. Later stained glass was introduced, but the white walls remained and are still part of the Benedictine and Franciscan traditions. Religious art developed, many bishops and popes commissioned artists to paint the great churches. We don’t have too many Giotto’s, Raphael’s and Michelangelo’s around anymore. Which is sad, because they did create beautiful worship spaces.
Finally, the words of consecration were mistranslated in the English. However, the mistranslation does not invallidate the consecration, because the essential words are still there. Be patient. The corrected translation is coming.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
T
Timothysis
Guest
The answer to that is “no.”
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ProVobis
Guest
Nominal failure at least. Documents are useless if not enforced. If anyone can show me where the documents were executed as written, please feel free to jump in.
The “spirit” was a success, however.
J
JReducation
Guest
Part INominal failure at least. Documents are useless if not enforced. If anyone can show me where the documents were executed as written, please feel free to jump in.
The “spirit” was a success, however.
I have seen some wonderful things come out of Vatican II from where I stand and in my own spiritual journey.
- I was born into Jewish family. I was a kid at the time of the Council. But I was one of the beneficiaries of the Council’s teachings on ecumenism. I’m from VA. During the 1960s we still had institutional discrimination in our schools, despite the changes in law. Jewish, Hispanic and Black children were ignored. We were in the classroom, but were not taught. We were bullied by other kids and teachers looked the other way. My parents were desperate. There was no Jewish school around. Finally, they approached the Capuchin Friars who ran a parish and school in our town. They agreed to admit my family to their school. We were treated with respect and kindness. We were part of the religious education class, but were not forced to participate in the mass or other Catholic prayer services. We were invited, but not forced. These friars intrigued me. As I was graduating from high school my parents did not have money for college. The friars offered me a scholarship to attend Catholic University of America, where I graduated with a degree in Mathematical Philosophy. But the best part is that I was intrigued by these men. I always heard them speak about St. Francis. I read about him. After I finished, I understood their love. To make a long story short, at 18 I became a Catholic thanks to the charity and example of the Capuchin-Franciscans. Today, I’m a Franciscan.
- When I went to the missions in the Amazon region of South America we lived among Native Americans. These people were very superstitious and very afraid of the white descendents of the Spanish Catholics. They kept to themselves living in squalor and segregated. Our friars learned Quechua, the native language, which predates Christianity by about 10,000 years. We wrote the catechism in Quechua, we taught the faith in Quechua and celebrated the mass in Quechua. The natives wrote beautiful hymns about the Blessed Mother for whom they had great love. They brought their instruments and their culture with them. Gradually, their culture was Christianized. Had we not had the opportunity to celebrate the mass in the local language, these folks would still be shying away from their Catholic countrymen. They associated Catholicism with Spanish conquest and have very strong negative feelings toward the Spanish culture.
- I recently met a Korean Franciscan Sister. She’s a member of the Franciscan Sisters of the Martyr St. George. She’s an excellent canon lawyer. In fact, she has been on EWTN several times. Her name is Sr. Maximilia. She’s one of the best Defenders of the Bond in the marriage tribunals in the USA. This was not possible before Vatican II. Women were not allowed to study canon law or enter the marriage tribunal. Sister is not only a excellent canon lawyer, but she’s also a leader in the Conference of Major Superiors of Women Religoius, one of the most Orthodox organizations of women religious in the USA.
- In the 1980s Cardinal O’Connor of New York was desperate to help women in crisis pregnancies. The Church was under attack for her position on abortion. The Cardinal placed an ad in the paper for Sisters of Life. Today they are a religious congregation with over 100 sister working in all aspects of Respect Life. They are lawyers, nurses, teachers, babysitters, parenting experts, family counselors and have saved many unborn lives. This was not possible before Vatican II. Sisters did not go out into the secular world and confront and change social structures. Granted, we still have abortion, but we also have young women who consecrate their lives to the Gospel of Life in a new kind of religious community that embraces traditional religious life with current moral and social needs. They are not social workers, nurses or teachers. They are a prophetic voice in the world.
- We did not have permanent deacons. The Church had lost this. The deacons were once an important part of the clergy, all the way through the Middle Ages. Gradually, the permanent deacon disappeared. The permanent diaconate was reintroduced as a result of Vatican II’s revisiting the sacrament of Holy Orders, the mission the Church and the role of all ordained ministers in the Church. Today, permanent deacons are not just found in the USA. They are missionaries, theologians, educators, pastoral assistants, chaplains and most of all, they are present again. We have all three orders of the priesthood alive and well.
- The Church’s Constitution on its role in the modern world has helped people of other faiths understand that the Catholic Church is not a power to be feared. Many non-Catholics gained a deeper understanding of the Catholic Church and those who have bothered to look at the document have lost their fear of Catholicism. There is a greater appreciation for Catholicism as evidenced by the large number of non-Catholic Christians converting to Catholicism or asking to be admitted to the Church, as is the case with the Anglican Communion. The image that many Protestants had of Catholicism was one of suspicion.
J
JReducation
Guest
Conclusion
Part II
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Part II
- The Document on the Apostolate of the Laity moved many lay men and women to go on to study theology and other ministries. Today we have lay theologians such as the many that we see on EWTN. They are very good. We have lay evangelists such as Johnette Benkavitch and Rosalind Moss, to name a few.
- The idea of a cloistered nun running the world’s largest TV networks was anathema prior to Vatican II. No cloistered nun was ever given permission to be seen outside of the cloister. As a result of Perfectae Caritatis, the Poor Clares were able to examine their lives and discover that they could preserve their enclosed life and like their spiritual father, St. Francis, they could preach the Gospel to the world. That’s how we got EWTN.
- The document on the scriptures helped Catholics to enter the world of exegesis. There was always the fear that a historical critical study of the scriptures would obscure the faith. However, Protestants were doing this since the 19th century. The Council defended the inerrancy of scripture while encouraging the study of their origins and context. This has been a tool that has proven very useful in preaching, spiritual directions and the writing of theology, especially Christology. One of the best works to come out of this movement has been Cardinal Ratzingers’s book, Jesus of Nazareth. While it needs some tweaking here and there, it’s an excellent work on Christology. Yes it does need tweaking. Pope Benedict himself recognizes this in his introduction and invites all Catholic theologians to critique his writing and correct mistakes in it. This invitation to work with the Pope in developing a Christology that is faithful to scripture and to reason was never available before. The very idea of working with a Pope on Christology was unheard of.
- The role of the bishops was revisited and restated by Vatican II. We have always known that bishops are not perfect human beings. God knows that we have had some very interesting bishops throughout history. But today, bishops work closer together in conferences, provinces and local dioceses. They also work closer with their deacons and priests. We look a bishops like Charles Chaput, OFM. Cap who is very involved in the Pro-Life Movement. Modern day bishops are neither conspiritors with political powers no antagonists who keep their distance. Their work is harder than before, because they are in the middle of the issues that affect the moral lives of nations.
- Popes visiting non-Catholic nations was unheard of. Heck, popes leaving the Vatican was unheard of . Paul VI changed all that with is trip to the UN and the New York World’s Fair. John Paul II did much to promote priestly and religious vocations among youth. This was the product of the Council’s intense reflection on the mission of the Church and the papacy in the modern world. Today we have new religious communities of young men and women who have reconciled traditional religious life with the newer needs of the Church. About 20 new religious communities for brothers, sisters and priests have been born in the USA alone. Many more in Africa and Australia. These communities take their cue from Perfectae Caritatis’ requirement that religious return to the roots, preserve the traditions of their founders, but respond to the needs of today’s man. For a very long time religious life was stuck in the same ministries: education, nursing and social work, while other needs developed around us.
- The role of the family in the Catholic Church was a major concern for men like Fr. Peyton and Bishop Sheen. But it was not being generalized. Vatican II paid special attention to the family. Gradually such movements a Couples for Christ and others came into existence, fulfilling the hopes and dreams of these two prophetic men.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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ProVobis
Guest
Thanks for a good summary of good things that happened after Vatican II, not necessarily as a result of Vatican II however. Much of what you listed might have happened anyway but that is speculation on my part.
While I had no problem with introducing more vernacular in the liturgy and music, disparaging the traditional language of the Church and the traditional Mass, which was celebrated worldwide and unified many cultures, was certainly not necessary. It became quite fashionable to slam everything traditional; that it perhaps brought in a few converts was a small consolation to those who had prided themselves as being faithful Catholics.
Also, while the role of deacon was elevated, the roles of subdeacon and tertiaries were eliminated. I didn’t understand the pastoral value of doing that.
You mentioned cloistered nuns. But isn’t that a choice that they make? Aren’t you sort of reneging on your own intentions as far as your own vocation vows if you wish to speak on TV or whatever? How is this a good thing?
Perhaps the biggest change culturally, however, was the growing acceptance of ABC. Though Paul VI closed the proverbial barn with his Humanae Vitae, nevertheless the horses had already escaped, encouraged by Paul VI’s willingness to listen to already committed theological advocates on the matter and his own Populorum Progressio he had earlier released. I don’t blame this on Vatican II, however.
There are a few other concerns I might have after I reread your two posts.
While I had no problem with introducing more vernacular in the liturgy and music, disparaging the traditional language of the Church and the traditional Mass, which was celebrated worldwide and unified many cultures, was certainly not necessary. It became quite fashionable to slam everything traditional; that it perhaps brought in a few converts was a small consolation to those who had prided themselves as being faithful Catholics.
Also, while the role of deacon was elevated, the roles of subdeacon and tertiaries were eliminated. I didn’t understand the pastoral value of doing that.
You mentioned cloistered nuns. But isn’t that a choice that they make? Aren’t you sort of reneging on your own intentions as far as your own vocation vows if you wish to speak on TV or whatever? How is this a good thing?
Perhaps the biggest change culturally, however, was the growing acceptance of ABC. Though Paul VI closed the proverbial barn with his Humanae Vitae, nevertheless the horses had already escaped, encouraged by Paul VI’s willingness to listen to already committed theological advocates on the matter and his own Populorum Progressio he had earlier released. I don’t blame this on Vatican II, however.
There are a few other concerns I might have after I reread your two posts.
J
JReducation
Guest
Let’s look at some of these points. Let’s pretend we’re in a lab looking through a microscope and analyzing the pieces.
pquote] Also, while the role of deacon was elevated, the roles of subdeacon and tertiaries were eliminated. I didn’t understand the pastoral value of doing that.
The pastoral role of the deacon was not elevated. It was restored. This is the way that it was orignally meant to be. Deacons were at the service of the bishop, not just liturgical figures. Liturgy was one of their many functions. The minor orders were no longer needed so they were reduced to ministries. But they are still around in different forms. I’m not sure who you got tertiaries in there. There I’m confused. Tertiaries are members of a religious order and they are still around and alive and well.
Interesting.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
That would be specualtion and everyone knows that speculation is not always useful. However, I will add this. The documents facilitated much of this.
There is no reason for faithful Catholics to feel hurt, offended or discouraged because the liturgy was allowed in the vernacular. It is not an assault on them or a denial of their fidelity. What some may consider “a few converts” as you say, to those of us who go to the missions, these are souls that are won for Christ. Christ loves each one of them very much. We never downplay the value of their conversion, especially when they join the Church in the thousands.
pquote] Also, while the role of deacon was elevated, the roles of subdeacon and tertiaries were eliminated. I didn’t understand the pastoral value of doing that.
The pastoral role of the deacon was not elevated. It was restored. This is the way that it was orignally meant to be. Deacons were at the service of the bishop, not just liturgical figures. Liturgy was one of their many functions. The minor orders were no longer needed so they were reduced to ministries. But they are still around in different forms. I’m not sure who you got tertiaries in there. There I’m confused. Tertiaries are members of a religious order and they are still around and alive and well.
You know that I was referring to Mother Angelica and the Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration. In the Franciscan tradition, the enclosure was for the purpose of prayer, not stability. That’s the Benedictine tradition. What happened over the centuries was that the Benedictine practices were imposed on all enclosed nuns. When Perfectae Caritatis said that religious orders should return to the charism of their founders, the Poor Clares were free to return to the charism of St. Clare. St. Clare has a very active ministry from behind the grill. She sent missionary cloistered nuns all over Europe. She was a spiritual director. She was the mother of more than 30 monasteries. She was also the spiritual mother of the friars. This was all lost as they became more Benedictine. With Perfectae Caritatis, they were free to be daughters of St. Francis who was a preacher. Speaking on TV and running EWTN is very consistent with the preaching ministry of St. Francis and Clare. Clare preached without ever leaving San Damiano.
Populorum Progreso was a social encyclical, it built on Rerum Novarum. It had nothing to do with family planning. Humanae Vitae was much broader than artificial birth control. It redefined, in contemporary language what the Church has always taught about the nature of man and his role in God’s plan. They overlap in that they both address man’s role in God’s plan, but the first focusses on man’s role in God’s plan for society and the second on God’s plan for life.
Interesting.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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truevaticanii
Guest
I’m sick of people using the “spirit of Vatican II” to excuse illicit, invalid, modernistic behavior.m134e5, thank you for your post.
I am sick to death of people who blame V2 for every problem in the Church, especially people who are not old enough to remember what the church was before V2.
I would be interested in the objections of the OP’s husband to the present words of the Consecration and what does he remember them to be. Is he old enough to remember?
I
IVDAE
Guest
modernists always defend the errors of the church although it is already exposed. Is the sacraments are valid if it is abused, diverted??? especially the sacrament of Eucharist??
once the words of consecration were changed, the leeser grace was aquired.
Holy Mass is the Celebration and repetition of the unbloody sacrifrice offered by Our Lord Jesus Christ during the last supper at the Upper Room
J
JReducation
Guest
Bold is mne
modernists always defend the errors of the church although it is already exposed. Is the sacraments are valid if it is abused, diverted??? especially the sacrament of Eucharist??
once the words of consecration were changed, the leeser grace was aquired.
Holy Mass is the Celebration and repetition of the unbloody sacrifrice offered by Our Lord Jesus Christ during the last supper at the Upper Room
Who said that?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
B
baylee
Guest
Round and round we go…where we stop nobody knows…
modernists always defend the errors of the church although it is already exposed. Is the sacraments are valid if it is abused, diverted??? especially the sacrament of Eucharist??
once the words of consecration were changed, the leeser grace was aquired.
Holy Mass is the Celebration and repetition of the unbloody sacrifrice offered by Our Lord Jesus Christ during the last supper at the Upper Room
So would you agree that we should say the words of consecration in Aramaic…since that’s exactly how Christ said them (not in Latin)? I just want to make sure people are consistent here.
Also, have you read St Paul’ version of the words of consecration that he himself said he received form the Lord? Are you suggesting that those words are not valid? Because they aren’t exactly the same words Christ used in Matthew and Luke.
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ProVobis
Guest
Yes, it would make more sense to have the words of consecration in Aramic and this is done in at least one of the Eastern Rites, I understand.
But since we don’t even know for sure what Christ’s prayers that night, how can anyone know for sure what language He spoke them? Christ probably understood and spoke Aramaic, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and perhaps a few other languages.
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baylee
Guest
Actually, come to think of it, it was probably Hebrew considering the Last Supper was the Passover Seder. Do we know for sure? Probably not. But this former Jew is betting on Hebrew.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Wonderful post, brother! Thank you!!With all due respect, but your post is very confusing. I cannot tell if it’s anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant. In either case, it’s not a very constructive response.
I have no idea how old you are, but I do agree with other people. It does get old to hear people want to blame Vatican II on all the problems of the world. Vatican II achieved many wonderful things too. It would be nice to hear about those.
I was around before Vatican II. Not everything was as perfect as some people want to make it out to be. And not everything is as it appears to be. Please allow me to point out a few things.
There are many things that we take as a given, because we were born in the 20th century…
- Benches and kneelers: Did you know …
- Tabernacle front and center: Did you know …
- Communion rails: Did you know…
- Statues in churches: Did you know…
- Confessionals: Did you know…
- Protestants at Vatican II: Did you know…
- Simple churches: The first big churches in Christendom…
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Paul
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ServoFides
Guest
JReducation,
Thank you for all of your posts to this thread. Very illuminating and respectful - bravo.
Thank you for all of your posts to this thread. Very illuminating and respectful - bravo.
S
ServoFides
Guest
Lumen Gentium was instrumental in my journey into full communion with the Church. I believe the cultural upheaval of the 60s/70s and leadership’s (at all levels) failure to respond to it adequately was primarily responsible for the confusion that followed the council - not Vatican II itself. Pope John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and many others (i.e., Catholic Answers, EWTN, etc) have done much to rectify the situation and there has been a great flowering of orthodoxy in the last ten years. I believe the great threat now is partisan politics and the bending of Catholic truth to match a particular political party.
J
JReducation
Guest
This is very well said. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
I’ll add to what you said something that one of our friars said recently. There was a program on the priesthood, on EWTN. I don’t know the name, because I turned it on half-way into the program. But there was a short clip in which Fr. Benedict G. refered to the “Pope John Paul Generation.” He was pointing to the same thing that you have said. John Paul did a great deal to help the world understand that Catholicism is not a threat to non Catholics or the world. He pointed out that as a result of John Paul’s mission and ministry to youth the number of young men and women entering religious life and priesthood is on the rise. Most interesting, this group of young men and women are very traditional, but in a very healthy way.
They keep to tradition, while at the same time they are not disrespecting people by making them feel that they are not good Catholics. They are addressing real issues, but with a high degree of gentleness and intelligence.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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