My husband was denied Baptism

[Gorgias]

From the wording above, I assume that your husband was previously married.

Actually, kellerk didn’t say that it was her husband’s annulment; perhaps it’s hers.

If that were the case, then this makes this situation more complicated. Since she’s a Catholic, if kellerk were previously married and that marriage took place in the Catholic Church, then it would be a longer process to determine whether her first marriage was valid. That, right there, would make her case and her friend’s case very different, and might be the reason that there was a difference in the priest’s approach. kellerk didn’t want to give all the details of the situation, and we should respect her wishes in this regard.

 

[kellerk]

It does you no good to continue to compare situations; it is just cutting up your peace and causing you to assume or think badly of the RCIA director, priest, etc.

Certainly you can ask your pastor to clarify your situation and be sure that there is nothing you can do to move up your husband’s baptism and reception into the church.

What the situation is with anyone else, their specific sins or ommisions are between them and God (and the priest). Leave it that way. We all have enough of our own issues to worry about!

I will say a prayer for you and your husband.

Its tough but, I believe you’re right. I will consider.

Thank you for your prayers.

 

[StudentMI]

Your best bet would be to talk with your priest calmly and rationally, and if you feel like it talk with another priest at another parish. Forget about the other woman. You don’t know what she has told the priest about her life in Confession and outside of it, so you can’t use her situation to judge yours. Best to just forget it. It doesn’t help your situation to bring her into it in discussion or her herself.

 

[Gorgias]

I knew this issue was too complicated to try to talk about on here.

LOL… if there’s one thing that’s true, it’s that these situations are always complicated! No problems…!

I would like to ask someone though. It’s hard to explain without it sounding petty but, I have an honest inquiry here.

Perhaps I’ll speak with the director, and perhaps even ask my friend to be a part of the conversation. It’s not as if I’m upset with her, she’s a very nice lady and she did confide in me, I didn’t seek her out. Its not as if I’m conspiring anything. I just have honest questions.

That sounds reasonable. And, if it’s your pastor who advised you to wait on baptism until your husband’s annulment comes through, then maybe it’s OK to talk with him about it. It might be as simple as asking him, “Mary and I were talking, and it seems like our situation and her situation are the same. Yet, she was baptized. Can you help me understand why you advised us to wait?” He may well be unwilling to talk about another person’s situation with you, but he should probably be willing to explain your situation…

 

[kellerk]

Nope. Ive never been married. It is his annulment.

The details are eerily similar except that we are in a civil marriage and she is unmarried/cohabitating.

I’m happy to go into further detail. I just didn’t want to go on and on in my opening statement.

I really don’t see any other difference in our situations. That’s why I’m asking you guys. Should I say something to someone?

 

[Gorgias]

I knew this issue was too complicated to try to talk about on here.

My husband was married and divorced. His ex was not catholic. He was never baptized.
She was married and divorced. Her ex was not catholic. She was never baptized.

by the way: one reason that these situations are complicated is that the Church has to consider not just the person and their ex-spouses, but the previous ex-spouses of their ex-spouses!

For example, you mention that her ex is not Catholic. Is he Christian? Was he married prior to their marriage?

(If he was, then perhaps he was never free to marry her. That would make their annulment case simpler.) That might explain the difference between her case and yours.

There’s lots to consider in determining the validity of a marriage!

 

[kellerk]

LOL… if there’s one thing that’s true, it’s that these situations are always complicated! No problems…!

That sounds reasonable. And, if it’s your pastor who advised you to wait on baptism until your husband’s annulment comes through, then maybe it’s OK to talk with him about it. It might be as simple as asking him, “Mary and I were talking, and it seems like our situation and her situation are the same. Yet, she was baptized. Can you help me understand why you advised us to wait?” He may well be unwilling to talk about another person’s situation with you, but he should probably be willing to explain your situation…

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to help me.

 

[kellerk]

by the way: one reason that these situations are complicated is that the Church has to consider not just the person and their ex-spouses, but the previous ex-spouses of their ex-spouses!

For example, you mention that her ex is not Catholic. Is he Christian? Was he married prior to their marriage?

(If he was, then perhaps he was never free to marry her. That would make their annulment case simpler.) That might explain the difference between her case and yours.

There’s lots to consider in determining the validity of a marriage!

She said he was very controlling and would not allow her to even go to church. But, I don’t see how any of that makes a difference. As I said before, she is still currently being reviewed for an annulment, it has not been competed.

 

[quiet52]

Pastors must follow diocesan policy, which is to not to baptize someone if they have divorced and re-married, unless the first spouse has died. The first marriage must first either be dissolved by Pauline or Petrine privilege, or be determined by the diocesan Tribunal to be invalid (defect of consent). You can probably confirm this by looking for your diocese’s marriage preparation norms on its diocesan web site, under the Tribunal Office.

As for your friend’s situation, you don’t know all the facts, and probably never will. Perhaps she hasn’t fully disclosed everything to you, or perhaps the RCIA director or pastor made a mistake. Although it’s none of your business, if you believe that it is possible that your friend and her live-in partner are sexually active, please pray for them.

 

[aemcpa]

She’s cohabitating. We’re in a civil marriage.

This makes the two situations different, does it not?

 

[kellerk]

Pastors must follow diocesan policy, which is to not to baptize someone if they have divorced and re-married.

So, is it possible that she was allowed to be baptized because she had divorced but, had not been remarried?

 

[kellerk]

This makes the two situations different, does it not?

As I said, that’s the only difference I can see.

 

[LilyM]

As I said, that’s the only difference I can see.

Well it’s a pretty durn important one, from the point of view of the civil law as well as Church law and procedure.

 

[aemcpa]

As I said, that’s the only difference I can see.

Seems to me that it could be a pretty substantial difference. Sins prior to baptism are one thing; they will be washed away. But an invalid marriage doesn’t become valid with the baptism of one of the spouses.

 

[kellerk]

Well it’s a pretty durn important one, from the point of view of the civil law as well as Church law and procedure.

I don’t understand? Please explain. She is seeking an annulment. The reason we were told we had to wait was because of the annulment and that we must remarry in the church. Is this not the case for everybody?

 

[aemcpa]

I don’t understand? Please explain. She is seeking an annulment. The reason we were told we had to wait was because of the annulment and that we must remarry in the church. Is this not the case for everybody?

You’re in an invalid marriage. To be able to receive Communion in the Church, you and your husband would have to either A) get your marriage convalidated or B) separate.

She is NOT IN A MARRIAGE. She doesn’t have to do anything to get her marriage regularized because there isn’t one to regularize. She is getting an annulment, but she didn’t go ahead and get married again before she was allowed to, like you and your husband did. If she wants to eventually marry her baby daddy, she needs an annulment before she does so. But the Church certainly can’t require her to marry a guy just because he knocked her up.

 

[kellerk]

You’re in an invalid marriage. To be able to receive Communion in the Church, you and your husband would have to either A) get your marriage convalidated or B) separate.

She is NOT IN A MARRIAGE. She doesn’t have to do anything to get her marriage regularized because there isn’t one to regularize. She is getting an annulment, but she didn’t go ahead and get married again before she was allowed to, like you and your husband did. If she wants to eventually marry her baby daddy, she needs an annulment before she does so. But the Church certainly can’t require her to marry a guy just because he knocked her up.

Wow, pretty blunt. I’m not suggesting the church should require her to “marry the guy”. I’m trying to figure out why she could get Baptized and he couldn’t. She is living with a man as if they were married. Last I checked, that was not ok.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t understand? Please explain. She is seeking an annulment. The reason we were told we had to wait was because of the annulment and that we must remarry in the church. Is this not the case for everybody?

YOU are seeking sacramental marriage within the Church. SHE is not seeking the Church’s blessing on her current relationship as you are.

YOU therefore need to be free to enter into such a sacramental marriage. SHE does not.

She can receive baptism regardless of whether her first marriage is valid or not, although ideally she has repented and confessed of her sins of fornication and contraception, or will do so with God’s grace.

 

[LilyM]

Wow, pretty blunt. I’m not suggesting the church should require her to “marry the guy”. I’m trying to figure out why she could get Baptized and he couldn’t. She is living with a man as if they were married. Last I checked, that was not ok.

If she has never had any intention of stopping sleeping with the guy, and the priest knows this to be the case, then no it is not OK.

We can only presume, since he stuck to his guns and the rules in your case, that he also would have stuck to the rules in hers if she or anyone had told him that she had no intention of stoppong sleeping with him.

You will never know what she told him, or he her, about her situation.

 

[aemcpa]

Wow, pretty blunt. I’m not suggesting the church should require her to “marry the guy”. I’m trying to figure out why she could get Baptized and he couldn’t. She is living with a man as if they were married. Last I checked, that was not ok.

Actually, of the two of you, you’re the only one living with a man as if you were married. She is living with a man, but they are not even attempting marriage, and for all we know, she agreed to refrain from fornication and contraception until she is free to marry.

To be clear, it is definitely not OK to be living in a cohabitation arrangement where fornication and contraception are part of the equation. But it is by definition a transient arrangement and not one that necessarily persists from month to month or day to day. A civil marriage is a permanent commitment, and it is one that Catholics cannot enter without it being by its nature a sacrament. So if your husband were to be baptized, he would immediately be in a situation where he is simulating a sacrament. You have the option to get civilly divorced and physically separated, and then I cannot imagine that there would be any impediment to your husband’s baptism.