My mom won't enforce modesty--what to do?

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Most threads on CAF stray far off topic unless the OP comes back and responds frequently. Sometimes, even then, some posters just seem to want to turn ever thread into a philosophical/dogmatic debate.

:rolleyes:
True. I have to plead guility to being carried away at times too.
 
Dear severus68,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope you are keeping well.

It is all a question, dear sister, of dressing with good taste and decency, so as not to transgress the boundaries of propriety. Provided that a woman is guided by a well-formed conscience, and does not take her cue from the debased culture around her, then her decision making respecting her attire will always be appropriate and in keeping with Catholic teaching regarding modest apparel. Thus, for example, a midi-skirt and top that does not give unseemly prominence to body shape/parts is perfectly decourous and surely a stark contrast to a mini-skirt worn with high-healed shoes and a skin-tight T-shirt, which is far too unbecoming for a woman professing religion.

To argue from thefalse premise, as many modern day Catholics do,that the only standard of modesty to be followed is what is appropriate for the time and place in our culture, reveals a monumental failure to think with an authentic Catholic mind. More, it reveals a mind that has become thoroughly imbued with moral relativistism where there are virtually no absolutes as regards clothing choices.

As to the whole issue of swimwear, there is no valid reason as to why these should somehow be exempt from moral considerations. Thus questions concerning modest and immodest attire continue to be highly relevant. A devout Catholic will surely ask whether sports or swimwear is more unduly revealing than it ought to be for its particular function. Whilst one must have a reduction in the ammount of clothing for the purposes of swimming and atheletics, it hardly seems necessary that such attire should be very tight-fitting and expose an inordinate ammount of flesh. To don a bikini is tantamount to wearing your underwear in public and it matters not whether the context is the beach or the local swimming pool, for the men who are present at these places do not somehow become immune to concupisence. The faithful must be realistic regarding the human condition and man’s very wounded nature on account of Original Sin. This is why our Church and Sacred Scripture exhort us to dress modestly and resist prevailing ideologies.

Therefore, dear friend, whether it is sportswear or bathing costumes, a Catholic must understand that because chastity is an absolute value, it is never permitted, irrespective of the setting or the prevailing cultural norms, to stimulate the base sexual passions in a member of the opposite sex (other than one’s marital spouse).

In view of the prevailing decadent Western culture today, perhaps it might well be advisable for a respectable Catholic man or woman to avoid such places as the beech. You will inevitably be surrounded by multitudes of both sexes who care very little respecting modesty issues and who have no inhibitions about flaunting their body parts to the gaze of complete strangers. In short they reveal that they are devoid of any moral sense and of God’s demands for being clad in “seemly apparel” (I Tim. 2: 9).

God bless, dear friend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
You appear to want to live in a time which has long passed. What you fail to see that even when women were fully covered up, acted demure etc, sin was rampant. One of those sins was in looking at women as lesser beings.

I disagree with you you strongly. We cannot say we are better than animals, we are made in the image of God and then go on about how men are easily tempted and led to lust. That really is rather insulting to men and also giving a way out for those who want it. Yes, we fall. Rather than blame others, when we fall, we should stand,shake ourselves off and try harder.
 
Why?
So? It is not necessary for me to eat chocolate truffles, but doing so is not sinful.

And there is a huge difference between showing one’s face and covering it completely. The Vatican recognizes one as necessary for modesty and the other as not, as do I. What is the difference? Is it culturally-dependent? Is it universal? If universal, then how would identifying exactly what standards of modesty there are not be a hugely productive goal?

How do you determine whether a garment fits those criteria? And what are the analogous standards for men?

I do not remember learning that in Sunday School. Could you point me to a currently authoritative Church document that requires us to view women as “weaker vessels” and men as, well, out-of-control monkeys?

Good. We now have an explicit motive for modesty – the rousing up of impure thoughts. First, I argue that tightly-fitting jeans do give “unseemly visual prominence to their shape,” but that is not even necessary to dismantle this statement completely. You say that they “excite impure thoughts.” This is a quantifiable matter – please provide the quantities. Surely you would not have made such a claim without data, so I would love to see it.

Even tabling the issue of tight-fitting jeans, knee-length shorts are most obviously neither bold nor provocative.
Dear Baelor,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your most recent responses.

The stomach is a private area of the body that should be respectfully kept covered in public, for there is no legitimate reason why it ever needs to be revealed to strangers. Eating choclate truffles is clearly not an act of immodesty and hence not sinful, though eating them to excess would be gluttonous. Therefore the two things are hardly parallel as far as the present debate is concerned.

If, my dear friend, a garment gives unseemly prominence to our body shape/parts and exposes an immoderate amount of flesh, as a bikini, mini-skirt or tightly-fitting jeans most decidedly do, then we can say with certainty that that item of clothing is immodest and offensive. This has always been and, indeed, is the criterion which Catholics use to determine whether or not a particular item of clothing is modest or immodest, as the consistent tradition of the Chuch will confirm. Some modern day Catholics may not like this teaching and feel that it is too austere or irrelevant for the 21st. century, but the problem lies with them and not our most holy religion and its still arduous demands.

The natural physical weakness of women is plainly taughty in Sacred Scripture (I Pet. 3: 7) and that is not sommething that changes with the passage of time. Moreover, St. Paul gives as one reason for refusing the vocation of a priest to a woman, the fact that she is more inclined to be deceived ( see I Tim. 2: 13,14). Thus there is an inherent weakness of will in a women that can make her vulnerable to being sexually expoited by men. Now, my dear brother, it is imperative that we all entertain correct and realistic views as to the human condition of both sexes and their innate propensity to sin. Man is a fallen being with a wounded nature and thus he must continually strive to keep his body in subjection by quelling his baser instincts, which are disordered as a consequence of Original Sin. Therefore, not only must men have custody of their eyes (Job 31: 1), but women also must ensure that they are modestly attired so as not to incite men to unnchaste thoughts by their want of due consideration in the matter of vesture. This is not some novel opinion but is elementary Catholic moral theology that has consistently been taught by the Church down the ages.

As long as men and women continue to be affected by consequences of Original Sin, they must needs take measures to minimise its vicious effects. This will include dressing in a modest manner to protect chastity and charitably showing consideration to others, so as not to be the occasion of temptation.

Surely the whole purpose of tightly-fitting jeans, and, indeed, all skin-tight articles of clothing is to accentuate body parts and make the wearer of such indecent attire appear sexually provocative.

Mini-skirts and bikini’s, however, most certainly do fall under the censure of Pope XII as being “bold” and “provocative” and that surely, dear friend, is an inelucatable deduction that cannot be reasonably argued against, save only by those, perhaps, who have imbibed the morally degenerate atmosphere of our current Western culture and its moral relativism.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
You appear to want to live in a time which has long passed. What you fail to see that even when women were fully covered up, acted demure etc, sin was rampant. One of those sins was in looking at women as lesser beings.

I disagree with you you strongly. We cannot say we are better than animals, we are made in the image of God and then go on about how men are easily tempted and led to lust. That really is rather insulting to men and also giving a way out for those who want it. Yes, we fall. Rather than blame others, when we fall, we should stand,shake ourselves off and try harder.
Dear severus68,

Not everything associated with previous generations is necessarily worthless or irrelevant. Many liberal freethinkers talk much of man coming of age and outgrowing the prissy Victorian morality of yesteryear, but informed Catholics know that that is downright pagan arrogance and treat such ignorance with the contempt that it quite rightly deserves.

As long as man has a wounded nature with which to contend, dear friend, sin will be rampant, but by men seeking to have custody of their eyes and women dressing in a seemly manner that befits their profession of religion, both sexes can perhaps help in making it less rampant. Surely, this, and protecting chastity, was what led to St. Paul’s exhortation for women to be modestly attired - “…women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel” (I Tim. 2: 9). Man does not change as far as his sinful tendencies are concerned from one generation to the next and thus if women had to adorn themselves modestly in seemly apparel in St. Paul’s day then the requirement to do so in our own day is surely not any less so.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
It is all a question, dear sister, of dressing with good taste and decency, so as not to transgress the boundaries of propriety. Provided that a woman is guided by a well-formed conscience, and does not take her cue from the debased culture around her, then her decision making respecting her attire will always be appropriate and in keeping with Catholic teaching regarding modest apparel. Thus, for example, a midi-skirt and top that does not give unseemly prominence to body shape/parts is perfectly decourous and surely a stark contrast to a mini-skirt worn with high-healed shoes and a skin-tight T-shirt, which is far too unbecoming for a woman professing religion…
Well said. You speak clearly and with a level charity I wish I had!
You appear to want to live in a time which has long passed. What you fail to see that even when women were fully covered up, acted demure etc, sin was rampant. One of those sins was in looking at women as lesser beings.
It appears you might be thinking that humanity is constantly progressing and improving. There is no warrant for such belief and it in fact runs counter to Christian thought. It is quite possible the world is steadily getting worse from a moral perspective despite the advances in technology.

It is indeed a sin to look at women as lesser beings. It is not a sin to recognizes significant differences between men and women that can lead to inequalities. It would also be dangerous to think the differences unimportant because God chose how to create us. It was not by accident that he made us man and woman.
I disagree with you you strongly. We cannot say we are better than animals, we are made in the image of God and then go on about how men are easily tempted and led to lust. That really is rather insulting to men and also giving a way out for those who want it. Yes, we fall. Rather than blame others, when we fall, we should stand,shake ourselves off and try harder.
I am a man and am in no way insulted by pointing out the particular weaknesses of men. I am not insulted because it seems so plainly true in both my experience and in what I hear from others. What I do find insulting is the popular culture which seems to make every accommodation for any claim of hardship except for the hardship of men who are provoked by immodest dress. We are told to just get over it.
 
Well said. You speak clearly and with a level charity I wish I had!
It appears you might be thinking that humanity is constantly progressing and improving. There is no warrant for such belief and it in fact runs counter to Christian thought. It is quite possible the world is steadily getting worse from a moral perspective despite the advances in technology.
Well, some men would find that insulting then. Every adult of sound mind should take responsibility for his thoughts, words and deeds
 
Dear severus68,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope you are keeping well.

It is all a question, dear sister, of dressing with good taste and decency, so as not to transgress the boundaries of propriety. Provided that a woman is guided by a well-formed conscience, and does not take her cue from the debased culture around her, then her decision making respecting her attire will always be appropriate and in keeping with Catholic teaching regarding modest apparel. Thus, for example, a midi-skirt and top that does not give unseemly prominence to body shape/parts is perfectly decourous and surely a stark contrast to a mini-skirt worn with high-healed shoes and a skin-tight T-shirt, which is far too unbecoming for a woman professing religion.

To argue from thefalse premise, as many modern day Catholics do,that the only standard of modesty to be followed is what is appropriate for the time and place in our culture, reveals a monumental failure to think with an authentic Catholic mind. More, it reveals a mind that has become thoroughly imbued with moral relativistism where there are virtually no absolutes as regards clothing choices.

As to the whole issue of swimwear, there is no valid reason as to why these should somehow be exempt from moral considerations. Thus questions concerning modest and immodest attire continue to be highly relevant. A devout Catholic will surely ask whether sports or swimwear is more unduly revealing than it ought to be for its particular function. Whilst one must have a reduction in the ammount of clothing for the purposes of swimming and atheletics, it hardly seems necessary that such attire should be very tight-fitting and expose an inordinate ammount of flesh. To don a bikini is tantamount to wearing your underwear in public and it matters not whether the context is the beach or the local swimming pool, for the men who are present at these places do not somehow become immune to concupisence. The faithful must be realistic regarding the human condition and man’s very wounded nature on account of Original Sin. This is why our Church and Sacred Scripture exhort us to dress modestly and resist prevailing ideologies.

Therefore, dear friend, whether it is sportswear or bathing costumes, a Catholic must understand that because chastity is an absolute value, it is never permitted, irrespective of the setting or the prevailing cultural norms, to stimulate the base sexual passions in a member of the opposite sex (other than one’s marital spouse).

In view of the prevailing decadent Western culture today, perhaps it might well be advisable for a respectable Catholic man or woman to avoid such places as the beech. You will inevitably be surrounded by multitudes of both sexes who care very little respecting modesty issues and who have no inhibitions about flaunting their body parts to the gaze of complete strangers. In short they reveal that they are devoid of any moral sense and of God’s demands for being clad in “seemly apparel” (I Tim. 2: 9).

God bless, dear friend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
Pax
In a sport such as gymnastics, it is absolutely necessary that the clothing be minimal and skin-tight. Loose-fitting clothing would be extremely dangerous to practice the sport in, as it can not only get caught on equipment, but it makes the gymnast less aerodynamic.

On top of these facts, part of the artistry of a sport such as gymnastics is the chiseled body of the gymnast him/herself. The Olympic gymnast has honed themselves into what is essentially a living sculpture, and much of the beauty of the sport is derived from watching the musculature and beauty of the body.

Gymnasts actually have a spray that they use on their bottoms to make their leotards stick in place for modesty purposes.

To say that there is something perverted or immodest about these people is to find perversion and immodesty in Michelangelo’s David or in the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Actually, those would be more immodest because their nudity is far from necessary.

If some sick freak watching 14 year old gymnasts perform is actually going to then run off and masturbate as a result, well then the blame rests ENTIRELY on his shoulders.

As for volleyball players, have you seen the dives they take in the sand? Can you imagine the chafing that would result if someone crammed a bucket of sand down your one-piece and then forced you to say, run 10 miles? They wear sports bras and bikini bottoms because when they play, sand literally gets EVERYWHERE and these “bikinis” are again, the right uniform for the job.

Women cannot be forced to pander to every sexual perversion out there by smearing their faces with ashes, shaving their heads, and covering themselves from head to toe in sackcloth.

The fact that you would even suggest some of the things you have says MUCH more about yourself and how you view women than it does about these athletes or your average jeans-wearing housewife.
 
Dear severus68,

Not everything associated with previous generations is necessarily worthless or irrelevant. Many liberal freethinkers talk much of man coming of age and outgrowing the prissy Victorian morality of yesteryear, but informed Catholics know that that is downright pagan arrogance and treat such ignorance with the contempt that it quite rightly deserves.

As long as man has a wounded nature with which to contend, dear friend, sin will be rampant, but by men seeking to have custody of their eyes and women dressing in a seemly manner that befits their profession of religion, both sexes can perhaps help in making it less rampant. Surely, this, and protecting chastity, was what led to St. Paul’s exhortation for women to be modestly attired - “…women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel” (I Tim. 2: 9). Man does not change as far as his sinful tendencies are concerned from one generation to the next and thus if women had to adorn themselves modestly in seemly apparel in St. Paul’s day then the requirement to do so in our own day is surely not any less so.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

If man does not change – it is because your “authentic” view of men and women – impedes man from changing. It serves to corrupt the mind – and you pass this rot to the younger generations.
 
The stomach is a private area of the body that should be respectfully kept covered in public, for there is no legitimate reason why it ever needs to be revealed to strangers. Eating choclate truffles is clearly not an act of immodesty and hence not sinful, though eating them to excess would be gluttonous. Therefore the two things are hardly parallel as far as the present debate is concerned.
You miss the point – your argument was that the stomach need not be shown. This does not make showing it immodest because you have not established that anything that need not be shown being shown is immodest. This is absurd when one takes a position on any other issue – such as chocolate. It is parallel because you have not created a difference by explaining why necessity applies to modesty but not to eating, for example. Similarly, no woman needs to show her ankles, but doing so is hardly immodest. There is a more direct example.

Instead of focusing on examples in your response, however, please focus on establishing why it matters that the stomach being shown is immodest because it is not necessary to show it.
unseemly prominence to our body shape/parts and exposes an immoderate amount of flesh, as a bikini, mini-skirt or tightly-fitting jeans most decidedly do, then we can say with certainty that that item of clothing is immodest and offensive.
What is “unseemly prominence?” What is “an immoderate amount of flesh?” Give me a standard that I can apply to other clothing. Assume I am a robot that needs concrete criteria to apply in order to make a judgment.
The natural physical weakness of women is plainly taughty in Sacred Scripture (I Pet. 3: 7) and that is not sommething that changes with the passage of time.
The scripture says nothing about the physical weakness. Furthermore, the passage should be read in context – it is not necessarily asserting a “natural physical weakness” or a natural weakness of any kind that remains immutable.
Moreover, St. Paul gives as one reason for refusing the vocation of a priest to a woman, the fact that she is more inclined to be deceived ( see I Tim. 2: 13,14) Thus there is an inherent weakness of will in a women that can make her vulnerable to being sexually expoited by men.
Those statements do not follow. Have you had any training in rhetoric? The problems are myriad:
  1. St. Paul is not infallible, and his reasons are not infallible
  2. If they are inherently weaker in this regard currently, science would have/at some point will confirm this on a psychological level
  3. It is not a necessity that the situation remain unchanged
  4. The passage has nothing to do with your subsequent statement
Surely the whole purpose of tightly-fitting jeans, and, indeed, all skin-tight articles of clothing is to accentuate body parts and make the wearer of such indecent attire appear sexually provocative.
Surely not – simply stating that it is “certainly” the case is unconvincing for obvious reasons. I am not in a position to judge the motives of every person who wears tight jeans. Are you?
 
In a sport such as gymnastics, it is absolutely necessary that the clothing be minimal and skin-tight. Loose-fitting clothing would be extremely dangerous to practice the sport in, as it can not only get caught on equipment, but it makes the gymnast less aerodynamic.
Gymnast men wear less revealing clothing than the women. So it is not absolutely necessary.
To say that there is something perverted or immodest about these people is to find perversion and immodesty in Michelangelo’s David or in the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Actually, those would be more immodest because their nudity is far from necessary.
The fact that it is a piece of art makes it different. When an actual person is so displayed things are different.
If some sick freak watching 14 year old gymnasts perform is actually going to then run off and masturbate as a result, well then the blame rests ENTIRELY on his shoulders.
I dont think that is entirely accurate for Christians. We have a duty to not encourage others to sin. I’m not saying that we can never do anything that might cause another person to sin. But at the same time I do not think we can dismiss the idea of being modest for the sake of others.
As for volleyball players, have you seen the dives they take in the sand? Can you imagine the chafing that would result if someone crammed a bucket of sand down your one-piece and then forced you to say, run 10 miles? They wear sports bras and bikini bottoms because when they play, sand literally gets EVERYWHERE and these “bikinis” are again, the right uniform for the job.
Again the men do not have to wear such revealing clothing. If it was a true necessity of the sport then the men would be equally revealing.
Women cannot be forced to pander to every sexual perversion out there by smearing their faces with ashes, shaving their heads, and covering themselves from head to toe in sackcloth.

The fact that you would even suggest some of the things you have says MUCH more about yourself and how you view women than it does about these athletes or your average jeans-wearing housewife.
No one has said women must do that.

If you dont think men are aroused by scantily clad women can you explain to me why Sports Illustrated has a swimsuit edition and not a ball gown edition?

Do you believe we should be modest? If so, why? And how do you determine modest? I see a lot of rejections of what other people say is immodest but no explanation for how we determine that something is modest in the first place. And I notice that those who reject claims of modest seem to simply accept the current fashion without any justification for so doing. If modesty is just whatever our culture defines it as then we are being cultural relativists.
 
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exnihilo:
Do you believe we should be modest? If so, why? And how do you determine modest? I see a lot of rejections of what other people say is immodest but no explanation for how we determine that something is modest in the first place. And I notice that those who reject claims of modest seem to simply accept the current fashion without any justification for so doing. If modesty is just whatever our culture defines it as then we are being cultural relativists.
Seriously? I will forward my own:
  1. Take a poll of men asking what they consider to be most arousing in terms of clothing choices and body parts
  2. Do a scientific study (involving neurological reactions to clothing choices and body parts) that can be used in conjunction with 1)
  3. Analyze the results of 1) and 2) and determine appropriate cutoffs – e.g. 50% of men feel that X is sexual arousing, or X is in the top 10 most arousing body parts/clothing/whatever
  4. Introduce subjective criteria as necessary – for example, what is reasonably convenient for woman to do (covering their entire bodies probably would not be practical, for example).
This seems far, far superior to any non-scientific method. It has the additional advantage of confirming what a well-formed conscience is, given that natural law supports consciences anyway, and clearly reactions by men would fit into a natural law argument anyway. Furthermore, it addresses the issue head-on: modesty has been claimed in this thread to be important at least partially because of the effect of immodesty on men.
 
What defines knowledge or reasonable expectation? Should a study come out stating that 5% males are aroused by a woman’s stomach, would covering the stomach be necessary? What about 10%? 2%? 0%?

If a study should come out saying that as many men are aroused by a woman’s face as by her breasts, are women morally obligated to cover their faces?

How are shoulders “reasonably expected” to cause arousal? Should I be worried about an onslaught of shoulder fetishists, or am I missing something about them that makes them titillating?
Dear Baelor,

Hello again and thankyou for the above.

For the Catholic, my dear friend, knowledge and reasonable expectation are determined by using what we know of the human condition as a consequence of man’s fallen estate. Moreover, our experience of life only serves to reinforce and verify the conclusions of theology.

Studies can be used to prove all manner of things and so we should not place any undue credence upon them, much better to consult the consistent teaching of the Church and its moral theology. We know that men have a fallen nature and are accordingly inclined to wrongdoing of one sort or another, thus it makes good sense to avoid all the occasions of sin. Now as far as the issue of modesty is concerned, it is one thing for a woman to make herself attractive, but it is quite another to make herself deliberately seductive. Believe me, dear friend, women do know the difference and so do we chaps. The good moral sense of the faithful has always held it to be wrong and jolly uncharitable for a woman to so dress as to incite lust in members of the opposite sex by indecorous clothing choices, remember the reference from Killgallon and Weber (# 32) earlier in the thread.

As previously stated, owing to the Fall, man is subject to concupiscence or evil desire and therefore the sight of scantily clad women is likely to stimulate his baser passions, which could result in mortal sin. True, I freely admit that our Church has not mandated any one choice of clothing for men and women, but that is not the point, for the Church expects the faithful to employ their sanctified common sense to determine which particular garments violate standards of good taste and decency and which are perfectly acceptable. It is only a sort of legalistic Evangelicalism that desires to be spoon fed as to which garments specifically fail to comply with modesty and which trespass the bounds of propriety. Thus, for example, a few generations ago very few Catholics, if any, would have sought to defend wearing a bikini or a tarty garment like and min-skirt. Thus there appears to have been a complete loss of moral sense among many, but by no means all, modern Catholics who have become conformed to the immoral culture in their midst, instead of seeking to transform it by offering a vibrant Christian counter-culture that dares to be different and not follow the multitudes in their sinful ways and fashions.

No, my dear brother, it is a well-formed conscience, not “scientific studies”, that should be our criterion, steering us away from manifestly seductive style attire, which causes others to view us as little more than an assemblege of body parts. Women dressing in modest apparel helps counteract the strength of concupiscence and neutralize its virulent effects. This, coupled with men striving to keep their base passions in subjection, will necessarily result in less emphasis upon the body, thus putting a check on the sexualisation of our culture. Can that really be such a terrible thing?

When we approach this whole issue from the sane and objective perspective of Catholic theology, especially as it relates to Original Sin and its dire consequences, then we are unlikely to fall into erroneous and relativistic thinking concerning immodest vesture. Born as we are with a wounded nature disposed towards sin, we must needs ensure that we keep our bodies well-covered, so as not to unnecessarily excite impurity in others. This, I realize, may not chime with secular femenism, but the fact is that when a woman dons immodest attire, she ipso facto becomes a temptress for men and forgets, as someone has aptly remarked, that she is the “guardian of chastity for the world”. Let us look at our dear Lord’s words to those who fall prey to impurity of thought: “But I say to you that everyone who looks on a woman lustfully has already commited adultery with her in his heart” (S. Matt. 5: 28). Indirectly at least, immodestly attired women are included in this indictment, being co-operators as it were in the sins of men. God has certainly made women beautiful and attactive to men so as to fit with his plan of procreation and holy wedlock, nothing bad about that. Unfortunately, however, because of his fallen estate, man must unceasingly struggle to regulate his* a**ttraction* by keeping his baser instincts under control. Now it is manifestly obvious, given all this, that unless men and women take positive steps to reduce the strength of concupiscence, sin will swiftly enter their souls and defile them. Men and women owe it to each other as brethren in Christ to be co-operators in avoiding sin by being decently clothed. How, in all honesty, will a bikini, mini-skirt, tightly-fitting garments that emphasize body shape/parts, unseemly exposure of the shoulders, help towards this end, my dear chap?

By wearing inappropriate indecorous clothing or being scantily clad, men and women are communicating much about their moral standards, or rather lack of them, and we are entitled to censure those deplorable violations of good taste and decency in the strongest terms, as Catholics have always done, since they are degrading and an affront to our all Holy God.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Most threads on CAF stray far off topic unless the OP comes back and responds frequently. Sometimes, even then, some posters just seem to want to turn ever thread into a philosophical/dogmatic debate.

:rolleyes:
Once more, with feeling…

Not your thread! Start another one for this debate.
 
For the Catholic, my dear friend, knowledge and reasonable expectation are determined by using what we know of the human condition as a consequence of man’s fallen estate. Moreover, our experience of life only serves to reinforce and verify the conclusions of theology.
“Knowledge and reasonable expectation” are NOT determined by that criterion in any definitive Church teaching with which I am familiar.
Studies can be used to prove all manner of things and so we should not place any undue credence upon them, much better to consult the consistent teaching of the Church and its moral theology.
Its moral theology does not include the level of specificity necessary, and the Church does not disagree with science anyway, so the studies would do nothing but confirm the consistent teaching of the Church anyway.
It is only a sort of legalistic Evangelicalism that desires to be spoon fed as to which garments specifically fail to comply with modesty and which trespass the bounds of propriety.
And a different brand of non-Catholicism would advocate a rejection of scientific inquiry on the matter, given that the realm – neurological reactions to particular garments – falls squarely within the scientific realm as well. It is not Evangelical or anything other than Catholic to advocate criteria by which something can be determined.
No, my dear brother, it is a well-formed conscience, not “scientific studies”, that should be our criterion, steering us away from manifestly seductive style attire, which causes others to view us as little more than an assemblege of body parts.
They should be identical, and it is much easier to determine scientific reality than to determine which of ten persons all saying something different has the truly well-formed conscience.
 
Gymnast men wear less revealing clothing than the women. So it is not absolutely necessary.

The fact that it is a piece of art makes it different. When an actual person is so displayed things are different.

I dont think that is entirely accurate for Christians. We have a duty to not encourage others to sin. I’m not saying that we can never do anything that might cause another person to sin. But at the same time I do not think we can dismiss the idea of being modest for the sake of others.

Again the men do not have to wear such revealing clothing. If it was a true necessity of the sport then the men would be equally revealing.

No one has said women must do that.

If you dont think men are aroused by scantily clad women can you explain to me why Sports Illustrated has a swimsuit edition and not a ball gown edition?

Do you believe we should be modest? If so, why? And how do you determine modest? I see a lot of rejections of what other people say is immodest but no explanation for how we determine that something is modest in the first place. And I notice that those who reject claims of modest seem to simply accept the current fashion without any justification for so doing. If modesty is just whatever our culture defines it as then we are being cultural relativists.
Dear exnihilo,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Jolly well spoken, my dear brother.

What we are witnessing today across the denominational divide is an assimilation of the debased standards of the godless culture by multitudes of Christian people, possibly on an unprecedented scale. Be that as it may, so very many, alas, have allowed themselves to be polluted by the distracting demoralizing influences that now abound everywhere, and this applies to the whole issue of clothing choices and indecorous fashions.

Yes, I think many professing Christians have sadly become “cultural relativists”, even if they are in denial regarding this.

Thankyou for your (name removed by moderator)ut to the discussion, dear friend, it is much appreciated.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

Pax
 
Gymnast men wear less revealing clothing than the women. So it is not absolutely necessary.

The fact that it is a piece of art makes it different. When an actual person is so displayed things are different.

I dont think that is entirely accurate for Christians. We have a duty to not encourage others to sin. I’m not saying that we can never do anything that might cause another person to sin. But at the same time I do not think we can dismiss the idea of being modest for the sake of others.

Again the men do not have to wear such revealing clothing. If it was a true necessity of the sport then the men would be equally revealing.

No one has said women must do that.

If you dont think men are aroused by scantily clad women can you explain to me why Sports Illustrated has a swimsuit edition and not a ball gown edition?

Do you believe we should be modest? If so, why? And how do you determine modest? I see a lot of rejections of what other people say is immodest but no explanation for how we determine that something is modest in the first place. And I notice that those who reject claims of modest seem to simply accept the current fashion without any justification for so doing. If modesty is just whatever our culture defines it as then we are being cultural relativists.
Male gymnasts compete in different events than women and their uniforms are different as a result. For example, men generally wear pants with stirrups and socks to preven them from riding up. For those men who would prefer to have bare feet, they compete in very short shorts. It would be extremely difficult and quite dangerous for a woman to compete on the balance beam in socks and pants without slipping off. Also, women compete in long sleeves, whereas men compete in tank tops. The musculature of the men’s arms is a part of the artistry of the sport, and this, their arms are prominently displayed. For women, the musculature of the legs is a part of the artistry of the sport.

You say that Michelangelo’s sculptures are works of art and so modesty is unnecessary? So you are now the arbiter of what constitutes art? (FYI, it is called ARTISTIC gymnastics for a reason). So if it’s a static sculpture or a painting, a man or woman can just lay there with all of their business hanging out (on the ceiling of a church, no less!), but a girl is not permitted to show far less than that as an expression of living art (art created by the hand of God- Michelangelo was good, but not THAT good!)?

Would you say then that there is no sin in an artist painting and displaying a nude person, but that the model for said work of art was immodest and therefore sinning?

Also, the men in beach volleyball are shirtless or wear very loose-fitting tank tops for comfort and to keep the sand out of their clothes. If a woman either went shirtless or wore such loose tank tops, they would hardly be less revealing than a bikini. I assume you would have a problem with that as well.

I’m guessing what makes the Sports Illistrated swimsuit edition sexy is the fact that the women are soaking wet and writhing around in the sand on their hands and knees orgasmically with “come hither” looks on their faces, not the bikinis themselves. When I go to the beach in my bikini, I try not to do that-I’m usually too busy building sand castles with my kids.
 
Guys, please stop. The OP hasn’t been back to this thread since it veered OT. Take this to the Philosophy forum and stop littering this thread with your intellectual badminton game.
 
“Knowledge and reasonable expectation” are NOT determined by that criterion in any definitive Church teaching with which I am familiar.

Its moral theology does not include the level of specificity necessary, and the Church does not disagree with science anyway, so the studies would do nothing but confirm the consistent teaching of the Church anyway.

And a different brand of non-Catholicism would advocate a rejection of scientific inquiry on the matter, given that the realm – neurological reactions to particular garments – falls squarely within the scientific realm as well. It is not Evangelical or anything other than Catholic to advocate criteria by which something can be determined.

They should be identical, and it is much easier to determine scientific reality than to determine which of ten persons all saying something different has the truly well-formed conscience.
Dear Baelor,

Cordial greetings and thankyou again for your responses.

The Church would pre-suppose knowledge and reasonable expectation, it is, after all, reasonable expectation of which we speak, dear friend, and not some complex hypothesis. Authoritative Church teaching is surely not required for something so very elementary. Thus we know from our fallen estate and experience, that the sight of scantily clad women will excite our baser instincts - that is a basic and reasonable expectation, given our fallen human condition and the presence of evil desire.

Authentic Catholic moral theology can be wholly relied upon and will never lead a man astray, whilst scientific studies will only verify the veracity of theology, provided they are not biased and there is no liberal agenda at work, of course. Studies will harmonise and be ‘identical’, but only if they are truly genuine and not secular propaganda.

BTW, Baelor, have you had a perusal, by any chance, of Chastity.Com, here at Catholic Answers? They actually have an interesting article regarding whether it is acceptable for a woman to wear a bikini. It actually does discuss some ‘scientific studies’ that you might find helpful. Click on to Q & A and then scroll down to ‘How Far is Too Far’ and then go to the ‘Modesty’ section. There you will find referenced some genuine studies that really do confirm Catholic theology and the fallen condition of man.

God bless and goodbye for now, dear brother.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
The Church would pre-suppose knowledge and reasonable expectation, it is, after all, reasonable expectation of which we speak, dear friend, and not some complex hypothesis.
My knowledge and reasonable expectation clearly differ from yours. Yours are unreasonable. See? I can make statements that have no independently objective basis too. That does not make them useful or productive.
Authoritative Church teaching is surely not required for something so very elementary. Thus we know from our fallen estate and experience, that the sight of scantily clad women will excite our baser instincts - that is a basic and reasonable expectation, given our fallen human condition and the presence of evil desire.
But you are delving into specifics on the same basis in a way that is scientifically verifiable. Reason in this case is no substitute for science. The following chain of arguments:
  1. Modesty is good at least partly because it avoids sexual temptation.
  2. Stomachs are sexually tempting.
Therefore stomachs should be covered

is dependent on morality exclusively for 1), but scientific and quantifiable reality exclusively for 2).

If stomachs should be covered, science will reveal this fact as well. Reason and well-formed consciences do not make us mind-readers, and your continual suggestion that they do only makes you less and less credible over time.
Authentic Catholic moral theology can be wholly relied upon and will never lead a man astray, whilst scientific studies will only verify the veracity of theology, provided they are not biased and there is no liberal agenda at work, of course.
And theology in this case does not explicitly extend to which garments may be worn and which may not be, hence the necessity for scientific analysis because you are making a scientific argument.

Your entire argument is based on the premise that particular garments are immodest because they are seductive and lead men into sin. “Lead men into sin” is a scientific question, not a theological one. If that is your argument, then you would not be opposed to determining precisely which garments lead men into sin. If you refuse to accept this, then you must find an alternative criterion for and explanation of modesty, one that severs the connection between sexual temptation of men and modesty.
BTW, Baelor, have you had a perusal, by any chance, of Chastity.Com, here at Catholic Answers? They actually have an interesting article regarding whether it is acceptable for a woman to wear a bikini. It actually does discuss some ‘scientific studies’ that you might find helpful. Click on to Q & A and then scroll down to ‘How Far is Too Far’ and then go to the ‘Modesty’ section. There you will find referenced some genuine studies that really do confirm Catholic theology and the fallen condition of man.
Good! This is exactly what is needed. Except for all the garments.
 
Guys, please stop. The OP hasn’t been back to this thread since it veered OT. Take this to the Philosophy forum and stop littering this thread with your intellectual badminton game.
Again, your discussion has taken this thread off topic. Please, start another thread of your own. I am going to keep repeating this until you stop.

:mad:
 
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