D
devoutchristian
Guest
Telling him that it’d basically be ok if he became a heretic isn’t proselytizing?
- Status
W
WingsOfEagles
Guest
That’s not what I’m saying. He is not a heretic if forced to attend a church that is against his will. He is a minor and may have little control over which church he attends. He hasn’t accepted their doctrine just because he is forced to go there. Perhaps, it’s been a while since you were in HS, but often when you are under your parents roof, you only have so much control. I know I didn’t have access to a car until I was 18. The Catholic Church was in the next town over. If my parents hadn’t been Catholic, it would not have been possible for me to attend the Catholic Church against their will.
What I am saying, will not be in mortal sin for not meeting his weekly Mass requirement if it is due to the fault of his mother and not his own will.
D
devoutchristian
Guest
We were discussing the matter of leaving the Catholic Church, so I assumed that you were still talking about that.
F
Filii_Dei
Guest
I understand the good intentions behind your post, but we should refrain from pronouncing such judgements in these delicate situations. We are only laypeople, not priests, religious, or spiritual directors. While we may know the three conditions of mortal sin, in practice, differentiating mortal sin from venial sin is a difficult business that calls upon all the theological knowledge and pastoral skills of the individual, especially when judging conditions two (committed with full knowledge) and three (committed with deliberate and complete consent). Very few of us on this forum carry this kind of magisterial or pastoral authority of the Church.
Further to that, while mortal sin is rightly abhorrent and avoided, it does not mean that venial sin is necessarily “better”. Its damage to our spiritual well-being may be less, but it does not make it a preferable alternative. The only preferable alternative is not to sin at all. Therein lies the crux of BVMFatima’s dilemma.
W
WingsOfEagles
Guest
I stand by what I wrote. If we take OP at his word, this is clearly a “not with full consent” situation. Let’s be clear that the advice given to an adult should be much different than that given to a 16 year old living under his mother’s roof. Yes, it is fine for him to try and convince her that he’d rather attend a Catholic Church than a non-denominational, but most parents do still wield quite a bit of power over their teens (esp. if that teen does not drive yet-which we don’t know for sure). I would argue that you don’t even commit venial sin if the situation is completely out of your control.I understand the good intentions behind your post, but we should refrain from pronouncing such judgements in these delicate situations. We are only laypeople, not priests, religious, or spiritual directors. While we may know the three conditions of mortal sin, in practice, differentiating mortal sin from venial sin is a difficult business that calls upon all the theological knowledge and pastoral skills of the individual, especially when judging conditions two (committed with full knowledge) and three (committed with deliberate and complete consent). Very few of us on this forum carry this kind of magisterial or pastoral authority of the Church.
Further to that, while mortal sin is rightly abhorrent and avoided, it does not mean that venial sin is necessarily “better”. Its damage to our spiritual well-being may be less, but it does not make it a preferable alternative. The only preferable alternative is not to sin at all. Therein lies the crux of BVMFatima’s dilemma.
R
rcwitness
Guest
D
devoutchristian
Guest
If he can get there then the obligation stands, one doesn’t need to have control over every aspect of the situation to commit mortal sin, rather one needs to give complete consent to the sinful act. Why we’re still discussing this when he said that he is lowed to go to Mass, I don’t know.
W
WingsOfEagles
Guest
They do need to have control over the aspect that allows them to physically get to Mass, which as you stated sound like it is possible at this point in time.
D
devoutchristian
Guest
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm
Condemned error #18
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm
Catechism #845
D
devoutchristian
Guest
Yes, but it is possible for one to be physically capable of getting to Mass and at the same time be “prohibited”.
R
rcwitness
Guest
I have not seen it in those. If anything, I see the support of the saving plan of God to those religions that recognize the one true God, even Muslims! So, as long as they are not labeled a cult by the Church, they are considered part of Her. And this particular church may have a valid Baptism.
But, like you are saying, he is now Catholic. So, there are obligations. But this church should not be assumed to be “outside” the Catholic faith. Maybe it is, we don’t know a whole lot. We agree he should talk to his pastor (Catholic). But it is not neccessary to say he would be in mortal sin to miss Mass under the circumstances given. At this point there does not need to be either obeying God OR obeying his mother.
Michael
D
devoutchristian
Guest
Look, I don’t have time to argue the basics of Catholic ecclesiology and soteriology with you. You only need to do a minimum amount of studying to find out that Protestant communities are non-Catholic.
C
constantconvert
Guest
Non-Catholic is not the same as non-salvific. It is true that there is no salvation outside the Church for Catholics, but if you have not come into the fullness of the church, you can still be saved if you are Protestant. Many if not most protestant churches are in agreement with us on the tenants of the Apostles and Nicene creeds. They are part of the Body of Christ-- Christians.
D
devoutchristian
Guest
As I said I’m not going to spend my time arguing the very basics of Catholic ecclesiology and soteriology with other Catholics.
F
fbl9
Guest
And neither does your mother hold any right to force her beliefs unto you.Hello,
Sadly today I had a discussion with her where she is trying to get me to go to my GrandMothers Church and go to youth group. Now I told her that I don’t want to because its not Catholic and she said " its only about Jesus, not Religion!" (This is a non denom Church). I told her that I would never give up the faith for such heretics that I would die for the faith, she said I am taking it too far and that I became a radical extremist fundimentalist. Now she is having me leave the Church.I don’t know what to do anymore. **She said I have no right to share my religious beliefs with others **and convert them to the Church. She is now having me leave Catholicism. I’m just so depressed now.
Thank you everyone for all your help in giving me advice for how to increase my faith. May God Bless you all.
BVMFatima
M
Marie5890
Guest
Cant be stressed enough. He is a minor. He needs to discuss this with his pastor, NOT ONLINE WITH PEOPLE WHO DONT KNOW HIM PERSONALLY
This is a FAMILY MATTER! We know nothing of this family dynamics. We know nothing of what kind of challenges this family faces. We know nothing of the mental health of any of the people involved. Is there ADD present? Is there OCD present? Is there ADHD present?
We dont know.
The wisest, most prudent advice is this: he needs to talk to his pastor who knows him personally. Someone who knows what is reality and what is not.
The internet, in this case, is NOT the place to seek advice. Not by a long shot.
F
Filii_Dei
Guest
I second this.
M
Monica4316
Guest
Hi,Hello,
Sadly today I had a discussion with her where she is trying to get me to go to my GrandMothers Church and go to youth group. Now I told her that I don’t want to because its not Catholic and she said " its only about Jesus, not Religion!" (This is a non denom Church). I told her that I would never give up the faith for such heretics that I would die for the faith, she said I am taking it too far and that I became a radical extremist fundimentalist. Now she is having me leave the Church.
Thank you everyone for all your help in giving me advice for how to increase my faith. May God Bless you all.
BVMFatima
I’m sure this is very difficult for you
of course, we can’t leave the Catholic Church. I think it might be best to avoid saying things like Protestants are heretics and you would die for the faith, - simply because this might close your mom up more to you being Catholic. I speak from experience on this my family is non Catholic and sometimes I said things that maybe were harder to understand and pushed them away a little try to not argue, but also stay Catholic. Try to address your mom’s particular concerns. I don’t know your mom, so I can’t say what would work, but for example: if your mom says that it’s “all about Jesus, not religion”, you can say “I understand what you are saying mom, but to me the Catholic Church is not just a religion, to me it’s important to be Catholic because I believe I can receive the Sacraments there and Protestants don’t believe in it the same way. It’s important to me to worship in a community that believes the same things that I do. Even though both Protestants and Catholics believe in Jesus, but they do have differences in their theology and beliefs, and it would be difficult for me to attend a Protestant church and I wouldn’t feel comfortable with this”. Maybe something along those lines would be more understandable to your mom try to avoid saying anything emotional, even if it’s true, - because the other person might not understand it. I’m still learning about this but this is what i’ve noticed with my family. Try to talk from where the person is at. It might also help for you to pray and offer sacrifices for your mom’s conversion if she’s not open to it when you talk to her about it - maybe avoid speaking with her about it until she’s more open. You know how it happens - before we plant the seed, we need to water the ground, - in a similar way if we pray for a person to be open and then talk to them when God leads us to it - that is better than just jumping in and talking to them cause they might not be ready.Maybe it could help you to speak to a good priest as well?
God bless you!
M
Monica4316
Guest
Maybe it could help you to read about the Saints… I think there was a Saint - he had a religious vocation and others didn’t agree with it, so they locked him in a tower and tried to get a woman to come there and tempt him - of course nothing happened, but his witness was no doubt helpful to the woman and to the others to help them see that his vocation is for real. Also St Catherine of Siena - her family wanted her to marry and she made a vow of virginity, - and since she didn’t agree to marry, they made her be like a servant in the house and laughed at her and - despite all that, she was always very kind to them and charitable and patient. She said that she tried to treat them as Jesus and Mary and the Saints. Maybe try something similar, if your mom grounds you for being Catholic, just treat her with love and kindly, as you would treat Mother Mary, and pray, and eventually she might see. In any case, this cant last forever, since you’ll be older and might move out to college or work etc. I know this must be very painful for you but don’t abandon Jesus and His Church and the Sacraments! even if you are forced to not go to church, it wouldn’t be your choice to not go, it’s better to stay home and pray and read the Scriptures than go to a non Catholic place of worship, if you can’t get to a Catholic church. If someone is forced to attend a non Catholic service, I was told that they should just observe, not participate.
A
april32010
Guest
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping: :clapping: :yup:- Status