My mother thinks it is ok to have an abortion

[jujubee]

Just for context, I am 38 and she is 60. This came up in the midst of our conversation involving the election and also my rather unorthodox adult Confirmation teacher who seems to be in love with “the spirit of Vatican II.” I was sharing my concerns over the common situations where there is clear Catholic teaching and yet a disregard for the teachings while appealing to using your “conscience.”

Our first point of disagreement centered on whether or not the baby is a life. She’s not sure and also says she is not sure if that really matters. I pointed out that if you actually DO believe it is a life then to go and kill that life would be intentional and murder. She resisted that idea. She also said that if she were raped and got pregnant she would definitely have an abortion even if she believed it was a life because it would be too difficult and unfair to her to have to carry the child.

It did occur to me to consider whether or not something like this did ever happen in her past (which would explain her thinking now). I honestly don’t think that is the situation here so for the sake of conversation in this thread let’s assume not. Obviously I would go about this differently if that were the case.

I just want to know how you would go through this conversation with a mother with whom you are very close. The conversation only ended because my son had to be picked up from school, but in my family we have lots of lively discussions that continue over time, so we’ll inevitably get back to this soon.

What do you all think?

 

[teachccd]

Abortion is murder. What else needs to be said?

 

[jujubee]

Ok, yes. So then do I take it that what you are saying is just be straight and matter of fact and let it become a “discussion”?

I might add that her line of thinking is confusing because it is just so illogical. Then I’ll add that I am so sorry she believes that way and then end it. That will drive her nuts! (add childish snickering to myself)

 

[kristie_m]

Oh I am soooo feeling your pain! I’m right there with you. My mother, when I explained to her Obama’s votes against the Born Alive act, thought that that was perfectly okay. After all, she said, you have to consider what the quality of life would be like for that baby. So that makes it okay to let them die alone in a basket of soiled linens?

Of course this is the same woman who, when I tried to vent to her my frustration with finding a funeral home who would assist me in the burial of my pre-born daughter asked me “Who died?” Classy, mom. I told her, “I have a very small, but very REAL person inside of me, and I intend to bury my child!”

She replied, (in a tone that suggested that I was off my rocker) “well, that’s your choice, I guess.”

The other day, I was at the store and had a conversation with one of the employees who was singing the praises of Obama. I told him that any candidate who voted four times against the born alive act automatically disqualified himself in my book. After a little more discussioin, he said to me, his voice filled with disdain, “Oh, you’re one of those people who thinks babies ought to be born.”

It’s not often someone can leave me speechless, but that guy did. He didn’t even try to convince me that it wasn’t REALLY a baby…he just figured that some people ought to be killed in the womb. I guess a baby is only a person if the parents want it.

This is the kind of mentality we’re up against and it hurts so much when it’s your own family. Thank God for my church and for the pro-life movement!!!

But I see I haven’t answered your question. Well, Patrick Madrid had an interesting point. He suggested that you exchage the idea of it being legal to have abortions with it being legal to kill off a certain race. In essence, it’s the same thing. In fact, we should make it as EASY as possible to kill off the members of this race. Should that be legal? No, of course not. So why is it okay to kill millions of babies?

 

[yellowbicycle]

That’s a tough conversation.
My dad, who I always considered to be a man of faith and honor (I still do) admitted that if he thought me or my sister were going to have Down’s syndrome, he’s not sure he would have kept us.
I told him I bet he would have.
Your mother is not sure that what was growing in her womb was a LIFE? Really? I would ask her about her pregnancy - ask her if she remembers feeling you kick, or hearing your heartbeat (not sure how popular ultrasounds were at the time, but maybe she did have one and you could ask her about that).
And then ask her why she doubts that you were alive. I can tell you my aha moment came when I was pregnant and I was telling everyone about how pro-choice I was, and that it’s not a human. And then the baby kicked.
And I said ‘It’s just a clump of cells’
And then she kicked again.
'It’s not a human being.
Kick.
She made a liar out of me that day, that’s for sure.
You could also ask her if she thought you were a person the DAY before she gave birth to you. If she says yes, work backwards from there. What about the day before that? The week? The month? The only logical place to end up is at conception.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

I’m in the same boat. Only I’m 17 and my mother is in her 30s. She thinks “outside the bubble”, while I try to stay as logically general as possible.

“No on 4” is demeaning to all parents.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[thistle]

Ok, yes. So then do I take it that what you are saying is just be straight and matter of fact and let it become a “discussion”?

I might add that her line of thinking is confusing because it is just so illogical. Then I’ll add that I am so sorry she believes that way and then end it. That will drive her nuts! (add childish snickering to myself)

The 5th Commandment says you shall not kill.
In case that is not specific enough for your mother abortion is specifically mentioned in the teachings by the Apostles. The writing is called The Didache (written around 70AD to 100AD and is probably the earliest catechism). I quote one part of it:

Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, **you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. **You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.

 

[jujubee]

Thanks for the empathy and thank you for the quotes. She doesn’t have a problem acknowledging that the church teaches that abortion is murder. She just doesn’t think it matters if she disagrees. Yikes, I know.

So I went and dug out my oldest son’s first ultrasound picture. 7 weeks, 5 days. It is on the kitchen counter and when she and my son come home we are going to remember how cute he was back then. I don’t think I need to say anything more than that.

 

[Donna_Mc]

Oh I am soooo feeling your pain! I’m right there with you. My mother, when I explained to her Obama’s votes against the Born Alive act, thought that that was perfectly okay. After all, she said, you have to consider what the quality of life would be like for that baby. So that makes it okay to let them die alone in a basket of soiled linens?

Of course this is the same woman who, when I tried to vent to her my frustration with finding a funeral home who would assist me in the burial of my pre-born daughter asked me “Who died?” Classy, mom. I told her, “I have a very small, but very REAL person inside of me, and I intend to bury my child!”

She replied, (in a tone that suggested that I was off my rocker) “well, that’s your choice, I guess.”

The other day, I was at the store and had a conversation with one of the employees who was singing the praises of Obama. I told him that any candidate who voted four times against the born alive act automatically disqualified himself in my book. After a little more discussioin, he said to me, his voice filled with disdain, “Oh, you’re one of those people who thinks babies ought to be born.”

It’s not often someone can leave me speechless, but that guy did. He didn’t even try to convince me that it wasn’t REALLY a baby…he just figured that some people ought to be killed in the womb. I guess a baby is only a person if the parents want it.

This is the kind of mentality we’re up against and it hurts so much when it’s your own family. Thank God for my church and for the pro-life movement!!!

But I see I haven’t answered your question. Well, Patrick Madrid had an interesting point. He suggested that you exchage the idea of it being legal to have abortions with it being legal to kill off a certain race. In essence, it’s the same thing. In fact, we should make it as EASY as possible to kill off the members of this race. Should that be legal? No, of course not. So why is it okay to kill millions of babies?

Kristie, I just wanted to say that I am so sorry for your loss. God bless you and you can look foward to seeing your child in heaven!

 

[Kay_Cee]

You might want to read this: peterkreeft.com/topics-more/personhood.htm

Frankly, I don’t see any way around the quadrilemma in that article.

Hope this helps!

 

[Geremia]

Our first point of disagreement centered on whether or not the baby is a life. She’s not sure and also says she is not sure if that really matters. I pointed out that if you actually DO believe it is a life then to go and kill that life would be intentional and murder. She resisted that idea. She also said that if she were raped and got pregnant she would definitely have an abortion even if she believed it was a life because it would be too difficult and unfair to her to have to carry the child.

And how much more unjust it would be to kill an innocent child than to bring the child to term and offer him up for adoption, for example.

 

[Teelynn]

The Church is very clear on this. Abortion is wrong and a grave sin IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. Brings me back to this: Even though I believe many Bishops did a commendable job in speaking out against abortion and the importance for voting for pro life candidates, there were that many more that were mute on the issue, or worse, even chose to vote that way themselves in spite of what the Church officially teaches. Now, if we have clergy that are “soft” on this issue, the faithful that they are guiding have a much better chance of thinking in that direction as well. (We have been kicking this around in the Politics 2008 forum.)

This election brought into focus the sharp divisions in our Church, with much more crystal clearity. (sadly enough) We have a tough fight on our hands even within the Church of Christ.:sad_yes:

 

[hollyangel]

…After all, she said, you have to consider what the quality of life would be like for that baby. So that makes it okay to let them die alone in a basket of soiled linens?..

This is that slippery slope of people deciding that someone else’s “quality of life” won’t be good so it’s okay to kill them. I don’t want someone deciding that my quality of life isn’t good anymore and “helping me out” by ending my life.

…It’s not often someone can leave me speechless, but that guy did. He didn’t even try to convince me that it wasn’t REALLY a baby…he just figured that some people ought to be killed in the womb. I guess a baby is only a person if the parents want it…

This is absolutely terrible and very scary! Following his logic, people will want to kill their 2 year olds because of tantrums in public, or kill their teenagers because they’re being belligerent.
I’m reminded of the quote from someone on the Forums who wrote that the most dangerous place in America today is in the womb. Thank you to whoever wrote that - unfortunately it is SO true!