My name says it all

[fadingfaith]

hi everyone,

i was catholic most of my life and left the church 4 or 5 years ago. since that time i am just losing faith entirely. i used to believe it took more faith to be an atheist, and for quite a while i considered myself an agnostic, but i think i’m pretty much arriving at atheism at this point.

i’m not here to argue or convince anyone that my line of thinking is correct. i just want to discuss with someone these thoughts to see if they even really make sense.

i’m also not going to be very good at this message board thing since my day to day responsibilities probably wont enable me to spend long periods of time on here at once, but i am very interested in your thoughts and will read them and respond to them as time allows me to.

here goes:

i don’t think it can be proven that god exists. maybe faith is a gift, maybe it’s a choice, maybe it’s imagined. i don’t know how anyone could determine.

if god exists, how do i know which faith has the true god or gods?
how do we even know he has revealed himself?
if god is a supreme being then how can he expect us flawed little humans to know which version of god in this world is the right one?
if god is the judeo-christian god, then how do i know what to rely on as his revelation? the catholic church says we should rely on it and other christians say to look just at the bible yet they all differ in what they believe and do.

faith seems multifaceted. like i need more than just faith in god to have faith in god. i also need to have faith in myself (pride?) to believe i’d ever be capable of determining the answers to these questions. it seems to me more humble to admit that it can’t be determined at all and therefore unlikely that god even exists. and no offense, but if he does exists, it seems cruel that he would make it so difficult for someone to find him.

the biggest problem i see with atheism is morality. i have to admit that religious morals, and especially christian morals, lead me to believe faith is a good thing, but i really can’t prove that. i can’t prove christian morals are better just because they work for me. and i certainly can’t prove that good morals are the result of the existence of god when they could simply be the product of more thoughtful and meditative people. it reminds me of buddhism which is not a theistic religion and yet it has much of the same morality. they do meditate though which leads me to believe that if people would simply slow down and be more thoughtful we’d all live by the golden rule.

i look forward to discussing these things with you. more thoughts may come to mind, but this is probably more than enough for now.

thanks

 

[steve_b]

hi everyone,

i was catholic most of my life and left the church 4 or 5 years ago. since that time i am just losing faith entirely.

i used to believe it took more faith to be an atheist, and for quite a while i considered myself an agnostic, but i think i’m pretty much arriving at atheism at this point.

How long is quite awhile that you were agnostic?

Regarding atheism, and I suppose agnosticism can be included also, it might be good to reflect on why God inspired this statement to be made in sacred scripture.

Psalm 14

1 The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”

 

[PennitentMan]

Hi FadingFaith.

Looks like I’m the first one to reply. Granted, I’m coming at you from the other side of maybe who you intended might respond to you, but I have to say that I identify with you. I’ll answer your questions as respectfully as I can. 

I don’t think it can be proven that god exists. maybe faith is a gift, maybe it’s a choice, maybe it’s imagined. I don’t know how anyone could determine.

No, god cannot be proven. If it could, then everyone would have been Christians. Being a Christian does require faith. It requires a measure of faith that I also lost. The church teaches that faith is a gift from god…a grace from him, but I too lost my faith, slowly but steadily it diminished each day, no matter how hard I prayed for more faith, or tried to believe, it didn’t work.

If god exists, how do I know which faith has the true god or gods?

That’s a great question. It has to do with how much faith you place in the scripture. Christians believe that their god is the true god because they believe that the bible is His word. Same goes for Muslims because they believe that the Koran is the inspired word of Allah. Etc. None of the religions have any basis with which to prove these statements, it’s a matter of faith. “god speaks to you and convinces you”…I remain unconvinced…if there was one true god, then why are there still so many religions in the world? Why hasn’t he spoken to the Muslims, to the Buddhists, Krishnas, Mormons, and even protestants?
It all boils down to faith…how much faith do you place in the claim that their religion is the truth, that their scripture is the only true scripture

How do we even know he has revealed himself?

Again, only by scripture do they claim this, so you have to have faith in the scripture. Some people also claim that god still reveals himself to them, i.e. mormons believe that god’s revelation is not complete and that it’s still ongoing. Also there are many folks that claim private revelations, even in the catholic church. Fact is though that you only have their word for it.

If god is a supreme being then how can he expect us flawed little humans to know which version of god in this world is the right one?

Right you are. We never can, and it’s proven in how many religions and even denominations there are. We cannot and will not ever know for sure.

If god is the Judeo-Christian god, then how do I know what to rely on as his revelation? the catholic church says we should rely on it and other Christians say to look just at the bible yet they all differ in what they believe and do.

For Catholics it happens in two parts, scripture and Tradition (uppercase “T”). They believe that the scripture is the inspired and inerrant word of god, and they also believe that their Tradition are divine teachings direct from god, but that was never penned. Both of these form the basis of the catholic faith. You will have to have faith that a) the bible is the inspired and inerrant word of god and you will have to believe that b) their Tradition is the word of god, carried by word of mouth teachings until it was penned into the catechism and similar documents. How they claim that to be true is through apostolic succession. Word of Mouth

faith seems multifaceted. like I need more than just faith in god to have faith in god. I also need to have faith in myself (pride?) to believe I’d ever be capable of determining the answers to these questions. it seems to me more humble to admit that it can’t be determined at all and therefore unlikely that god even exists. and no offense, but if he does exists, it seems cruel that he would make it so difficult for someone to find him.

I had EXACTLY the same thoughts and struggles! Wow, it’s really amazing how similar my thoughts were. I was not granted the gift of faith….or, let me rephrase that, the gift was taken from me, and no matter how hard, or what I tried, I couldn’t increase my faith…not by relying on god nor by my own means. Like you said…you kinda need faith to get faith. I won’t talk about the “cruel” aspect you raised here.

More to follow….

 

[PennitentMan]

Continued.

the biggest problem I see with atheism is morality. I have to admit that religious morals, and especially Christian morals, lead me to believe faith is a good thing, but I really can’t prove that. I can’t prove Christian morals are better just because they work for me. and I certainly can’t prove that good morals are the result of the existence of god when they could simply be the product of more thoughtful and meditative people. it reminds me of Buddhism which is not a theistic religion and yet it has much of the same morality. they do meditate though which leads me to believe that if people would simply slow down and be more thoughtful we’d all live by the golden rule.

You are also correct on the moral scenario. The Christian morality is not the only good moral code, in fact it’s part of a universal moral code, we call the golden rule. It’s present in many religions and cultures. Christianity sums it up as “Do unto others…” Just because someone stops being a Christian doesn’t mean that he turns into an evil, sadistic, SOB. Atheists are good people…I daresay that there are some atheists that are better and more moral people that some Christians.
Atheism is not a complete world view, not like Christianity that is a complete world view with a set of moral codes. Atheism is just a term for a person’s conviction that there is no god. It’s also divided into weak atheism an strong atheism.
As far as morals are concerned, most of the atheists I speak to base their lives on mutual respect for humans, and a healthy respect for the law. Just because god is out of the equation, doesn’t mean I’m going to start killing people… I would have harmed a fellow human being and I’ll get arrested and thrown in jail.
I find “Atheist morality”, if I may call it that, more pure in a way…because I’m not doing something because someone commands me to, if I help someone or am kind to someone, it’s because I choose to, without any force or authority commanding me.

Well, I’m not sure if this info is what you were looking for, but that’s my thoughts on this matter.

Good luck in your journey!

 

[rick43235]

Regarding atheism, and I suppose agnosticism can be included also, it might be good to reflect on why God inspired this statement to be made in sacred scripture.

Psalm 14

1 The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”

You’re assuming that there is, in fact, a god to inspire that statement. Probably not the best place to start with someone who doubts that fact.

No, god cannot be proven. If it could, then everyone would have been Christians.

Assuming that the god who was proven to exist is, in fact, the God whom we as Christians worship.

 

[tobinatorstark]

hi everyone,

i was catholic most of my life and left the church 4 or 5 years ago. since that time i am just losing faith entirely. i used to believe it took more faith to be an atheist, and for quite a while i considered myself an agnostic, but i think i’m pretty much arriving at atheism at this point.

i’m not here to argue or convince anyone that my line of thinking is correct. i just want to discuss with someone these thoughts to see if they even really make sense.

i’m also not going to be very good at this message board thing since my day to day responsibilities probably wont enable me to spend long periods of time on here at once, but i am very interested in your thoughts and will read them and respond to them as time allows me to.

here goes:

i don’t think it can be proven that god exists. maybe faith is a gift, maybe it’s a choice, maybe it’s imagined. i don’t know how anyone could determine.

if god exists, how do i know which faith has the true god or gods?
how do we even know he has revealed himself?
if god is a supreme being then how can he expect us flawed little humans to know which version of god in this world is the right one?
if god is the judeo-christian god, then how do i know what to rely on as his revelation? the catholic church says we should rely on it and other christians say to look just at the bible yet they all differ in what they believe and do.

faith seems multifaceted. like i need more than just faith in god to have faith in god. i also need to have faith in myself (pride?) to believe i’d ever be capable of determining the answers to these questions. it seems to me more humble to admit that it can’t be determined at all and therefore unlikely that god even exists. and no offense, but if he does exists, it seems cruel that he would make it so difficult for someone to find him.

the biggest problem i see with atheism is morality. i have to admit that religious morals, and especially christian morals, lead me to believe faith is a good thing, but i really can’t prove that. i can’t prove christian morals are better just because they work for me. and i certainly can’t prove that good morals are the result of the existence of god when they could simply be the product of more thoughtful and meditative people. it reminds me of buddhism which is not a theistic religion and yet it has much of the same morality. they do meditate though which leads me to believe that if people would simply slow down and be more thoughtful we’d all live by the golden rule.

i look forward to discussing these things with you. more thoughts may come to mind, but this is probably more than enough for now.

thanks

Can I ask one question, what led you to where you are now?? What about Christianity or belief in God are you struggling to accept?

 

[PennitentMan]

Assuming that the god who was proven to exist is, in fact, the God whom we as Christians worship.

Agreed. Sorry, I based that on an unspoken assumption. “Christian” can be subbed for Muslim, or Mormon or Zeus or Venus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster any other Deity. I guess I was thinking Catholic since it’s a Catholic site

 

[PennitentMan]

Can I ask one question, what led you to where you are now?? What about Christianity or belief in God are you struggling to accept?

It sounds to me like it’s not a specific aspect, but more like the entire concept of believing in a deity without proof. Faith, I think is what the poster is struggling with.

 

[steve_b]

You’re assuming that there is, in fact, a god to inspire that statement. Probably not the best place to start with someone who doubts that fact.

You missed the point. Since God put himself in everyones heart, God can then say, only a fool says in his heart, there is no God.

IOW, it takes a deliberate act of the will to deny God exists.

 

[PennitentMan]

You missed the point. Since God put himself in everyone’s heart

But the only way you can state this is with faith. You can’t prove it, and you can’t convince someone who doesn’t believe just by this statement. The OP is questioning exactly this. How can we know? If God put himself in everyone’s heart, then we should all arrive at the same conclusion, not so?

IOW, it takes a deliberate act of the will to deny God exists.

If, and only if you have been fully believing for a very long time that god exists, would it take a great act of will to deny god. But even then, this poster stated that he/she is struggling with faith. For someone that doesn’t believe in the first place, that statement is meaningless.

 

[steve_b]

But the only way you can state this is with faith. You can’t prove it, and you can’t convince someone who doesn’t believe just by this statement.

That works in reverse also. You say God does NOT exist. You can’t prove that. Therefore you accept your statement on faith he doesn’t exist.
pen:

The OP is questioning exactly this. How can we know? If God put himself in everyone’s heart, then we should all arrive at the same conclusion, not so?

If, and only if you have been fully believing for a very long time that god exists, would it take a great act of will to deny god. But even then, this poster stated that he/she is struggling with faith. For someone that doesn’t believe in the first place, that statement is meaningless.

The natural inclination is to believe God exists. One may not have the specifics correct, especially if one doesn’t have any proper theological education, but it’s natural to believe in God of some kind. You have to unlearn that God exists, and learn that he does NOT exist, for the following statement to make sense. (only a fool says in his heart God does not exist)

 

[PennitentMan]

The natural inclination is to believe God exists. You have to learn that God does NOT exist.

I totally disagree. Totally. A good demonstration of this is the following quote: “There are no Christians in Cradles.”

You don’t just get born believing in God.
And no, the “feeling” that “there has to be more to life than this” cannot be constituted as god’ imprint on your soul, or whatever. You are working on pure fact-less speculation.

If god’s imprint was on every heart, don’t you think that they all would know god? The same god? And yet there are countless religions out there. Are there countless gods out there, stamping their imprints on souls at random? That cannot be true either, because certain cultures maintain certain beliefs and religions. Religion is topographical, not random…it is because you grow up learning what your parents believe, and believe it too. Christians are made. There is no invisible stamp.

 

[PennitentMan]

I see you edited your post

That works in reverse also. You say God does NOT exist. You can’t prove that. Therefore you accept your statement on faith he doesn’t exist.

you are right, I can’t prove that, but then I don’t need to disprove God. The burden is on the claim that God exist. I can also claim that the easter bunny exist, or a Pink Unicorn living in my basement, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If I claim that any of these exist, I would have to have some good proof to back up that statement, otherwise I’d be laughed off of any forum.
People claiming that god exists needs to back up that claim. You don’t believe in Zeus, or Venus, or Krishna or Allah or any other god do you? If I asked you why, you’d have reasons for that, and I’d probably agree with you. I just use that same reasoning to one more god than you do….yours.

The natural inclination is to believe God exists. One may not have the specifics correct, especially if one doesn’t have any proper theological education, but it’s natural to believe in God of some kind. You have to unlearn that God exists, and learn that he does NOT exist.

See previous Post:

PennitentMan:

I totally disagree. Totally. A good demonstration of this is the following quote: “There are no Christians in Cradles.”

You don’t just get born believing in God.
And no, the “feeling” that “there has to be more to life than this” cannot be constituted as god’ imprint on your soul, or whatever. You are working on pure fact-less speculation.

If god’s imprint was on every heart, don’t you think that they all would know god? The same god? And yet there are countless religions out there. Are there countless gods out there, stamping their imprints on souls at random? That cannot be true either, because certain cultures maintain certain beliefs and religions. Religion is topographical, not random…it is because you grow up learning what your parents believe, and believe it too. Christians are made. There is no invisible stamp.

 

[steve_b]

I totally disagree. Totally. A good demonstration of this is the following quote: “There are no Christians in Cradles.”

Technically that isn’t true. Baptism makes one a Christian AND a child of God. Catholics baptize infants while they are still in the cradle.
penn:

You don’t just get born believing in God.
And no, the “feeling” that “there has to be more to life than this” cannot be constituted as god’ imprint on your soul, or whatever. You are working on pure fact-less speculation.

Children have no problem grasping that there is a God. AND I haven’t met a child yet who says there is no God.
pen:

If god’s imprint was on every heart, don’t you think that they all would know god?
The same god? And yet there are countless religions out there.

As I said previously, if one has no proper theological training, they can still believe in a God even if not properly understood. That is why you have so many religions who believe in a god…
pen:

Are there countless gods out there, stamping their imprints on souls at random?

No. There is only ONE God.
pen:

That cannot be true either, because certain cultures maintain certain beliefs and religions.

culture and region aside, God is God of everyone
pen:

Religion is topographical, not random…it is because you grow up learning what your parents believe, and believe it too. Christians are made. There is no invisible stamp.

Even the most primitive peoples on the planet have belief in a higher being other than themselves…

 

[steve_b]

you are right, I can’t prove that, but then I don’t need to disprove God. The burden is on the claim that God exist. I can also claim that the easter bunny exist, or a Pink Unicorn living in my basement, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If I claim that any of these exist, I would have to have some good proof to back up that statement, otherwise I’d be laughed off of any forum.

You are making a positive statement that God does NOT exist. Therefore you DO have a burden to prove your posirtion.
pen:

People claiming that god exists needs to back up that claim. You don’t believe in Zeus, or Venus, or Krishna or Allah or any other god do you? If I asked you why, you’d have reasons for that, and I’d probably agree with you. I just use that same reasoning to one more god than you do….yours.

Zeus, Venus, Krishna, are people’s attempts at recognition that there is a higher power than man. As I said previously, people can get it wrong on the particulars because of bad formation and myth, but they still recognize and it is natural to recognize, a higher power…a god. It is an invitation to teach them properly.

 

[StevieD]

If a believer is wrong, he loses nothing after death, if an atheist is wrong, he loses everything. So why not believe? (I forget the name of the French philosopher who said this but it still seems to be true). There are no proofs to persuade a committed atheist but there is sufficient evidence to persuade someone with an open mind, look at e.g. the incorrupt bodies of the saints even in very recent times (Fr Solanus Casey in the US in the fifties), the witness evidence of the miracle of Fatima, read ‘Miracles Do Happen’ by Briege McKenna (accounts of some very strange and wonderful things), look at the evidence of Eucharistic miracles (easily found), etc etc. If you look at the miraculous evidence available and then decide that there is no God, then you really have crawled out on a dangerous limb.

 

[steve_b]

If a believer is wrong, he loses nothing after death, if an atheist is wrong, he loses everything. So why not believe? (I forget the name of the French philosopher who said this but it still seems to be true).

Ockham as in Ockham’s razor

 

[PennitentMan]

Technically that isn’t true. Baptism makes one a Christian AND a child of God. Catholics baptize infants while they are still in the cradle.

“Cradle” is used as Alliteration. It’s meant babies aren’t born that way. Technically baptism makes one a Christian, but only in the eyes of the church. It’s not like the child all of a sudden professes god…in fact, that’s a good point. If a child is of speaking age and hasn’t yet been baptized, doe he/she suddenly start proclaiming Jesus If he/she hasn’t been told of Jesus before? I certainly don’t think so.

Children have no problem grasping that there is a God.

Sure, Children doesn’t have problems grasping Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny either.

AND I haven’t met a child yet who says there is no God.

Sure, but that’s just you. You probably don’t know any children with Hindu parents, or Buddhist parents, or Krishna parents or Atheist parents. Don’t you think that’s more a product of the circles you move in, perhaps?

As I said previously, if one has no proper theological training, they can still believe in a God even if not properly understood. That is why you have so many religions who believe in a god.

yes, they can still believe in something, based on a feeling, they can believe anything they want, but it certainly doesn’t correlate into even a remotely similar being across all the people that haven’t heard about god…what about Voodoo lore? African Shamanism, the multi-theistic gods of India and the east? Roman Mythology? The deities are so vastly different that there is not even a remote correlation, so that disproves your argument.

culture and region aside, God is God of everyone

sure, in your theology, but that’s not true for all humans on earth…some might vehemently disagree.

Even the most primitive peoples on the planet have belief in a higher being other than themselves…

And the only reason they have that is because they used this to try to explain away things they didn’t understand…like for instance:

The Northern Lights. The effect is known as the aurora borealis, named after the Roman goddess of dawn, Aurora, and the Greek name for north wind, Boreas by Pierre Gassendi in 1621.The aurora borealis is also called the northern polar lights, as it is only visible in the sky from the Northern Hemisphere, the chance of visibility increasing with proximity to the North Magnetic Pole, which is currently in the arctic islands of northern Canada. Aurorae seen near the magnetic pole may be high overhead, but from further away, they illuminate the northern horizon as a greenish glow or sometimes a faint red, as if the sun was rising from an unusual direction. The aurora borealis most often occurs from September to October and from March to April. The northern lights have had a number of names throughout history. **The Cree people call this phenomenon the “Dance of the Spirits.” **Aurorae can be spotted throughout the world. It is most visible closer to the poles due to the longer periods of darkness and the magnetic field.
Emphasis Mine.

Or how about the Zulu belief that when it rains heavily, and the sky is filled with lightning and thunder, a big sky-snake is moving in the clouds to a new home.

It’s all based on things they don’t understand or are afraid of.

 

[PennitentMan]

You are making a positive statement that God does NOT exist. Therefore you DO have a burden to prove your posirtion.

Incorrect assumption. Burden of proof is on the claim of existence.

 

[PennitentMan]

If a believer is wrong, he loses nothing after death, if an atheist is wrong, he loses everything. So why not believe? (I forget the name of the French philosopher who said this but it still seems to be true).

That’s not really a good reason to believe in god though, is it? Just to cover my own beeeehind? It would still be a lie, even if I was scared of hell, I’d be in it for the wrong reasons. The OP is asking specifically about proof vs. Faith.

There are no proofs to persuade a committed atheist but there is sufficient evidence to persuade someone with an open mind, look at e.g. the incorrupt bodies of the saints even in very recent times (Fr Solanus Casey in the US in the fifties), the witness evidence of the miracle of Fatima, read ‘Miracles Do Happen’ by Briege McKenna (accounts of some very strange and wonderful things), look at the evidence of Eucharistic miracles (easily found), etc etc. If you look at the miraculous evidence available and then decide that there is no God, then you really have crawled out on a dangerous limb.

And the miracles cannot be proven nor verified though. Anyone with an open mind has to concede that too. On open mind must concede that the miracles might not have happened, could have been staged, or was exaggerated in translation, etc…
I believe that there is a prize (somewhere) of like $ 1,000,000 for someone with proof of an actual miracle, but it’s still unclaimed. Why is that?

Science and the atheist take the humble position of “We don’t know yet”. We don’t need an Invisible deity to try to reason away things we can’t explain on the spot. We concede that we do not know yet, but research is discovering new things daily…things like lightning and thunder is a result of friction between molecules and not a giant floating snake.