My name says it all

[Axion]

i don’t think it can be proven that god exists. maybe faith is a gift, maybe it’s a choice, maybe it’s imagined. i don’t know how anyone could determine.

You can’t prove God exists - but you have two choices. 1. We are the meaningless result of a hugely improbable sequence of first physical (creation of the universe), then chemical (complex life forming by chance from dead chemicals), then biological accidents and coincidences. Our life therefore has no meaning and is entirely futile and without purpose. Or we can believe 2. That all these things are not random chance, that the Universe has a creator and purpose.

if god exists, how do i know which faith has the true god or gods?
how do we even know he has revealed himself?

If God exists and has a purpose for us, He will in some way reveal that purpose to us. If he wants us to act freely, without coercion, He will not appear visibly and strike people who disobey him with thunderbolts, but let us know what He wants and leave us in freedom to do good or evil. We have been given a conscience and reason to know which teachings are good and likely to be of God and which are evil. Therefore if one faith teaches, Do not murder, Love One Another, even your enemy, Do to others as you would have them do to you - and another teaches the strong are the blessed, destroy your enemies totally, or urges human sacrifice … You know which one has true Divine origin. Some faiths like Buddhism aren’t obviously evilly motivated - but still have flaws, such as fatalism and denial of the need to help those who suffer.

if god is a supreme being then how can he expect us flawed little humans to know which version of god in this world is the right one?

See above

if god is the judeo-christian god, then how do i know what to rely on as his revelation? the catholic church says we should rely on it and other christians say to look just at the bible yet they all differ in what they believe and do.

Rely on the Church that has been there from the beginning and alwayys taught the same truth. Do not rely on groups that say - “we suddenly got this revelation x thousand years later that the truth is different to what Christians taught up till then.”

faith seems multifaceted. like i need more than just faith in god to have faith in god. i also need to have faith in myself (pride?) to believe i’d ever be capable of determining the answers to these questions. it seems to me more humble to admit that it can’t be determined at all and therefore unlikely that god even exists. and no offense, but if he does exists, it seems cruel that he would make it so difficult for someone to find him.

No. You don’t need pride to believe in God, You need to accept that we all need a guide. That God will have given us a guide to life and to Him, and that guide will be recognisable by His actions and the message He brings.

Pennitent man said:

You are also correct on the moral scenario. The Christian morality is not the only good moral code, in fact it’s part of a universal moral code, we call the golden rule. It’s present in many religions and cultures. Christianity sums it up as “Do unto others…” Just because someone stops being a Christian doesn’t mean that he turns into an evil, sadistic, SOB. Atheists are good people…I daresay that there are some atheists that are better and more moral people that some Christians.

No. You are picking and choosing. There is no “universal moral code”. Morality differs across cultures. In some religions it is good to demean and shun others because of their caste. In some it is good to make war on your enemies and kill them for glory, or human sacrifice. In some religions only the strong go to paradise. In some religions you can attack and kill all non-believers. The golden rule in its perfect form is the keynote of Christianity.

The trouble with Atheism is that atheists can stay moral so long as they are conditioned by Christian society, but since their morality is not absolute, but relativistic - it can be changed at any time. Thjis is why (as well as Abortion) we see the greatest mass-murders being committed by Atheists - the French revolutionaries killed perhaps half a million people. Pol Pot killed 2 million, Stalin 10 million, Mao even more. This was because they had no absolute morality.** They could set aside “Thou shalt not kill” whenever they wanted, and as soon as it was convenient to do so - since they made their own morality up as it suited them.**

 

[Primox]

(I forget the name of the French philosopher who said this but it still seems to be true)

Ockham as in Ockham’s razor

Occam’s razor is that “the simplest explanation for a phenomenon is most likely the correct explanation" - the Law of Parsimony. If two theories explain the same phenomenon equally well, than choose the simplest explanation.

What you’re thinking about is Blaise Pascal’s Pascal’s Wager. Pascal did have some very interesting insights though:
Blaise Pascal:

We understand nothing of the works of God unless we take it as a principle that He wishes to blind some and to enlighten others.

We understand this truth from Christ himself.

Often, when we hold beliefs that have been sustained by time and immaturity, they don’t have enough support to stand when reason strikes the pillars on which those tenants were held. I wouldn’t necessarily say that you lost your faith in God so much as you never had faith in Him before. Perhaps what your faith was in was what you’d been told or expected to believe about God.

If you can’t hear God’s words, tell him. If you can’t feel His heavy hand, tell him that you can’t. I’ll tell you what it’s like: your first relationship ending. You entered it blindly, unknowingly, thinking “this will never pass.” It passed. Your heart has been broken, and you wonder, “is there such a thing as true love?” Some will heave an apathetic “no…” while yet others will search vehemently to find out for certain.

My advice: start a new search for God and for Faith in God. I have faith that with a little endurance on your part, He’ll make himself known.

May God find you, may he bring you wisdom, may he show you light, and may he mend your broken heart, in Jesus’ name, Amen.

 

[steve_b]

Technically baptism makes one a Christian, but only in the eyes of the church.

It was God who established the sacrament of baptism AND what it means. The Church follows His instruction.
pen:

It’s not like the child all of a sudden professes god…in fact, that’s a good point. If a child is of speaking age and hasn’t yet been baptized, doe he/she suddenly start proclaiming Jesus If he/she hasn’t been told of Jesus before? I certainly don’t think so.

You being an ex Catholic should know at least some of this I hope.

Baptism instills sanctifying grace in the soul. THEN It is up to the parents and the godparents to teach the Child about Jesus. As one grows in stature hopefully one also grows in faith and knowledge of the faith
pen:

Sure, Children doesn’t have problems grasping Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny either.

It’s much more difficult to grasp the unseen than the seen. Yet they (children) grasp God, the unseen.
pen:

Sure, but that’s just you. You probably don’t know any children with Hindu parents, or Buddhist parents, or Krishna parents or Atheist parents. Don’t you think that’s more a product of the circles you move in, perhaps?

You claim to be ex Catholic. Your parents I presume weren’t Hindus, Buddhists, OR atheists. It’s possible you were baptised as an infant… true? Did you receive training in the faith? At what age did you doubt/deny God?
pen:

yes, they can still believe in something, based on a feeling, they can believe anything they want, but it certainly doesn’t correlate into even a remotely similar being across all the people that haven’t heard about god…what about Voodoo lore? African Shamanism, the multi-theistic gods of India and the east? Roman Mythology? The deities are so vastly different that there is not even a remote correlation, so that disproves your argument.

On the contrary, these arre all examples of a type of faith, even if wrong.
pen:

sure, in your theology, but that’s not true for all humans on earth…some might vehemently disagree.

And the only reason they have that is because they used this to try to explain away things they didn’t understand…like for instance:

The Northern Lights. The effect is known as the aurora borealis, named after the Roman goddess of dawn, Aurora, and the Greek name for north wind, Boreas by Pierre Gassendi in 1621.The aurora borealis is also called the northern polar lights, as it is only visible in the sky from the Northern Hemisphere, the chance of visibility increasing with proximity to the North Magnetic Pole, which is currently in the arctic islands of northern Canada. Aurorae seen near the magnetic pole may be high overhead, but from further away, they illuminate the northern horizon as a greenish glow or sometimes a faint red, as if the sun was rising from an unusual direction. The aurora borealis most often occurs from September to October and from March to April. The northern lights have had a number of names throughout history. **The Cree people call this phenomenon the “Dance of the Spirits.” **Aurorae can be spotted throughout the world. It is most visible closer to the poles due to the longer periods of darkness and the magnetic field.
Emphasis Mine.

Or how about the Zulu belief that when it rains heavily, and the sky is filled with lightning and thunder, a big sky-snake is moving in the clouds to a new home.

It’s all based on things they don’t understand or are afraid of.

I might suggest that in their attempt to reach out to a god, albeit wrong, exhibit future potential to be taught the truth at some time.

 

[steve_b]

Incorrect assumption. Burden of proof is on the claim of existence.

Wrong. The burden of proof is on both sides, because both sides make claims. When that happens both sides need to provide proof of their claims.

 

[VociMike]

Wrong. The burden of proof is on both sides, because both sides make claims. When that happens both sides need to provide proof of their claims.

This is a critical point. Atheism makes the claim (for which they have absolutely no evidence, unlike the Judeo-Christian claims) that the world came into existence through non-supernatural means, or that it has existed forever.

Christianity is built upon both faith and reason (evidence). Atheism is built only upon faith, since they offer no evidence for their position.

 

[CentralFLJames]

“Cradle” is used as Alliteration. It’s meant babies aren’t born that way. Technically baptism makes one a Christian, but only in the eyes of the church. It’s not like the child all of a sudden professes god…in fact, that’s a good point. If a child is of speaking age and hasn’t yet been baptized, doe he/she suddenly start proclaiming Jesus If he/she hasn’t been told of Jesus before? I certainly don’t think so.

“ONLY in the eyes of the Church”? Those are God’s eyes guy. It’s hilarious that you are an atheist and hanging onto protestant ideas. Jesus said “bring the children to me”. He did not mention a single age restriction - ever. An infant dedicated to God in baptism is God’s.

God did not say “you must profess Jesus to be saved” - that would leave those that are mute or mentally handicapped or suffering alzheimer’s etc. to be out of luck.

James

 

[wxboss]

It seems a lot of your questions revolve around the question to know with any surety whether there is anything such as absolute truth. Well, that is a good question. After all, there are many views out there that seem to compete with each other.

It would be convenient to say that all religions (or for the sake of this thread we’ll call them ‘truths’) are subjective or relative depending upon one’s own belief. But if we make that claim, we’re immediately presented with a problem. If this statement is included in our new belief, then we are essentially saying that even this truth is relative and therefore isn’t always true. If we then take this statement (or belief) and hold it as an absolute for our new doctrine, then we are essentially making a case for an absolute while at the same time denying that an absolute even exists.

The arguments about other gods and goddesses was always intriguing. I think the best explanation I heard concerning this was when J.R.R. Tolkein was talking with C.S. Lewis just prior to his conversion. While the actual talk went on for many hours (until the wee hours of the morning), the result was essentially this: there were many stories throughout history of gods coming to Earth and interceding in the lives of men (some even dying for them) - it appeared to be a universal theme. However, Tolkein showed Lewis that those stories were myths told by poets while Jesus Christ was a real person who lived in the real world. The ‘universal theme’ culminated in an actual person.

 

[RosaryFan]

hi everyone,

i was catholic most of my life and left the church 4 or 5 years ago. since that time i am just losing faith entirely. i used to believe it took more faith to be an atheist, and for quite a while i considered myself an agnostic, but i think i’m pretty much arriving at atheism at this point.

i’m not here to argue or convince anyone that my line of thinking is correct. i just want to discuss with someone these thoughts to see if they even really make sense.

i’m also not going to be very good at this message board thing since my day to day responsibilities probably wont enable me to spend long periods of time on here at once, but i am very interested in your thoughts and will read them and respond to them as time allows me to.

here goes:

i don’t think it can be proven that god exists. maybe faith is a gift, maybe it’s a choice, maybe it’s imagined. i don’t know how anyone could determine.

if god exists, how do i know which faith has the true god or gods?
how do we even know he has revealed himself?
if god is a supreme being then how can he expect us flawed little humans to know which version of god in this world is the right one?
if god is the judeo-christian god, then how do i know what to rely on as his revelation? the catholic church says we should rely on it and other christians say to look just at the bible yet they all differ in what they believe and do.

faith seems multifaceted. like i need more than just faith in god to have faith in god. i also need to have faith in myself (pride?) to believe i’d ever be capable of determining the answers to these questions. it seems to me more humble to admit that it can’t be determined at all and therefore unlikely that god even exists. and no offense, but if he does exists, it seems cruel that he would make it so difficult for someone to find him.

the biggest problem i see with atheism is morality. i have to admit that religious morals, and especially christian morals, lead me to believe faith is a good thing, but i really can’t prove that. i can’t prove christian morals are better just because they work for me. and i certainly can’t prove that good morals are the result of the existence of god when they could simply be the product of more thoughtful and meditative people. it reminds me of buddhism which is not a theistic religion and yet it has much of the same morality. they do meditate though which leads me to believe that if people would simply slow down and be more thoughtful we’d all live by the golden rule.

i look forward to discussing these things with you. more thoughts may come to mind, but this is probably more than enough for now.

thanks

Faith is definitely a gift. Pray to God and ask Him to give you this gift. Say a short prayer every day asking for the gift of faith and BE OPEN TO RECEIVING THE GIFT. It may not happen overnight - be patient (God is).

 

[fadingfaith]

hi everyone, im finally back.

thanks for so many responses! i feel silly that i started this and im the one participating the least.

let me try to answer things in order. be right back

 

[fadingfaith]

How long is quite awhile that you were agnostic?

i think about 2 or 3 years

Regarding atheism, and I suppose agnosticism can be included also, it might be good to reflect on why God inspired this statement to be made in sacred scripture.

Psalm 14

1 The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”

but because this is written in what you believe to be a holy book doesnt mean its true. is someone writing “the fool says in his heart there is no santa (enter any mythologic person here)” a good thing to think about to help prove santa is real?

 

[fadingfaith]

Continued.

You are also correct on the moral scenario. The Christian morality is not the only good moral code, in fact it’s part of a universal moral code, we call the golden rule. It’s present in many religions and cultures. Christianity sums it up as “Do unto others…” Just because someone stops being a Christian doesn’t mean that he turns into an evil, sadistic, SOB. Atheists are good people…I daresay that there are some atheists that are better and more moral people that some Christians.
Atheism is not a complete world view, not like Christianity that is a complete world view with a set of moral codes. Atheism is just a term for a person’s conviction that there is no god. It’s also divided into weak atheism an strong atheism.
As far as morals are concerned, most of the atheists I speak to base their lives on mutual respect for humans, and a healthy respect for the law. Just because god is out of the equation, doesn’t mean I’m going to start killing people… I would have harmed a fellow human being and I’ll get arrested and thrown in jail.
I find “Atheist morality”, if I may call it that, more pure in a way…because I’m not doing something because someone commands me to, if I help someone or am kind to someone, it’s because I choose to, without any force or authority commanding me.

Well, I’m not sure if this info is what you were looking for, but that’s my thoughts on this matter.

Good luck in your journey!

wow, thanks pennitentman, it does look like we are at about the same place in understanding (or not understanding). you make a very good point about more pure morality (not to offend believers here). thats something ive thought about a lot and its one of the things that was really bothering me as i was questioning. i felt i was going against my conscience, like a fake acting and talking like i believe these things when if i really think about them i disagree or at least admit that there may not be an absolute truth about these things. as a professing christian i really had to brush of the desire to consider the non-christian side of the arguments. now that im leaning toward disbelief in god it has enabled me to really think for myself about these things and i realize that there may not be an absolute answer and the best thing may not be the christian answer. i dont mean to imply that christians dont think for themselves but my personal experience has proven that i probably have not thought for myself enough about these things. one thing i realize about admitting i may not know the answers is that it seems to make a good case for a godly authority to govern us (like the catholic church or the bible or some other religion) but then i realize that i cannot even know these really are authorities. all of it takes a faith that goes against all of my human reasoning. nothing else in life requires me to set aside my reasoning abilities like the issue of god does. i really cant find a good reason to believe except for that bit of fear instilled in me as a child that i will go to hell for not believing.

 

[fadingfaith]

Can I ask one question, what led you to where you are now?? What about Christianity or belief in God are you struggling to accept?

i question why i should believe in god in the first place. how did it all start? im not really even sure. my skepticism has progressed very slowly over many years. the past few years ive realized that im not being true to myself.

ive scoured this site for probably 6 years and watched the arguments supporting the faith. ive watched ewtn and listened to the catholic answers radio program. ive talked to priests. ive tried adoration. ive tried praying. i did still enjoy adoration the last time i went but i think thats simply because i have very little time to myself to really think and its an opportunity for me to be quiet and meditative, but i cant say i felt i was encountering god while there.

 

[fadingfaith]

You missed the point. Since God put himself in everyones heart, God can then say, only a fool says in his heart, there is no God.

IOW, it takes a deliberate act of the will to deny God exists.

but since god cannot be proven, isnt faith a deliberate act of the will too? i think faith is a choice. and if its a gift why doesnt he give it to everyone? it seems cruel if he doesnt. why does he create some people without every giving them this gift? what is the purpose of their existence? to be put in hell because god didnt give them faith? none of that makes sense.

 

[fadingfaith]

That works in reverse also. You say God does NOT exist. You can’t prove that. Therefore you accept your statement on faith he doesn’t exist.

but nothing in this world leads me to believe that there should be a god so why should i prove he doesnt exist? its like asking me to prove unicorns dont exist when i have no reason to believe they do in the first place.

The natural inclination is to believe God exists.

this i dont necessarily believe. is it a natural inclination or does it just seem that way because your family and/or society have been telling you about god since the day you were born?

 

[fadingfaith]

I see you edited your post

you are right, I can’t prove that, but then I don’t need to disprove God. The burden is on the claim that God exist. I can also claim that the easter bunny exist, or a Pink Unicorn living in my basement, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If I claim that any of these exist, I would have to have some good proof to back up that statement, otherwise I’d be laughed off of any forum.
People claiming that god exists needs to back up that claim. You don’t believe in Zeus, or Venus, or Krishna or Allah or any other god do you? If I asked you why, you’d have reasons for that, and I’d probably agree with you. I just use that same reasoning to one more god than you do….yours.

See previous Post:

Ha ha, i see you answered like i did! someone once said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. i just dont see evidence that cant be easily attributed to something natural. if god is real and wants us to know it why is he so elusive? he knows how much less intelligent than he we are yet he gives us very vague evidence?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Unsubscribing - I see a rash of new “am losing faith” kinds of people posting lately. I think its all the same person using sock puppet accounts or else the link to CAF has been posted on some atheist site telling people to come visit here when one is feeling down and depressed and in need of somone to talk too or to have a playmate to debate with.

I don’t have the time to play anymore…

James

 

[fadingfaith]

Children have no problem grasping that there is a God. AND I haven’t met a child yet who says there is no God.

but they also have no problem believing anything else you tell them. thats the nature of children. few children will tell you there is no santa too unless theyve discovered for themselves or been told the truth. but with faith there is a whole culture built around it and it doesnt just show itself for one season a year. its very hard not to believe when everyone around you believes it is real.

As I said previously, if one has no proper theological training, they can still believe in a God even if not properly understood. That is why you have so many religions who believe in a god…

that may be because people usually attribute the unknown to god? i think science has closed many of those gaps, at least for me it has. it looks like the religious community are really struggling to reconcile their faith with science. more and more there are natural/scientific explanations for the things that once were attributed to god. i know the catholic church hasnt said evolution is impossible but it has to say that in order to be credible because the evidence to support evolution is so overwhelming. and other christian faiths hold onto the creation story and disbelieve the overwhelming evidence that the reality is something other than what their faith has taught them. thats not being truthful in my opinion. i think you have to deceive yourself into believing something like that, but i think the reason they do this is because they know, as i also agree, that if evolution is true it casts a lot of doubt as to the veracity of any of the other claims in the bible.

Even the most primitive peoples on the planet have belief in a higher being other than themselves…

but they attribute everything they dont understand to god: the rain, the wind… they have no understanding about science. like them, maybe people of faith hold onto faith in god because science hasnt all the answers and may never have them all. but i dont think there is anything wrong with saying we just dont know all the answers and we dont have to say its because there is some more intelligent being responsible for all of the unknowns.

 

[VociMike]

you are right, I can’t prove that, but then I don’t need to disprove God. The burden is on the claim that God exist. I can also claim that the easter bunny exist, or a Pink Unicorn living in my basement, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If I claim that any of these exist, I would have to have some good proof to back up that statement, otherwise I’d be laughed off of any forum.

And yet, if you deny the existence of God, you are claiming either that the universe has existed forever, or that this universe is but one of an infinite number of universes. And the evidence for either of these choices is no greater than the evidence for the easter bunny, or a Pink Unicorn living in my basement, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

So logically, by denying the existence of God, you are claiming the equivalent of a Pink Unicorn living in your basement. You are claiming something for which you have no evidence, unlike the claims for the existence of God, for which there is evidence (just evidence that you reject).

 

[fadingfaith]

Unsubscribing - I see a rash of new “am losing faith” kinds of people posting lately. I think its all the same person using sock puppet accounts or else the link to CAF has been posted on some atheist site telling people to come visit here when one is feeling down and depressed and in need of somone to talk too or to have a playmate to debate with.

I don’t have the time to play anymore…

James

like i said, ive been looking at this site for a long time and yes i agree there is a rise in the number of people losing faith. i think seeing the arguments has had an affect on my faith but what do you do, make this a forum for believers only?

even christianity believes that there will be a falling away in the end times. why is it so hard to believe that this is the case now?

i cant believe youd simply attribute a growing number of people struggling with their faith to a game of some sort. why not simply pray for people who are losing faith instead of trying to determine who is being truthful and who is toying with you and then replying to a thread and accusing people of being disingenuous?

 

[fadingfaith]

If a believer is wrong, he loses nothing after death, if an atheist is wrong, he loses everything. So why not believe? (I forget the name of the French philosopher who said this but it still seems to be true). There are no proofs to persuade a committed atheist but there is sufficient evidence to persuade someone with an open mind, look at e.g. the incorrupt bodies of the saints even in very recent times (Fr Solanus Casey in the US in the fifties), the witness evidence of the miracle of Fatima, read ‘Miracles Do Happen’ by Briege McKenna (accounts of some very strange and wonderful things), look at the evidence of Eucharistic miracles (easily found), etc etc. If you look at the miraculous evidence available and then decide that there is no God, then you really have crawled out on a dangerous limb.

yes, pascals wager. but if a believer is wrong he is living a lie, sometimes even setting aside the dicatates of his conscience in order to submit to something that may not even be true. i simply cannot do that anymore. if in my disbelief i am wrong after death i would hope that god could see that i was trying to live an honest life and that i used the reason he gave me to try to understand faith but didnt find anything reasonable to lead me to believe in him. as for miracles i have only the heresay of other people. i cannot build a faith filled life based on the supposed miracles others claim to have had. if god wants us to believe in him why no show everyone a miracle? but even then i have to admit that even if i saw what seemed a miracle i would question it as either being my imagination or having some natural explanation that im unaware of since the other 99.9% of my life experience has taught me that there are no miracles and everything has a natural explanation.