My name says it all

[fadingfaith]

That’s not really a good reason to believe in god though, is it? Just to cover my own beeeehind? It would still be a lie, even if I was scared of hell, I’d be in it for the wrong reasons. The OP is asking specifically about proof vs. Faith.

And the miracles cannot be proven nor verified though. Anyone with an open mind has to concede that too. On open mind must concede that the miracles might not have happened, could have been staged, or was exaggerated in translation, etc…
I believe that there is a prize (somewhere) of like $ 1,000,000 for someone with proof of an actual miracle, but it’s still unclaimed. Why is that?

Science and the atheist take the humble position of “We don’t know yet”. We don’t need an Invisible deity to try to reason away things we can’t explain on the spot. We concede that we do not know yet, but research is discovering new things daily…things like lightning and thunder is a result of friction between molecules and not a giant floating snake.

i guess i should read ahead before i respond since you seem to have answered much like i have. but at least everyone understands where im coming from too. i have given it a lot of thought i just havent had a good conversation about it with anyone.

 

[fadingfaith]

You can’t prove God exists - but you have two choices. 1. We are the meaningless result of a hugely improbable sequence of first physical (creation of the universe), then chemical (complex life forming by chance from dead chemicals), then biological accidents and coincidences. Our life therefore has no meaning and is entirely futile and without purpose. Or we can believe 2. That all these things are not random chance, that the Universe has a creator and purpose.

so i should chose to believe it has a creator and a purpose because the alternative is uncomfortable to us? why not just live life to the fullest now and make heaven on earth, not just for ourselves but for everyone? (try anyway) why cant we just live to make the world a better place and try to be as happy as possible and just accept the bad things that happen and do the best we can with them? do we chose to believe there’s a god and an afterlife simply because we need to believe there is something better? why not just live this life here more fully and make the most of that?

If God exists and has a purpose for us, He will in some way reveal that purpose to us. If he wants us to act freely, without coercion, He will not appear visibly and strike people who disobey him with thunderbolts, but let us know what He wants and leave us in freedom to do good or evil. We have been given a conscience and reason to know which teachings are good and likely to be of God and which are evil. Therefore if one faith teaches, Do not murder, Love One Another, even your enemy, Do to others as you would have them do to you - and another teaches the strong are the blessed, destroy your enemies totally, or urges human sacrifice … You know which one has true Divine origin. Some faiths like Buddhism aren’t obviously evilly motivated - but still have flaws, such as fatalism and denial of the need to help those who suffer.

i think most humans are empathetic by nature and this nature help us to advance as a species. so i dont think it takes a god to tell us right from wrong. i dont necessarily believe that it takes a christianized culture to raise children who are empathetic. so morality isn’t necessarily the product of faith.

Rely on the Church that has been there from the beginning and alwayys taught the same truth. Do not rely on groups that say - “we suddenly got this revelation x thousand years later that the truth is different to what Christians taught up till then.”

the church has not been consistent though. even in the past it has not even acted according to its own teachings about love and tolerance. even if it can be shown to have been consistent in some way this does not mean it is from god. how old it is or how old its teachings are doesnt mean its from god.

No. You don’t need pride to believe in God, You need to accept that we all need a guide. That God will have given us a guide to life and to Him, and that guide will be recognisable by His actions and the message He brings.

but do we need a guide? there are many people who believe in a guide who dont seem to be benefitting from their faith.

The trouble with Atheism is that atheists can stay moral so long as they are conditioned by Christian society, but since their morality is not absolute, but relativistic - it can be changed at any time. Thjis is why (as well as Abortion) we see the greatest mass-murders being committed by Atheists - the French revolutionaries killed perhaps half a million people. Pol Pot killed 2 million, Stalin 10 million, Mao even more. This was because they had no absolute morality.** They could set aside “Thou shalt not kill” whenever they wanted, and as soon as it was convenient to do so - since they made their own morality up as it suited them.**

the immorality of many christians does not help the case for god then. there have been many wars fought in the name of god too. people are intolerant and power hungry whether or not they believe in god. and there are peaceful unbelieving people just like there are peaceful believers. i see none of this as proof for god.

 

[fadingfaith]

Occam’s razor is that “the simplest explanation for a phenomenon is most likely the correct explanation" - the Law of Parsimony. If two theories explain the same phenomenon equally well, than choose the simplest explanation.

What you’re thinking about is Blaise Pascal’s Pascal’s Wager. Pascal did have some very interesting insights though:

We understand this truth from Christ himself.

Often, when we hold beliefs that have been sustained by time and immaturity, they don’t have enough support to stand when reason strikes the pillars on which those tenants were held. I wouldn’t necessarily say that you lost your faith in God so much as you never had faith in Him before. Perhaps what your faith was in was what you’d been told or expected to believe about God.

If you can’t hear God’s words, tell him. If you can’t feel His heavy hand, tell him that you can’t. I’ll tell you what it’s like: your first relationship ending. You entered it blindly, unknowingly, thinking “this will never pass.” It passed. Your heart has been broken, and you wonder, “is there such a thing as true love?” Some will heave an apathetic “no…” while yet others will search vehemently to find out for certain.

My advice: start a new search for God and for Faith in God. I have faith that with a little endurance on your part, He’ll make himself known.

May God find you, may he bring you wisdom, may he show you light, and may he mend your broken heart, in Jesus’ name, Amen.

thank you primox. ive done things like this, i dont think ive ever stopped, and even when i think i have an answer i dismiss it because it seems unlikely to be from a god and not from my imagination, coincidences or something else explainable. i just cant attribute any of these things to god at this point. its not that life has handed me a hard blow recently or anything. things are actually really good for me and my family right now. we seem very blessed. i think more than anything i feel ungrateful for not attributing these blessings to god if thats where they originate but then again bad things happen to other people and should i attribute them to god?

 

[fadingfaith]

This is a critical point. Atheism makes the claim (for which they have absolutely no evidence, unlike the Judeo-Christian claims) that the world came into existence through non-supernatural means, or that it has existed forever.

what is the evidence that the judeo-christian claims have about the world coming into existence from supernatural means? the atheist claim is that we dont have the answers to exactly how it all began or if it even did begin at some point. it is open to discovering the truth and there are many possiblities. there is no reason to believe that it HAS to be supernatural. science has been debunking religious myths over and over again. why should i continue to hold onto these remaining ones and insisting that the remaining unknowns have supernatural explanations?

Christianity is built upon both faith and reason (evidence). Atheism is built only upon faith, since they offer no evidence for their position.

i have no reason to believe in the supernatural. atheism is the absence of faith. i only question my faith because of my reason.

 

[fadingfaith]

It seems a lot of your questions revolve around the question to know with any surety whether there is anything such as absolute truth. Well, that is a good question. After all, there are many views out there that seem to compete with each other.

It would be convenient to say that all religions (or for the sake of this thread we’ll call them ‘truths’) are subjective or relative depending upon one’s own belief. But if we make that claim, we’re immediately presented with a problem. If this statement is included in our new belief, then we are essentially saying that even this truth is relative and therefore isn’t always true. If we then take this statement (or belief) and hold it as an absolute for our new doctrine, then we are essentially making a case for an absolute while at the same time denying that an absolute even exists.

that was a little hard to follow but i think i get it yet. so how can anyone know anything? my brain is starting to hurt. sometime i think i just shouldnt think so much. im actually tired of trying to figure everything out and really, im not smart enough to know what is true.

The arguments about other gods and goddesses was always intriguing. I think the best explanation I heard concerning this was when J.R.R. Tolkein was talking with C.S. Lewis just prior to his conversion. While the actual talk went on for many hours (until the wee hours of the morning), the result was essentially this: there were many stories throughout history of gods coming to Earth and interceding in the lives of men (some even dying for them) - it appeared to be a universal theme. However, Tolkein showed Lewis that those stories were myths told by poets while Jesus Christ was a real person who lived in the real world. The ‘universal theme’ culminated in an actual person.

how do you know jesus was a real person? even that takes faith. i dont know of any proof that he was real or that these were really his teachings and not distorted and exaggerated by people. he almost sounds like a buddhist if he was real.

 

[fadingfaith]

Faith is definitely a gift. Pray to God and ask Him to give you this gift. Say a short prayer every day asking for the gift of faith and BE OPEN TO RECEIVING THE GIFT. It may not happen overnight - be patient (God is).

i have done that so much the past 6 years and yet my faith fades more and more. ive reached a point where what id perceive as being my own faith is really a self deception. at the times ive thought i had faith id say to myself: i dont really have a reason to believe though.

its hard to know if i have any faith left when things are going well. maybe if there was a tragedy in the family or something id find myself relying on religion again but i think it would be as a crutch and not really truthful. it would be my way of getting past the fear and pain. and if god is not real i want to be rid of those fears and crutches and live honestly. i would find a more philosophical (not sure thats the word) way to cope with life, like buddhism does. in other words i’d find some other way to reason through the hardship.

i t hink im all caught up in the replies. i’ll check in through the day. and thanks everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. i know it looks like im just shooting everything down and i dont mean to, i just want to see if there is something in our conversations that might stick and maybe thinking on it will enlighten me. so even though im arguing against everything im still giving everything consideration.

 

[PennitentMan]

Ha ha, i see you answered like i did! someone once said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. i just dont see evidence that cant be easily attributed to something natural. if god is real and wants us to know it why is he so elusive? he knows how much less intelligent than he we are yet he gives us very vague evidence?

Hey there FindingFaith.

Yeah, it seems like we are very much in the same place, you and I

It really does boil down to faith. Like you said, and rightly so, why would this god give this great grace of faith to some and not others. These and many other are little questions that plague our minds…most people chalk it up to devilish temptations and force them out of their minds. What they don’t realize is that it’s their logical questioning trying to tell them something. At some point the burning questions become too much and they need to be addressed. That’s where you are and I was not too long ago.

It just doesn’t make sense. The whole setup is just illogical. There is no evidence, no proof, it’s all hearsay. There’s revelation, but only to some. We just have to believe them. It’s all smoke and mirrors, and word of mouth. Believe because we say so…well, just because there is 1 billion people believing this, doesn’t make it fact. We require evidence. It’s exactly like you said. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have been searching, reading, praying, begging…and method I could find….to get some form of proof, some shred of hard evidence that all this is true, but all I found was myth and legends told and re-told by word of mouth over thousands of years. That’s it.
It all boils down to faith.

Also, something I wanna mention is that there are “Strong Atheists” and “Weak Atheists” and to be an atheist is not necessarily to deny that there is a god with every fiber of your being.

Strong atheism is a term generally used to describe atheists who accept as true the proposition “gods do not exist”. Weak atheism refers to any other type of non-theism.

It’s not as cut and dry as some posters here seem to think.

 

[CentralFLJames]

like i said, ive been looking at this site for a long time and yes i agree there is a rise in the number of people losing faith. i think seeing the arguments has had an affect on my faith but what do you do, make this a forum for believers only?

even christianity believes that there will be a falling away in the end times. why is it so hard to believe that this is the case now?

i cant believe youd simply attribute a growing number of people struggling with their faith to a game of some sort. why not simply pray for people who are losing faith instead of trying to determine who is being truthful and who is toying with you and then replying to a thread and accusing people of being disingenuous?

Sorry, your entire interaction style and projected attitude is not of one who is looking to be reinforced in the faith. You are on offense and actively bucking the help people are trying to give you and are trying to talk others out of their faith. I think you are being very disingenuous and I really think you lost your faith long ago (if ever you had it) and are a confirmed atheist looking to bring others into your camp thinking there is truth in numbers.

Audios.

James

 

[steve_b]

but they also have no problem believing anything else you tell them. thats the nature of children.

How do you escape your own criticism for your own position
fade:

few children will tell you there is no santa too unless theyve discovered for themselves or been told the truth.

And just what truth have you been given that there is no God?
fade:

but with faith there is a whole culture built around it and it doesnt just show itself for one season a year. its very hard not to believe when everyone around you believes

And this is your reason NOT to believe? tell me you have a better reason than
THAT
fade:

i think science has closed many of those gaps, at least for me it has.

What gaps has science closed that proves God does not exist?
fade:

it looks like the religious community are really struggling to reconcile their faith with science.

That’s only when science stops being scientific and becomes a faith itself.
fade:

more and more there are natural/scientific explanations for the things that once were attributed to god.

Like what?
fade:

i know the catholic church hasnt said evolution is impossible but it has to say that in order to be credible because the evidence to support evolution is so overwhelming.

Evolution couldn’t happen without God, because there would be NOTHING in the beginnjing to evolve.
fade:

maybe people of faith hold onto faith in god because science hasnt all the answers and may never have them all.

With that statement, you have replaced faith in God with faith in science. You replaced the creator with the created.
fade:

but i dont think there is anything wrong with saying we just dont know all the answers and we dont have to say its because there is some more intelligent being responsible for all of the unknowns.

IOW, you know you don’t have the answers, but you know for sure God doesn’t exist.

 

[fadingfaith]

Sorry, your entire interaction style and projected attitude is not of one who is looking to be reinforced in the faith. You are on offense and actively bucking the help people are trying to give you and are trying to talk others out of their faith. I think you are being very disingenuous and I really think you lost your faith long ago (if ever you had it) and are a confirmed atheist looking to bring others into your camp thinking there is truth in numbers.

Audios.

James

ok, bye james. im sorry to say youve misjudged me, but thats your problem not mine. there are other people here who wont jump to unfounded conclusions and i will talk with them.

 

[fadingfaith]

How do you escape your own criticism for your own position

what do you mean by this?

And just what truth have you been given that there is no God?

i have no reason to believe it. i cant think of any good logical reason to do so.

And this is your reason NOT to believe? tell me you have a better reason than
THAT

i think theres a reasonable explanation for why most people believe in god. like i said earlier i think its a way to explain the unknown.

What gaps has science closed that proves God does not exist?

most recently evolution for starters. it goes against the belief that god made us and everything the way the bible says he did. just looking at the beliefs of some tribes for instance and how they attribute everything they dont understand to a god. if it rains its because the gods are happy and if it rains too much they are mad, etc… but we know that rain is a natural occurance.

That’s only when science stops being scientific and becomes a faith itself.

well science can be proven and the supernatural cannot. i believe the things that can be proven. i cant build my life around something as obscure as the possibility that god exists simply because i cant prove he doesnt.

Like what?

see above

Evolution couldn’t happen without God, because there would be NOTHING in the beginnjing to evolve.

we dont know this. we dont know that there ever even was a beginning in the first place. we’d like to know what was before the big bang but we havent discovered this yet. you assume it has to be god because that doesnt conflict with your faith. i believe there are many potential possibilities more plausible than the god one, some of which have already been mentioned here. not having all the answers isnt uncomfortable for me. i dont understand why i have to believe everything originated with god.

With that statement, you have replaced faith in God with faith in science. You replaced the creator with the created.

i think i simply replaced faith with reason. science is reasonable because it uses everything i use to interact with the world to explain reality. in real life i use my senses and intellect to understand things. but faith is something else i’m not sure i can believe comes from reason and intellect. Unless i just havent been reasonable enough or intelligent enough to figure it out yet, but then that just raises the question about why god would only be understood by smarter people.

IOW, you know you don’t have the answers, but you know for sure God doesn’t exist.

i have never said i know for sure god doesnt exist. i said i cant find good reason to believe he does and i see many reasonable possibilities for why others do. if it were not for the beliefs of others i doubt i ever would have suspected the possibility of a god existing in the first place.

this may be premature since this conversation isnt even 24 hours old yet, but i’m feeling less hopeful that doing this is a good idea. i dont want other people to question their faith because i do, like james pointed out. thats why i wont even come out to my family about this. i guess its no better if i am causing people i dont know to doubt. even if i believed without a doubt that there is no god i wouldnt go about trying to convince people. thats no different than the other way around, right? because you can’t prove either case.

ok, that said, maybe what wxboss said is starting to make more sense.

 

[PennitentMan]

“ONLY in the eyes of the Church”? Those are God’s eyes guy. It’s hilarious that you are an atheist and hanging onto protestant ideas. Jesus said “bring the children to me”. He did not mention a single age restriction - ever. An infant dedicated to God in baptism is God’s.

God did not say “you must profess Jesus to be saved” - that would leave those that are mute or mentally handicapped or suffering alzheimer’s etc. to be out of luck.

James

Your argument is only valid if you believe in God.
Where I’m coming from is what is observable.

The claim is that god imprints himself on your soul at Baptism. After baptism, it’s not like the child, or teenager or grown-up for that matter start proclaiming god as true….essentially nothing happens to the child, there’s no new proclamations claiming that he sees or knows god….observing a child you will see no altering in their behavior, thought process or belief structure….unless it was taught to them from an outside source. But baptism alone does nothing what was claimed it does…not in the physical and intellectual realm of observation.
If god imprints him on your soul at baptism to the point that you know he is the true god and that he is actually there, the people who become aware of that doesn’t’ show or preach it at all. It remains in that magical realm and as such is only an opinion.

So, there is no observable evidence to support this claim.

 

[steve_b]

what do you mean by this?

You made the comment that “children have no problem believing anything else you tell them. thats the nature of children”.

Well, I’ve seen adults do the same because either they don’t think the issues through, or maybe they aren’t equipped to think the issues through.
fade:

i have no reason to believe it. i cant think of any good logical reason to do so.

Your logic is only as good as the information it has been given. Science can ony work with what is there. And what is there has age to it. Therefore what is there, wasn’t always there. That means before something was there, there was nothing. When science says that something just happened, or just appeared because that fits
a certain model, that is NOT science it is faith parading as science
fade:

i think theres a reasonable explanation for why most people believe in god. like i said earlier i think its a way to explain the unknown.

as I said previously, you don’t know how to explain the unknown, but you know for sure that God does NOT exist?
fade:

most recently evolution for starters. it goes against the belief that god made us

Oh really! Please explain
fade:

science can be proven and the supernatural cannot.

What does science say, is the source of all life?
fade:

i believe the things that can be proven.

i cant build my life around something as obscure as the possibility that god exists simply because i cant prove he doesnt.

you believe in what is created but you don’t believe in the one who created it.
fade:

we dont know that there ever even was a beginning in the first place.

WE?

Are you presuming to speak for the entire scientific community?
fade:

we’d like to know what was before the big bang but we havent discovered this yet.

But you know for sure it wasn’t God

%between%

 

[Primox]

Sorry, your entire interaction style and projected attitude is not of one who is looking to be reinforced in the faith. You are on offense and actively bucking the help people are trying to give you and are trying to talk others out of their faith. I think you are being very disingenuous and I really think you lost your faith long ago (if ever you had it) and are a confirmed atheist looking to bring others into your camp thinking there is truth in numbers.

Audios.

James

These are harsh words, friend. I regret to see things like this, because they’re usually the epilogue to a long season of spiritual dryness - and not the beginning of a rejuvenated heart. So then says the athiest, (such as you’ve called him) “Even the believers don’t believe in the Love of God; if they had, they’d’ve loved me too.”

 

[fadingfaith]

You made the comment that “children have no problem believing anything else you tell them. thats the nature of children”.

Well, I’ve seen adults do the same because either they don’t think the issues through, or maybe they aren’t equipped to think the issues through.

i agree. how does this help the case for faith?

Your logic is only as good as the information it has been given. Science can ony work with what is there. And what is there has age to it. Therefore what is there, wasn’t always there. That means before something was there, there was nothing. When science says that something just happened, or just appeared because that fits
a certain model, that is NOT science it is faith parading as science

if there is a first cause and the universe has not always existed, why does it have to have originated with god?

as I said previously, you don’t know how to explain the unknown, but you know for sure that God does NOT exist?

i answered you already. i did not say i know for sure that god does not exist and i did not say i can prove god does not exist but it seems more likely to me that he does not as, in my opinion, there is no reason to believe he does.

Oh really! Please explain

if evolution is true then why has god made up the story of creation in genesis? why not tell us the truth? the creation story sounds nothing like evolution to me. and if it only had some symbolic meaning then what other parts of the bible are only symbolic and up for interpretation? and why has it taken science, 2000 years after christ, to reveal this truth to the one true church, gods spokesperson on earth, if its teachings are without error?

What does science say, is the source of all life?

are you asking what the source of the universe is again? because ive already said science hasnt an answer and neither do i. i dont have a problem with not having the answer. i hope someday we have that answer, but not knowing does not = god.

you believe in what is created but you don’t believe in the one who created it.

no… i dont believe that its origins have to be a “one”.

WE?

Are you presuming to speak for the entire scientific community?

im saying we humans: you and i and the entire scientific community do not know the answer. there are only hypotheses and religious beliefs.

But you know for sure it wasn’t God

i dont know for sure anything and im not afraid to admit that. and this doesnt mean god is the answer. if it is god, it raises a lot of other problems with the claims of christianity and other religions which i’ve already mentioned.

 

[RosaryFan]

i have done that so much the past 6 years and yet my faith fades more and more. ive reached a point where what id perceive as being my own faith is really a self deception. at the times ive thought i had faith id say to myself: i dont really have a reason to believe though.

its hard to know if i have any faith left when things are going well. maybe if there was a tragedy in the family or something id find myself relying on religion again but i think it would be as a crutch and not really truthful. it would be my way of getting past the fear and pain. and if god is not real i want to be rid of those fears and crutches and live honestly. i would find a more philosophical (not sure thats the word) way to cope with life, like buddhism does. in other words i’d find some other way to reason through the hardship.

i t hink im all caught up in the replies. i’ll check in through the day. and thanks everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. i know it looks like im just shooting everything down and i dont mean to, i just want to see if there is something in our conversations that might stick and maybe thinking on it will enlighten me. so even though im arguing against everything im still giving everything consideration.

You say you’ve prayed for faith so much in the last 6 years. How do you know it was all for naught? It brought you to this forum, so on some level you must still be hanging on to Catholicism. I think that may be God answering your prayers. Like I said, it doesn’t happen overnight. Most often our growth in faith is so gradual, you hardly even realize it’s happening. Read all the responses to you on this thread and continue asking for knowledge, faith, wisdom to know the truth.

 

[fadingfaith]

You say you’ve prayed for faith so much in the last 6 years. How do you know it was all for naught? It brought you to this forum, so on some level you must still be hanging on to Catholicism. I think that may be God answering your prayers. Like I said, it doesn’t happen overnight. Most often our growth in faith is so gradual, you hardly even realize it’s happening. Read all the responses to you on this thread and continue asking for knowledge, faith, wisdom to know the truth.

i think its a good thing i finally did this. it definitely has me thinking.

 

[steve_b]

i agree. how does this help the case for faith?

Like everything else, If you want to learn truth, you pick your teachers carefully.
fade:

if there is a first cause

There is. And without the first cause there is no effect i.e. there is nothing.
fade:

and the universe has not always existed,

True. So it was created from nothing…correct?
fade:

why does it have to have originated with god?

Who can create from nothing?

Who can create this immense design and put it in motion?

cause and effect demands an answer. All you’re doing is focusing on, and absolutizing, effect without addressing the cause.

Cause comes first, NOT effect.
fade:

if evolution is true then why has god made up the story of creation in genesis? why not tell us the truth? the creation story sounds nothing like evolution to me. and if it only had some symbolic meaning then what other parts of the bible are only symbolic and up for interpretation? and why has it taken science, 2000 years after christ, to reveal this truth to the one true church, gods spokesperson on earth, if its teachings are without error?

Evolution is an effect. Who is the cause?
fade:

are you asking what the source of the universe is again? because ive already said science hasnt an answer and neither do i. i dont have a problem with not having the answer. i hope someday we have that answer, but not knowing does not = god.

i dont know for sure anything and im not afraid to admit that. and this doesnt mean god is the answer. if it is god, it raises a lot of other problems with the claims of christianity and other religions which i’ve already mentioned.

I refer back to the quote.

A fool says in his heart there is no God.

 

[fadingfaith]

Like everything else, If you want to learn truth, you pick your teachers carefully.

there are lots of people claiming to be teachers and they all teach conflicting things which cannot be proven.

as to the other questions, how long are we going to keep dancing like this? you want to insist there must be a “who” where we dont have the answer yet. i simply cant do that

 

[steve_b]

you want to insist there must be a “who” where we dont have the answer yet. i simply cant do that

That’s your choice.