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BlueEyedLady
Guest
I’ve long been aware of what he wrote. No one is arguing it. What I’m saying is that it is ridiculous to condemn the Lutheran faith over it.
My non-practicing Catholic mother wants to join the Lutheran church. What should I do?
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Gloria_de_G
Guest
mmmmm…
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lutheran_farmer
Guest
Many leaders, both secular and religious, hated Jews. Back then, there was open hostility towards Jews because “they killed Jesus”. Jews had a hard time everywhere in Europe. They could only have certain jobs, live in certain areas, and not hold public office. Luther had a mean streak and wrote some pretty nasty stuff, not just about Jews either. He calls the Pope the anti-Christ. Yeah, not nice.
He made some good points about how the Catholic church was going astray at that particular time. Does he deserve the status he enjoys now? Probably not.
Regarding modern psychopaths quoting long dead people…there isn’t any shortage of nasty and ignorant comments made by people throughout history.
Want a little ironic tidbit? My married name is from a Jewish ancestor of my husband’s (a very German name). A little old German WWII widow at our church called our son a perfect little German boy with his blue eyes and blonde hair. We were speechless.
He made some good points about how the Catholic church was going astray at that particular time. Does he deserve the status he enjoys now? Probably not.
Regarding modern psychopaths quoting long dead people…there isn’t any shortage of nasty and ignorant comments made by people throughout history.
Want a little ironic tidbit? My married name is from a Jewish ancestor of my husband’s (a very German name). A little old German WWII widow at our church called our son a perfect little German boy with his blue eyes and blonde hair. We were speechless.
S
skigirl1689
Guest
You do know Dietrich Bonhoffer, a Lutheran pastor stood up to Hitler, was part of a plot to kill Hitler, and died at the hands of the Nazis?
BTW, my Lutheran church condemns Luther’s anti-Semitic writings. Not to mention Catholic leadership was not completely innocent of anti-Semitic actions and attitudes.
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lutheran_farmer
Guest
He was a real hero.
Many in the Catholic church helped as well.
Many in the Catholic church helped as well.
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Demetra2
Guest
Getting back to the OP. The best help for your mother is to pray for her and talk to a priest about this. Also help her to find another Catholic church where she feels more at home. For a weak Catholic like your mom this is very important. Then encourage her to get involved with a Bible study or volunteer project at that Catholic church. Let her know how much you appreciate receiving the body and blood of Christ at your Catholic church. She would be giving up that sacrament at the Lutheran church. The fact that your dear mom is pro-choice and pro gay marriage shows that despite being a convert she has been poorly formed. But tackle that problem later. Also you should probably back off a little if you have been coming on too strong. It may irritate her to have her child give her guidance (although she needs it) or criticism. She has free will so all you can really do is have a heartfelt conversation and offer to help her find another CC and to pray ( especially the Divine Mercy Chaplet).
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WildCatholic
Guest
Just checking in. Thank you for getting back on topic
But how do I get my mom to understand that it is important? Also, she believes it is God up there and all that. That isn’t the issue. It’s the stupid social issues of abortion and gay marriage that keep her away. It doesn’t help that our priest harps on these (as he should, though my mom thinks he’s a hippocrate because he loves to go to the movies even though they are against his beliefs. She even said going to a film like the dark knight made him a hippocrite.) Our priest also is not very social with even me. We attend a small rural parish where we aren’t one of the big name families. Sure we attended all the time but we weren’t as prestigious as some. Not that I care but I think for my mother this gets her goat. In her Lutheran church she mentions how her pastor made an effort to greet her while our current priest doesn’t take interest even in a parish where maybe 25 people show up for a sunday mass. Also there aren’t really lay groups of people. Our church only has a K of C council and an Altar Society and in my mom’s opinion it’s clicky. I’d love to try and get her to the point that none of this matters and is about God, but I think social things are what makes a church in small town america.I don’t know if my mother is even capable of getting to that point at this point in her life. I really don’t know how to make the sacraments important to her like they are to me. I always tell her it doesn’t matter who the priest is or who’s attending, it’s about what God is doing, but she just nods her head and says “that’s nice”. I really don’t know how
But how do I get my mom to understand that it is important? Also, she believes it is God up there and all that. That isn’t the issue. It’s the stupid social issues of abortion and gay marriage that keep her away. It doesn’t help that our priest harps on these (as he should, though my mom thinks he’s a hippocrate because he loves to go to the movies even though they are against his beliefs. She even said going to a film like the dark knight made him a hippocrite.) Our priest also is not very social with even me. We attend a small rural parish where we aren’t one of the big name families. Sure we attended all the time but we weren’t as prestigious as some. Not that I care but I think for my mother this gets her goat. In her Lutheran church she mentions how her pastor made an effort to greet her while our current priest doesn’t take interest even in a parish where maybe 25 people show up for a sunday mass. Also there aren’t really lay groups of people. Our church only has a K of C council and an Altar Society and in my mom’s opinion it’s clicky. I’d love to try and get her to the point that none of this matters and is about God, but I think social things are what makes a church in small town america.I don’t know if my mother is even capable of getting to that point at this point in her life. I really don’t know how to make the sacraments important to her like they are to me. I always tell her it doesn’t matter who the priest is or who’s attending, it’s about what God is doing, but she just nods her head and says “that’s nice”. I really don’t know how
D
Demetra2
Guest
I understand what you are saying about the priest not being friendly and the parish cliques. That is why I think you need to go parish hunting and find another active vibrant church with more to draw her in. It goes without saying that we are at church to worship God and not to be entertained ,however, your mom is a weakly formed Catholic and she needs to feel welcome before she can ever come to accept church teaching. Her faith needs to increase even before she understands the reason behind Catholic teaching concerning abortion and gay marriage. I travel 30 minutes to another city to go to a church that has what I am looking for which includes bible studies to help me with my faith journey(the priest isn’t friendly on a one to one basis but gives great sermons). Call your archdiocese for help and hopefully they can advise you. It would be worth it for your mom’s soul to get her to a different Catholic church. The Lutheran Church can offer her a friendly hello but not the Eucharist. God Bless and continue to pray for her.
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WildCatholic
Guest
Okay, so one last thing (at least I hope
) my diocese isn’t big on people switching parishes. I kind of talked with someone who works for my diocese, and they said they want people to stay in parishes in their geographic area because the pastor has care of her soul and that she shouldn’t seek a parish just because she isn’t happy at our parish, and could only switch and become a member of another one with a letter from our pastor and the other one of the parish she would want to join. Even then i was told it would have to be for a good reason (like working in another city, thereby making it difficult to go to mass at your home parish) Now I know this is just a formality and my mom can attend any catholic church she wants, but she couldn’t become a full member. Besides we live in a pretty rural area. The nearest parish that has all of what you mention is probably an hour away. I do thank you though and wish I could implement your advice, and who knows maybe God will find a way to make this happen
) my diocese isn’t big on people switching parishes. I kind of talked with someone who works for my diocese, and they said they want people to stay in parishes in their geographic area because the pastor has care of her soul and that she shouldn’t seek a parish just because she isn’t happy at our parish, and could only switch and become a member of another one with a letter from our pastor and the other one of the parish she would want to join. Even then i was told it would have to be for a good reason (like working in another city, thereby making it difficult to go to mass at your home parish) Now I know this is just a formality and my mom can attend any catholic church she wants, but she couldn’t become a full member. Besides we live in a pretty rural area. The nearest parish that has all of what you mention is probably an hour away. I do thank you though and wish I could implement your advice, and who knows maybe God will find a way to make this happen
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BunnyLover
Guest
Hey Wild Catholic, I apologize if I missed some information but I wanted to skip over any digressions from the main topic. Okay my response looks long but a lot of it is outside quotes!
I don’t understand why you say your mom likes Pope Francis for the wrong reasons? I mean, who am I to decide what the right reasons are. I feel this Pope has a chance to really draw weaker Catholics back into the church.
We have horseblinders on when it comes to the issues I call the “Sex issues” contraception, abortion, gay marriage, etc. People who are suffering are being ignored because we are only thinking about sexual sins. The planet is dying, the imprisoned experience grave injustices, and the poor are starving. I am devastated that a woman is terminating her pregnancy, but maybe if I cared more about her life that lead to that decision she would never have thought to consider it! People assume the Catholic Church is in line with all conservative political ideology, which is far from the truth. In America at least, we are creating idolators by being so narrowly microscopically focused on sex! Your mom’s feelings are pretty fair.
So my advice, find the priest and church community that are more broad minded, and focus your mom on Church values she does agree with. The rest can come later. Feeling a lack of community is the biggest issue for those who lack intense faith. Thus, helping her find a sense of belonging and acceptance is your biggest priority. Being the only Catholic in your family, you may understand this. Sneak a green scapula into her room or purse and pray for her every day. As for switching parishes, keep asking a higher authority to give you permission or to have a serious talk with that priest. He is obviously not reaching his sheep, and I am sure he wants to do the best job he can. He might need help with his approach.
I know you know this, but don’t be so presumptuous as to inform someone else on the status of their own soul. This would drive anyway away.
Your mom reminds me of my ex, who converted to Catholicism in a hope I would take him back, and when I didn’t converted again to his new girlfriend’s religion. Staying in the church means nothing for her soul if her heart isn’t in it. She cannot fully convert for you or for her husband; she can only do it for God. You can’t force her heart. It’s sad, and I know that you want your mother to go to heaven, but you really don’t know if she won’t, because that isn’t your call to make.
Okay, my piece is done. If you have questions about how to come to terms with it and maintain a good relationship with her if she does leave, that’s a whole different answer. My sympathies for the pain this must have caused you
.
Sorry it’s long, but relevant quotes from Pope Francis follow from an article I will try to link. No, it’s not from the catechesis exactly but it is from the highest Catholic authority alive right now. I really hope they help you.
“if a …person is of good will and is in search of God, I am no one to judge. By saying this, I said what the catechism says. Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people, but God in creation has set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person.”
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time…
…I say this also thinking about the preaching and content of our preaching. A beautiful homily, a genuine sermon must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing. The homily is the touchstone to measure the pastor’s proximity and ability to meet his people, because those who preach must recognize the heart of their community and must be able to see where the desire for God is lively and ardent. The message of the Gospel, therefore, is not to be reduced to some aspects that, although relevant, on their own do not show the heart of the message of Jesus Christ."
I don’t understand why you say your mom likes Pope Francis for the wrong reasons? I mean, who am I to decide what the right reasons are. I feel this Pope has a chance to really draw weaker Catholics back into the church.
We have horseblinders on when it comes to the issues I call the “Sex issues” contraception, abortion, gay marriage, etc. People who are suffering are being ignored because we are only thinking about sexual sins. The planet is dying, the imprisoned experience grave injustices, and the poor are starving. I am devastated that a woman is terminating her pregnancy, but maybe if I cared more about her life that lead to that decision she would never have thought to consider it! People assume the Catholic Church is in line with all conservative political ideology, which is far from the truth. In America at least, we are creating idolators by being so narrowly microscopically focused on sex! Your mom’s feelings are pretty fair.
So my advice, find the priest and church community that are more broad minded, and focus your mom on Church values she does agree with. The rest can come later. Feeling a lack of community is the biggest issue for those who lack intense faith. Thus, helping her find a sense of belonging and acceptance is your biggest priority. Being the only Catholic in your family, you may understand this. Sneak a green scapula into her room or purse and pray for her every day. As for switching parishes, keep asking a higher authority to give you permission or to have a serious talk with that priest. He is obviously not reaching his sheep, and I am sure he wants to do the best job he can. He might need help with his approach.
I know you know this, but don’t be so presumptuous as to inform someone else on the status of their own soul. This would drive anyway away.
Your mom reminds me of my ex, who converted to Catholicism in a hope I would take him back, and when I didn’t converted again to his new girlfriend’s religion. Staying in the church means nothing for her soul if her heart isn’t in it. She cannot fully convert for you or for her husband; she can only do it for God. You can’t force her heart. It’s sad, and I know that you want your mother to go to heaven, but you really don’t know if she won’t, because that isn’t your call to make.
Okay, my piece is done. If you have questions about how to come to terms with it and maintain a good relationship with her if she does leave, that’s a whole different answer. My sympathies for the pain this must have caused you
.Sorry it’s long, but relevant quotes from Pope Francis follow from an article I will try to link. No, it’s not from the catechesis exactly but it is from the highest Catholic authority alive right now. I really hope they help you.
“if a …person is of good will and is in search of God, I am no one to judge. By saying this, I said what the catechism says. Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people, but God in creation has set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person.”
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time…
…I say this also thinking about the preaching and content of our preaching. A beautiful homily, a genuine sermon must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing. The homily is the touchstone to measure the pastor’s proximity and ability to meet his people, because those who preach must recognize the heart of their community and must be able to see where the desire for God is lively and ardent. The message of the Gospel, therefore, is not to be reduced to some aspects that, although relevant, on their own do not show the heart of the message of Jesus Christ."
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Annie39
Guest
I left the Church for about 10 years and joined the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. My oldest son who was around 12 at the time did not want to leave the Church with me and I didn’t insist. My son also wanted me to return but he didn’t talk about it he just gave me reading material, the first was Catholicism and Fundamentalism. I don’t know if this would be the right approach for your mom because I left the Church during many distressing problems within the Parishes that I attended. It seemed that the Church had left me. I recommend that you (as a very saintly Priest I know says) pray, pray, pray. Spend time in front of the Eucharist asking your other mother (Our Lady) to pray for your mom.My mother is a Catholic convert from Lutheranism (she was a part of the ELCA branch) and was active in that faith. She basically converted so she could marry my dad, who’s parents didn’t want him to marry a non-catholic. She also didn’t think that the two religions were that different (they aren’t, but still its the relativistic belief that all religions are the same, which I dislike a lot) However, she did practice with us kids and went to mass and received the sacraments in spite of being pro-choice and pro gay marriage and generally supporting liberal causes (not actively, it’s not like she is a NARAL member or anything like that
Anyway, she hasn’t attended church in about two or so years, but lately has felt called to return to a church. She likes Pope Francis (for the wrong reasons though) and also feels part of it is our current priest (he doesn’t really talk to us much, and this is a really small parish where he could easily try to make an effort, but thats for another post). However, she’s also considered returning to the Lutheran church (interestingly enough, an LCMS church, though i don’t think she cares, and in spite of their pro life stance i don’t think they are as active in the fight as the catholic church is).
My big question is what do i do. I’m the only strong Catholic in my family, and while i’m glad my mom wants to go back to church, what do I say when she says when she’s thinking of going to a non-catholic church? I would rather her go to a Catholic church (ii’ve often said if she can’t stand the priest at our parish, attended another one, since she doesn’t get the idea that a mass is about God and not the preacher/priest even though i’ve tried to explain it). However, i don’t know if she ever really became catholic in spite of going through RCIA since she really only did it to please my dad’s family. In all honesty I just want to know what to do about this situation, other than pray that is:thumbsup:. So what should I do? Sorry for the long post
God Bless!!!
WildCatholic!
Annie
A
Annie39
Guest
Please, Please do not find her a parish that is more broad minded if by that we mean that the priests have no problem with homosexuality, contraception, abortion etc.Hey Wild Catholic, I apologize if I missed some information but I wanted to skip over any digressions from the main topic. Okay my response looks long but a lot of it is outside quotes!
I don’t understand why you say your mom likes Pope Francis for the wrong reasons? I mean, who am I to decide what the right reasons are. I feel this Pope has a chance to really draw weaker Catholics back into the church.
We have horseblinders on when it comes to the issues I call the “Sex issues” contraception, abortion, gay marriage, etc. People who are suffering are being ignored because we are only thinking about sexual sins. The planet is dying, the imprisoned experience grave injustices, and the poor are starving. I am devastated that a woman is terminating her pregnancy, but maybe if I cared more about her life that lead to that decision she would never have thought to consider it! People assume the Catholic Church is in line with all conservative political ideology, which is far from the truth. In America at least, we are creating idolators by being so narrowly microscopically focused on sex! Your mom’s feelings are pretty fair.
So my advice, find the priest and church community that are more broad minded, and focus your mom on Church values she does agree with. The rest can come later. Feeling a lack of community is the biggest issue for those who lack intense faith. Thus, helping her find a sense of belonging and acceptance is your biggest priority. Being the only Catholic in your family, you may understand this. Sneak a green scapula into her room or purse and pray for her every day. As for switching parishes, keep asking a higher authority to give you permission or to have a serious talk with that priest. He is obviously not reaching his sheep, and I am sure he wants to do the best job he can. He might need help with his approach.
I know you know this, but don’t be so presumptuous as to inform someone else on the status of their own soul. This would drive anyway away.
Your mom reminds me of my ex, who converted to Catholicism in a hope I would take him back, and when I didn’t converted again to his new girlfriend’s religion. Staying in the church means nothing for her soul if her heart isn’t in it. She cannot fully convert for you or for her husband; she can only do it for God. You can’t force her heart. It’s sad, and I know that you want your mother to go to heaven, but you really don’t know if she won’t, because that isn’t your call to make.
Okay, my piece is done. If you have questions about how to come to terms with it and maintain a good relationship with her if she does leave, that’s a whole different answer. My sympathies for the pain this must have caused you
Sorry it’s long, but relevant quotes from Pope Francis follow from an article I will try to link. No, it’s not from the catechesis exactly but it is from the highest Catholic authority alive right now. I really hope they help you.
“if a …person is of good will and is in search of God, I am no one to judge. By saying this, I said what the catechism says. Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people, but God in creation has set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person.”
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time…
…I say this also thinking about the preaching and content of our preaching. A beautiful homily, a genuine sermon must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing. The homily is the touchstone to measure the pastor’s proximity and ability to meet his people, because those who preach must recognize the heart of their community and must be able to see where the desire for God is lively and ardent. The message of the Gospel, therefore, is not to be reduced to some aspects that, although relevant, on their own do not show the heart of the message of Jesus Christ."
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BunnyLover
Guest
Broad minded as in they actually CARE about other facets of Catholicism, such as serving the poor. It sounded like her church was a broken record that only cared about one thing.
M
Miss_Felicity
Guest
No, no, no and no! I read this as a form of bullying. One of the things that was impressed upon me in RCIA is that being Catholic means being part of a UNIVERSAL church. I can go to mass at my home Parish or the local Newman Center or on Vacation in New Orleans, Bolivia or China and hear the same readings (albeit perhaps in a different language) and the basics of the mass are the same. Its not her Parishes business why she wants to attend another and trying to force and bully someone into staying doesn’t sound to me like it is in line with Catholic teaching. I could be wrong but I have issue with this practice. Would they rather people sit home on Sunday, or go to a Protestant Church or do any number of things that take further from the faith as opposed to going to a different Parish?Okay, so one last thing (at least I hope
My advice for your mom is if there is another Parish she has an interest in, attend there if she wants to switch membership, see the secretary of the Parish she is going to, they can add her to the official rolls and send her envelopes to the right place.
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