My Opinion: Bad Answer From Ca

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rogerteder
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Rogerteder

Guest
he Church has never taught that Catholics go to heaven and non-Catholics and non-Christians go to hell. Those who are not Catholic can be saved. God gives all men an opportunity for salvation, since he wills all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). He is a just and merciful God.

Sections 846-848 of the Catechism deal specifically with the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church:

846 …all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body…"

Christ himself “explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” (ibid)

847" … Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

Lumen Gentium
  1. “All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation.”
This includes Jews and Muslims……
  1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind… for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.
Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”, the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”

Encourage your friend to investigate the true doctrine of the Catholic Church, and not to rely on what he believes to be Catholic teaching. I will be praying!

Further reading on this subject:

Dominus Iesus:
Click here: here

“No Salvation Outside the Church” by Father William Most
Click here
Last edited by Peggy Frye : Aug 9, '04 at 4:53 pm.

I do not like the very first statement!! The Church does in fact teach that those who die outside the Church are in fact deprived of heaven. (I am not necessarily saying Peggy is denying this point, but her first statement is a little ambiguous) Of course non-catholics have an opportunity to convert, and if they do so they will be saved if they die in the state of grace. People who are not formal (water baptism) members of the Church can be saved if they are invincibly ignorant of the Church and have the virtue of faith. Meaning: If they knew the truth they would believe. The truth is that the Church teaches that anyone who dies and is judged outside the Church is not saved, but will go to hell. I don’t like Peggy’s emphasis. In fact, Jesus Himself said the road is narrow that leads to salvation (and FEW WILL GO DOWN THAT ROAD), but the road to destruction is WIDE AND MANY WILL GO DOWN IT. True charity is telling the truth and helping others realize they are in grave danger if they don’t enter the one true Church Christ founded. May those who aren’t Catholic be moved by the Spirit and COME HOME AND ENJOY THE FEAST OF:thumbsup: THE HOLY EUCHARIST!!!
 
Rogerteder said:
The Church does in fact teach that those who die outside the Church are in fact deprived of heaven.
Click to expand...
You say one thing, and then immediately contradict yourself.
Rogerteder said:
People who are not formal (water baptism) members of the Church can be saved if they are invincibly ignorant of the Church and have the virtue of faith.
Click to expand...
When confronted with a contradiction, it is most likely that one or the other (or both) are false statements. Your first statement above is false, or, put more accurately not the whole story.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Who may be saved
“Catechism of the Catholic Church” Imprimi Potest. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict)

“Those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too may achieve eternal salvation”

My friend, take courage in these words from the Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic, LUMEN GENTIUM, solemnly promulgated by his holiness Pope Paul v1 on November 21,
1964
  1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits.
Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
 
I am sometimes sad that there is sometimes less emphasis placed on Jesus’ words than should be placed on the words of the saviour of the human race who is God’s Son, who is God as well as human. Jesus is the source of salvation and the foundation of the Church. Can we call ourself Christians if we don’t accept the words of Jesus the Christ?

Matthew 25 verses 31-46…Jesus’ words on who will be saved:
"The Last Judgement"
“When the Son of Man comes in all His glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory. All the nations will be assembled before him and he will separate men from one another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats.
He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left. then the King shall say to those on his right hand,” Come you whom my Father has blessed, take for your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food; I was a stranger and you made me welcome. I was thristy and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you made me welcome; naked and you clothed me; sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me.

Then the virtuous will say to him in reply, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome; naked and clothe you; sick or in prison and go to see you?

And the King will answer, " I tell you solemnly, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me."

Next he will say to those on his left “Go away from me with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, for when I was hungry you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in proson and you never visited me.”
Then it will be their turn to ask, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty; a stranger or naked, sick or in prison, and not come to your help?”
Then he will answer, "I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me." And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life.

And since Jesus is the very Person who will judge all of us, I think we have to accept HIS criterion for who may be saved! His criterion is salvation depends upon our charity towards other people, which He regards as charity directly given to Him
 
And what was that?

I don’t remember Jesus ever saying we had to be part of a church for salvation… I don’t remember the disciples teaching that either!
 
redeemedbyJesus said:
And what was that?

I don’t remember Jesus ever saying we had to be part of a church for salvation… I don’t remember the disciples teaching that either!
Click to expand...
We have to be repent, be baptized in order to be saved. Jesus is the source of our salvation. Believing is not the only way to be saved because even Satan believes and have seen God face to face.

The righteous people of the OT have never heard of Jesus but saw his glory but they were saved when Jesus came into salvation history. It is possible for someone who never heard Jesus to be saved. Since God himself knows the hearts and minds of the people. Only he can judge us by our deeds. Even atheist who never heard of Jesus to be saved because in his heart, God imprinted a natural moral law to do what is right.
 
An athiest is an unbeliever… the bible says they are condemned already because of their unbelief.

Being a good person is not how one gets to heaven.
 
mlchance said:
You say one thing, and then immediately contradict yourself.

When confronted with a contradiction, it is most likely that one or the other (or both) are false statements. Your first statement above is false, or, put more accurately not the whole story.

– Mark L. Chance.
Click to expand...
I didn’t contradict myself at all. Those" who through no fault of their own …" and could be saved (only God knows who they are) aren’t outside the Church. The Church is very clear that those who die outside the Church do NOT GO TO HEAVEN. You cant show one magisterial statement that says those who die outside the CHurch can be saved. I mean do I really have to quote council after council here. I hope we all know the quotes by now. I will quote them if you’d like.
 
I guess my main problem is, that it seems to me, that we always emphasize the fact that invincible ignorance exists etc etc—In my opinion the emphasis should be on the fact that non-catholics run an extreme risk of being damned. True charity is speaking the hard truths
 
That’s why Jesus commanded us to go out and preach the gospel!

I’d like to see some of those CC teachings that noone is saved outside of the church… I hear many conflicting things from Catholics so I’d like to know what official church doctrine is!
 
redeemedbyJesus said:
That’s why Jesus commanded us to go out and preach the gospel!

I’d like to see some of those CC teachings that noone is saved outside of the church… I hear many conflicting things from Catholics so I’d like to know what official church doctrine is!
Click to expand...
You can look them up yourself—the Church teaches that those die outside the Church are deprived of heaven. Those who are ignorant of the Church and the ignorance IS NOT THEIR FAULT CAN BE SAVED!!! Very important----the ignorance cannot be their fault!!! They also must not have any other mortal sins on their souls. Also, most recently Dominum Jesus said that non-catholics are at a profound DISADVANTAGE for salvation.
 
Dominus Iesus number 22

“If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92”
 
redeemedbyJesus said:
And what was that?

I don’t remember Jesus ever saying we had to be part of a church for salvation… I don’t remember the disciples teaching that either!
Click to expand...
Yes, but we have to be a member of the mystical Body of Christ which, of course, is His Church. In Catholic theology anyone who is a member of the mystical Body of Christ is, by definition, a member of the Catholic Church (invisible). This includes those on earth (The Church Militant), those who have died but have not yet gone to Heaven (the Church Suffering) and those who are in Heaven (the Church Triumphant). Not everyone who identifies themselves as a “Catholic” is definitively said to be a member of the Catholic Church (invisible, mystical body).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top