My Opinion: No Piercing At Jesus' Side

[ralphinal]

Are you saying during Jesus time, the death penalty was the electric chair?

I think it is more accurate to say that Valke is suggesting that there were not as many crucifixions as we might otherwise think.

Crucifixion, in my understanding, was used by Rome to send a signal. That is why all of the leaders of the Rebellion led by Sparticus were Crucified. With any signal, the more you use it, the more it loses as a warning. If we see it as such, there is a good chance that there may have been less than 20 a year in occupied Jerusalem.

 

[swariffin]

** There was an item 9 in the post of Bill Pick as follows:

. **

1. It was known that a very good physician was at hand. I for get his name. He had brought lot of medicines to heal the wounds of Jesus. Perhaps it was 50 Kilo of herbs.

Does any one apply herbs to dead people?

Dear Planten, I would like to put your theory into a test. Can you come to me. I will stab you with a spear, and apply 50 Kilos of Myrrh, and let see whether your theory indeed correct.

 

[Ben_Masada]

You told me that the soldiers were guarding the tomb, even by quoting Matthew, did you not? Don’t tell the story of bribery that the soldiers agreed to take some bribe money at the risk of their own stake.

Yes, I did, for a few hours from around ten in the morning of that Saturday until sunset when the Sabbath was over. And with regards to the bribe money, it’s not me to tell. If you read Matthew 28:15, it says in there that “The soldiers pocketed the money and did as they had been instructed.” Read it.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4857039:

swariffin;4856870:

Ben Masada;4851063:

Then how come the Jewish trick failed to save the temple in 70AD?

Unfortunately, the Jews were divided and fighting among themselves within for quite some time. Some Historians
say that if they had been united against the Romans, the Temple
could have been spared from destruction. Think of Masada, where
the Romans lost thousands of soldiers to only a pocket of a few
hundreds Jewish worriers.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

That is why Jesus was against the rule of the Jewish tradition at that time. Observing man-made rule and regulations, but sacrificing the love to other human.

Sorry, but you are confusing Jesus with Paul.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

It’s also possible that that almost no one was ever crucified. There’s very little physical evidence for it. In fact, I believe there is only one skeleton that was discovered to have suffered crucifixion. Does that mean that we should believe almost no jews or anyone else was ever crucified by the Romans?

Read Flavius Josephus. He says in there in the volume “The War of the Jews” that one living in the immediacies of a crucifixion site would some days look at it and not be able to count the number of crucified. The special thing about Jesus is that he was the one picked up by Paul to throw the foundations of his Church.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Why, then, did most of those credited with instituting Christianity willingly die before recanting what you say they “manufactured” to support their allegedly false religion?

 

[ralphinal]

Yes, I did, for a few hours from around ten in the morning of that Saturday until sunset when the Sabbath was over. And with regards to the bribe money, it’s not me to tell. If you read Matthew 28:15, it says in there that “The soldiers pocketed the money and did as they had been instructed.” Read it.

Ben:

Wait, I am confused. Here is the passage from Matthew

While they were going, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had happened.
12 They assembled with the elders and took counsel; then they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers,
13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him while we were asleep.’
14 And if this gets to the ears of the governor, we will satisfy (him) and keep you out of trouble.”
15 The soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has circulated among the Jews to the present (day).

They were bribed to say that the body was stolen and NOT tell what really happened.

Is that your position?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Wait, I am confused. Here is the passage from Matthew

They were bribed to say that the body was stolen and NOT tell what really happened.

Is that your position?

Yes. You say above that you are confused. You can say that again because you are doubly confused. What did I say? That the soldiers pocketed the money and did as they had been instructed. How were they instructed? To spread around that they were sleeping while the disciples came by night and stole the body.

In this very badly fabricated slander you are ready to believe. But that Joseph of Arimathea generously bribed the Centurion so that the spear-piercing did not occur, you can’t believe. Very convenient!

Ben:

 

[ralphinal]

Yes. You say above that you are confused. You can say that again because you are doubly confused. What did I say? That the soldiers pocketed the money and did as they had been instructed. How were they instructed? To spread around that they were sleeping while the disciples came by night and stole the body.

In this very badly fabricated slander you are ready to believe. But that Joseph of Arimathea generously bribed the Centurion so that the spear-piercing did not occur, you can’t believe. Very convenient!

Ben:

So, you are saying that there was no resurection because these men were willing to take a bribe to say that there was no resurection?

There was no time that Jesus was stabbed because they were bribed not to do it?

In other words, they were bribed to tell the truth in one case and lie in another?

 

[Thing]

Yes. You say above that you are confused. You can say that again because you are doubly confused. What did I say? That the soldiers pocketed the money and did as they had been instructed. How were they instructed? To spread around that they were sleeping while the disciples came by night and stole the body.

In this very badly fabricated slander you are ready to believe. But that Joseph of Arimathea generously bribed the Centurion so that the spear-piercing did not occur, you can’t believe. Very convenient!

Ben:

But you said you don’t believe the jews bribed the guards, that the jewish were above that.
Then you say you believe that Joseph bribed the guards to lie.

Very convenient!

Thing.

 

[Thing]

How many people reading this are waiting for The Messiah?

I think he will have a rough time, they don’t believe in him already.

 

[MHalsey]

Yes. You say above that you are confused. You can say that again because you are doubly confused. What did I say? That the soldiers pocketed the money and did as they had been instructed. How were they instructed? To spread around that they were sleeping while the disciples came by night and stole the body.

**In this very badly fabricated slander you are ready to believe. But that Joseph of Arimathea generously bribed the Centurion so that the spear-piercing did not occur, you can’t believe. Very convenient!
**
Ben:

We don’t believe your lies because you have no proof. Your only proof is that in the Bible the guards were bribed, therefore Joseph of Arimathea must have bribed the centurion. Besides your “tradition”, you have no proof for that contention, and therefore it is without merit.

 

[MHalsey]

So, you are saying that there was no resurection because these men were willing to take a bribe to say that there was no resurection?

There was no time that Jesus was stabbed because they were bribed not to do it?

In other words, they were bribed to tell the truth in one case and lie in another?

I think he’s the one that’s confused.

 

[Ben_Masada]

But you said you don’t believe the jews bribed the guards, that the jewish were above that.
Then you say you believe that Joseph bribed the guards to lie.

Very convenient!

Thing.

That’s not a matter of being convenient or not. If you weight the reasons why Joseph bribed the Centurion and the reasons for the priests to bribe the soldiers, you will see that it didn’t make any sense for the priests to bribe the soldiers.

When Joseph of Arimathea bribed the Centurion it was part of the agenda that Jesus would have to leave Israel immediately in order not to complicate things for everyone implicated. That’s exactly what happened within 40 days according to Luke 1:3. Only the Apostles knew where Jesus had gone to.

Now, for the so-called story that the priests bribed the soldiers, the instructions were for the soldiers to spread around that while they were sleeping the disciples had come by night and stolen the body. That for the Roman authorities meant death without trial. Both priests and soldiers knew about that. Therefore, it never happened.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

We don’t believe your lies because you have no proof. Your only proof is that in the Bible the guards were bribed, therefore Joseph of Arimathea must have bribed the centurion. Besides your “tradition”, you have no proof for that contention, and therefore it is without merit.

Take it easy, Halsey. We are not lying to each other here. We are discussing the pros and cons about events in
the Scriptures. So, if we are civil we will be able to learn a lot from
each other.

I am sure you understand my reasoning. The problem is that you feel threatened by a reasonable attack to your faith, and you are not sure you will be able to take it. Perhaps against the many years that you believe thus. I know that habit is the worst thing to break, especially in matters of religion. But it will be okay.

Ben:

 

[Thing]

That’s not a matter of being convenient or not. If you weight the reasons why Joseph bribed the Centurion and the reasons for the priests to bribe the soldiers, you will see that it didn’t make any sense for the priests to bribe the soldiers.

When Joseph of Arimathea bribed the Centurion it was part of the agenda that Jesus would have to leave Israel immediately in order not to complicate things for everyone implicated. That’s exactly what happened within 40 days according to Luke 1:3. Only the Apostles knew where Jesus had gone to.

Now, for the so-called story that the priests bribed the soldiers, the instructions were for the soldiers to spread around that while they were sleeping the disciples had come by night and stolen the body. That for the Roman authorities meant death without trial. Both priests and soldiers knew about that. Therefore, it never happened.

Ben:

Before you or I say another word, post your source for this accusation:
Ben Masada:

If you weight the reasons why Joseph bribed the Centurion

 

[MHalsey]

Take it easy, Halsey. We are not lying to each other here. We are discussing the pros and cons about events in
the Scriptures. So, if we are civil we will be able to learn a lot from
each other.

I am sure you understand my reasoning. The problem is that you feel threatened by a reasonable attack to your faith, and you are not sure you will be able to take it. Perhaps against the many years that you believe thus. I know that habit is the worst thing to break, especially in matters of religion. But it will be okay.

Ben:

No, I don’t feel threatened. Insulted, yeah, but threatened not in the least. Since you want to discuss events in scripture, can you point me to the scriptural evidence that describes Jesus NOT being lanced, J of A bribing the centurion, John not really a jew, and spiriting away of Jesus to a foreign land?

The problem is that your attack on my faith has no basis in reality. And when faced with the reasoned refutations of your claims, you must compound your unfounded beliefs with even more outrageous claims. In your words, “I know that habit is the worst thing to break, especially in matters of religion. But it will be okay.” Give it a try.

 

[Valke2]

This is one of the more confusing threads I’ve read in a long while. If I were to ask any of my fellow jews what they thought about the validity of Jesus being peirced by a spear on the cross, they would look at me like I was crazy.

 

[ralphinal]

This is one of the more confusing threads I’ve read in a long while. If I were to ask any of my fellow jews what they thought about the validity of Jesus being peirced by a spear on the cross, they would look at me like I was crazy.

What confuses me is that the “Jews” would not bribe the guards to tell one story, but a “Jew” would bribe them to disobey a direct order.

I see your point. I think the New York Jew Answer would be “Who friggin’ cares? What I should know from Jesus? Ask the Catholics”