My Opinion: No Piercing At Jesus' Side

[paarsurrey]

The opposite is true Ridgerunner; if the Romans were on the habit to do this to rush or to check if a crucified was dead or not, I could give it a shot and believe Jesus’ spear-piercing. But it was not a Roman custom and they wouldn’t give a damn to do this. They didn’t care the least if the Jews would get annoyed with Jews hanging from crosses on the Sabbath. Sorry Ridgerunner, but it didn’t happen.

Ben:

Hi

Sorry Ridgerunner, from me too.

I love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

po18guy;4827861:

Interesting opinions, but you completely discount the scriptural references to both the incident, as well as the eyewitnesses. Under the Mosaic Law, two or more witnesses established a fact. There were many more than two witnesses to this.

Eyewitnesses! Who were they? Can you mention one at least? Don’t say there were many out there that day. No Judge on a Court of Law would accept such “there were many eyewitnesses.” Okay, under the Mosaic Law, two or more witnesses would be enough to establish a fact, and only the fourth gospel reports such a case without eyewitness. Sorry guy
because your client would be convicted without witnesses.

Ben:

Hi

There were no eyewitnesses po18guy, I agree with Ben Masada. John says he was there, but Matthew did not mention him, in my opinion.

i love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Reuben J;4828164:

We can speculate but it is unmistakably written in the Bible. Christians will fall back to the word of God when there is doubt and to stand by it.

The Word of God? I wish Jesus was alive for you to ask him what was the Word of God. He would definitely tell you because the only Scriptures he ever saw or knew was the Tanach.

Ben:

Hi

Well said, Ben Masada, in my opinion.

I love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Reuben J;4828164:

John 19:33-37.

Reuben, when someone is about to say the truth, he or she has no need to make it so hard sure that what is going to be said is the truth. Psychology dictates that when someone warns that what he or she is going to tell the truth, be aware that you will be listening to a lie. Foucus on the text above
and see how much the writer struggles that we should believe the spear-piercing, because: 1) The man who saw it has given his testimony. All he needed was to make up a name for the man who saw it. 2) And his testimony is true. What makes him so special that his testimony cannot be a lie? 3) He knows that he tells the truth. How does he know? Why all this “making sure” people will believe? 4) And he testifies. The author did not need four times. Two was enough to make the case already unbelievable. He had to fall in his own trap.

Ben:

Hi

Fine Ben Masada, in my opinion.

i love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908

Thanks

 

[bilop]

Eyewitnesses! Who were they? Can you mention one at least?
Ben:

The Blessed Mother, Martha, Mary Magdalene, and John the Evangelist.

That’s 4 eyewitnesses.

Why do you believe the Old Testament so readily, but dismiss the New Testament? We know far more about the provenance of the New Testament. Also, we know three of the four Evangelists suffered martyrdom (and they tried to martyr John, but the Lord saved him) rather than recant their Gospel teachings.

God Bless

 

[paarsurrey]

Reuben J;4828164:

Believe what, that he had been spear-pierced or
that he was alive? That he was alive. That he was just like anybody else. That he was no ghost. That he had survived the cross. But that he could not continue with the group or he would be crucified again and implicate the Centurion and Joseph of Arimathea. That he had to go. And that they all should take care that the Sect did not die, and that they should keep on promoting Jesus’ teachings.

Ben:

Hi

That seems reasonable and logical from **Ben Masada **in my opinion.

i love Jesus , Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Reuben J;4828164:

28Thomas said to him,“My Lord and my God!”[/qoute]

That’s not Jewish. That’s the hand responsible for most of the interpolations in the NT. A Jew who confesses three times everyday that “God is One and the only Lord,” would never call another man Lord or God. Even Jesus himself used to confess that statement of Jewish faith if you read Luke 12:29.

29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” [/quate]

That’s stereotypically Pauline rhetoric.

Ben:

Hi

In my opinion Ben Masada is correct.

I love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by **paarsurrey: **
How you know for one that it is the same spear/lance?

Kindly mention the source.

The Holy Lance
here

Hi

Your source says it is a conjecture, in my opinion; if I am wrong kindly tell me:

newadvent.org/cathen/08773a.htm

And further it is tempting, even if rash, to conjecture that the name Logginos, or Logchinos is in some way connected with the lance (logche). Be this as it may, a spear believed to be identical with that which pierced our Saviour’s body was venerated at Jerusalem at the close of the sixth century,

newadvent.org/cathen/08773a.htm

Kindly try another source for certainty.

I love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908

Thanks

 

[Cluny]

2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take Jesus off the cross and report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.

---

I’ve been a Christian all my life and this is the first I’ve heard of such a tradition.

Sound. as spurious as the “Jewish tradition” that the blood of Christian babies was used as making matzoth for Pesach.

 

[Cluny]

In my opinion Ben Masada is correct.

Your opinions don’t matter, paarsurrey, because neither your opinions nor Ben Masada’s are based on truth or reality.

 

[ralphinal]

There is another part to the story that you folks are ignoring.

Why was Jesus crucified? Because some Jewish leaders forced Pilot into it by making it look like a riot was at hand if he was not. Now, is it totally illogical for those same people, since they already had the mob assembled, to make it seem like leaving the bodies on the cross would cause another riot?

Now, let’s say that is true. Pilot would have ordered the men to make sure they were dead. Breathing on a cross is next to impossible the longer you are up there. Jesus was not moving anymore, so they could assume that he was dead. The spear was shoved into him, and the resulting blood and water were separate, proving he was dead.

And, on a more personal note, I am SICK AND TIRED of people on here calling the early Christians liers. You people disgust me with your willingness to degrade the fore-fathers of my faith so you can embrace heresy and follow heathens. Peter, John, Jesus’s mother Mary have all been called LIERS by you people. You have no respect for them at all. Over and over we see that you people HATE those who loved Jesus. That is all I am going to say on the matter.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

A thing comes to my mind. I see there is a lance , the head or tip of which is said to have a stain of the blood, perhaps of Jesus.

There is also blood on the Shroud of Turin.

Both the relics are with the Catholics; it should be tested if the blood on both the relics is of one and the same person.

It is no difficult with the present day scientists, in my opinion.

I love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

And, on a more personal note, I am SICK AND TIRED of people on here calling the early Christians liers. You people disgust me with your willingness to degrade the fore-fathers of my faith so you can embrace heresy and follow heathens. Peter, John, Jesus’s mother Mary have all been called LIERS by you people. You have no respect for them at all. Over and over we see that you people HATE those who loved Jesus. That is all I am going to say on the matter.

And then they will say their prophet is being abused …

 

[paarsurrey]

Peter, John, Jesus’s mother Mary have all been called LIERS by you people. You have no respect for them at all. Over and over we see that you people HATE those who loved Jesus. That is all I am going to say on the matter.

Hi

Well I don’t remember anybody said here that about Jesus or Mary. Kindly quote if somebody said that. I don’t think so. Please be patient as Catholics are supposed to be, in my opinion.

i love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908

Thanks

 

[bilop]

Hi

A thing comes to my mind. I see there is a lance , the head or tip of which is said to have a stain of the blood, perhaps of Jesus.

There is also blood on the Shroud of Turin.

Both the relics are with the Catholics; it should be tested if the blood on both the relics is of one and the same person.

It is no difficult with the present day scientists, in my opinion.

I love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908

Thanks

The blood on the Shroud and the Sudarium of Oviedo (head cloth) have been tested, and are both the same type. Also, the blood stains on both indicate that the wounds match.

I do not know if the spear has been tested, but, I would imagine that the soldier cleaned his spear many times after then, and no blood would have survived.

God Bless

 

[planten]

Jesus died before being pierced. And what is being discussed is whether or not Jesus was pierced at all. Since the lance which pierced His side is still around, I think anyone would have to say Yes, he was pierced. But people who doubt Jesus was crucified must doubt he was pierced, or else come up with an unhistorical account of the piercing (otherwise known as a lame excuse).

**Eucharisted, Thanks for explaining that to me. Now another matter comes to mind.

Jesus walked 70 miles quietly, disguised, to Galilee and met his friends there. He took fish and honey to eat there. He showed the friends his wounds in hands. He must have had a good wound in the side too because of the lance piercing. Did jesus show that wound to the friends or he did not mention it at all.

The doubting Thomas must have tried to see that wound.

It appears that the apostles at Galilee were not knowing anything about any wounds because none of them was there at the site of the Crucifixion. It also appears that Jesus had the same old body and same old soul. There was no change. He had the suffering soul like all mankind.

Does a God have a suffering soul? We are slowly learning about christianity and its complications.**

 

[Valke2]

The blood on the Shroud and the Sudarium of Oviedo (head cloth) have been tested, and are both the same type. Also, the blood stains on both indicate that the wounds match.

I do not know if the spear has been tested, but, I would imagine that the soldier cleaned his spear many times after then, and no blood would have survived.

God Bless

I thought that jesus “bled” water when he was pierced? There shouldn’t be any blood on the spear.

 

[bilop]

I thought that jesus “bled” water when he was pierced? There shouldn’t be any blood on the spear.

Blood and water.

St. John, Ch. 19.

31 Then the Jews, (because it was the parasceve,) that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath day, (for that was a great sabbath day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 The soldiers therefore came; and they broke the legs of the first, and of the other that was crucified with him. 33 But after they were come to Jesus, when they saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it, hath given testimony, and his testimony is true. And he knoweth that he saith true; that you also may believe.

 

[Valke2]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[NDfan]

**Eucharisted, Thanks for explaining that to me. Now another matter comes to mind.

Jesus walked 70 miles quietly, disguised, to Galilee and met his friends there. He took fish and honey to eat there. He showed the friends his wounds in hands. He must have had a good wound in the side too because of the lance piercing. Did jesus show that wound to the friends or he did not mention it at all.
The doubting Thomas must have tried to see that wound**

Planten scripture records Jesus as showing his wounds to Thomas because Thomas said he wouldn’t believe Jesus was resurrected until he saw the wounds and actually put his fingers in them. So Jesus obliged Thomas.

It appears that the apostles at Galilee were not knowing anything about any wounds because none of them was there at the site of the Crucifixion. It also appears that Jesus had the same old body and same old soul. There was no change. He had the suffering soul like all mankind.

A suffering soul? What does that mean? From scripture we know that GOD feels hurt when HIS children turn on HIM. GOD may not feel physical pain and suffer in that regard like we do. But that’s as a result of the fall of mankind. Christianity really has no complications but people tend to complicate it because they deny the claims.

PEACE