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inJESUS
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And all these conspiracy theories of bribing, lying, deceit and unfaithfulness to say that among thousands of crucified people by the Romans, only Jesus did not die
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narrowpath
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A question, paarsurrey. There are general epistles of St. Paul in the NT, but how can you say it’s all Paul? What about the Gospel’s, and the other letters by James, Peter, Jude, and John? and the anonymous writer of Hebrews? It’s not all Paul, as you seem to say.
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swariffin
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No Piercing At Jesus’ Side
Here are three reasons why Jesus was never pierced at his side on the cross:
1- The custom to rush the death of all the Jews crucified by the Romans was Jewish and not Roman; and the practice was done only on Fridays, so that the bodies would not be left hanging during the hours of the Sabbath. And the method was leg-breaking and not spear-piercing. The Romans wouldn’t care less if the Jewish Sabbath got desecrated by the bodies on the crosses.
2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take Jesus off the cross and report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.
3 - That Centurion and his men could never by their own accord pierce Jesus after their recognition that Jesus was indeed the son of God. This is for lack of any other option, a confession that they had converted themselves to the Cause of Jesus. That’s in Matthew 27:54. Besides, there was no such a Roman custome to spear-pierce a crucified to check if he was dead.
The first and third reasons dispense with any other evidence that the piercing of Jesus’ side by a Roman spear was an interpolation by either the writer of the Gospel 50+ years after Jesus had been gone or by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE, when they selected the books into the Canon of the NT.
Ben:
- Jesus was already dead at the time of leg breaking, in order to disable those crucified to raise their body for breathing. If they are stubbed to death, then death become too quick for the criminals. Since Jesus is already died by appearance (there was no electronic device attached to Jesus to detect his heart beat), then a test must be given to ensure the certainty of death. Who knows that Jesus “pretended” to die to escape leg breaking ceremony, but actually faced more cruel way of test, by stubbing.
- A soldier must do in accordance with his superior. If Pilate allowed Joseph to take Jesus’ body, then Pilate must be convinced that Jesus has died. Since Pilate was not in Golgotha, then he must have ordered his subordinate to do so. His subordinate who carried Pilate’s order may not has to be the same as the centurion who lead the crucifixion “ceremony”.
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swariffin
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By the time Jesus was pierced, He was already a dead man.
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swariffin
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Are you saying that the gospel is the work of Paul? Paul is afraid of plagiarism, you know. Unlike Muhammad who like to copy from others and declare it the word of God.
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swariffin
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po18guy;4827861:
Interesting opinions, but you completely discount the scriptural references to both the incident, as well as the eyewitnesses. Under the Mosaic Law, two or more witnesses established a fact. There were many more than two witnesses to this.
The unusual is that it didn’t happened. You don’t know of any other case, because you have never read Josephus, who says that Pilate was so cruel that he would even provoke the Jews just to have a chance to crucify some. Another evidence that you have never read Josephus is to believe that Pilate would wash his hands to get rid of the blame for the death of Jesus. Pilate! No, not Pilate. This idea was born in the antisemitic mind of either the gospel writer or the Editors when they put together the books they needed into the Canon of the NT. The objective of this picture of Pilate by Christianity is to transfer the blame for the death of Jesus from the Romans to the Jews.
Oh! That’s the most common thing in the beginning of a religion and in Countries where there is religious oppression. At the time of the Aiatolla Homenni hundreds of Bahai believers were executed and never retracted. And today it’s very common among Muslems. They even explode themselves in
the hope for the promises of their faith in the afterlife. What does it prove that it happened in the beginning of Christianity? Nothing.
Ben:
Who misunderstood Jesus of calling Elijah when He in fact called God “Eloi, Eloi”. (b) Who complained to Pilate that he should not write “INRI”? (c) Who hit the nail? In Jesus side, there were at least 3 person underneath the cross. John, Mary the Mother of Jesus, and Mary Magdalene.
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swariffin
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swariffin
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They did that Paar, on one occasion it was tested near to where I live. And yet, some scientist say the shroud of Turin is a fake, and some disagree. Even in the world of scientist, there was no single opinion of the shroud.
One reason they test the shroud, because it related to the RCC. If the test regarding the authenticity of Quran, perhaps, they would have been beheaded by somebody.
If you ask me, I would say I don’t know. I never pay too much faith in the shroud, anyway.
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swariffin
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Forgive him, Paar. Don’t you believe that Allah is merciful?? If you do, why don’t you be merciful too?
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swariffin
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Not just cleaning. The spear must be sharpened too.
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paarsurrey
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Hi
I know Jesus and Mary who died a respectful and natural death in India, in my opinion. He went their with his mother Mary and some faithfu friends, in my opinion. Jesus did not write anything himself or Jesus did not dictate anything himself for others, in my opinion. Jesus did not authorise anybody to write a gospel on his behalf till he went to India from Galilee.
Whetever spread in Jesus absence was Paul’s clever working, he wrote or injected his ideas in the spreading things on his instance, in my opinion. Paul cannot hide behind others, in my opinion.
I love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908.
Thanks
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swariffin
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With Mohammadism kind of logic, you will get nothing. Even the Jews are wrong according to Muhammad.
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paarsurrey
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Hi
Yes, I forgive him. May GodAllahYHWH bless him!
I love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908
Thanks
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swariffin
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Then why the destruction of Jerusalem temple occured in 70AD? If Pilate was strong at that time, he would have dismissed all the Jewish leader disturbing his privacy. If they create chaos, then the destruction of the temple would occur in 33AD.And I have only two things to tell you: First is that nobody would force Pilate into crucifying a Jew, because, according to Josephus, Pilate was so cruel that for more than several times he would provoke the Jews just to have a reason to crucify some of them.
You said the above for two reasons: Because you don’t read Josephus and because you have assimilated the antisemitic attitude to transfer the blame for the death of Jesus from the Romans to the Jews.
The other thing I need to tell you is that the real people who hate Jesus, Mary and Joseph are those who claim that Jesus was what he was not, starting with the virgin birth, which has caused a lot of shame to the whole family of Jesus among the Agnostics, who are only ready to assign to Jesus a Roman for a father.
Ben:
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Robert_in_SD
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Where are you getting your information regarding Roman crucifixion practices. I’d like to see some reliable source material for your supporting facts.The opposite is true Ridgerunner; if the Romans were on the habit to do this to rush or to check if a crucified was dead or not, I could give it a shot and believe Jesus’ spear-piercing. But it was not a Roman custom and they wouldn’t give a damn to do this. They didn’t care the least if the Jews would get annoyed with Jews hanging from crosses on the Sabbath. Sorry Ridgerunner, but it didn’t happen.
Ben:
Also, I think that Ridgerunner makes a good commonsense argument that you have not really addressed. The gospel account tells that blood and water poured out of the wound, which would indicate that death had already occurred, so it seems more plausible that the spear was used to confirm death, rather than hasten death.
And is this theory of yours supposed to support the conclusion that Jesus did not die on the cross? If that is so, and Jesus was somehow spirited away by Joseph, then Jesus certainly would not have been up and walking around just days after being subjected to a scourging followed by a beating by the Roman cohort and the actual crucifixion itself. And would he have been able to walk with the disciples on the road from Jerusalem just days after these events?
Do you simply reject the NT documents out of hand because they are christian? Do you not give any historical significance to the documents?
Peace,
Robert
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swariffin
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John indeed was there, because he took Mary the Mother of Jesus to live with him for the rest of her life. He would not have done so without Jesus asking him to do so.The blessed Mother and Mary Magdalene were indeed there but they had nothing to say about Jesus being spear-pierced on his side. John was not there. But even if he was, he was not the one who wrote the fourth gospel. Go back and look for at least two witnesses because you still don’t have them. I am sorry.
Ben:
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swariffin
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And even escape away to live happily ever after in India according to Paarsurrey.And all these conspiracy theories of bribing, lying, deceit and unfaithfulness to say that among thousands of crucified people by the Romans, only Jesus did not die
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swariffin
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No matter what you say in your posting, I believe you are a peaceful muslim.
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josie_L
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Excuse me, Ben but how many witnesses does one need in order to validate an event? And if it wasn’t John who wrote the Gospel, who else could it be. I need logical answers and reliable sources for me to accept what you say. And what are you sorry for . . . being intellectually dishonest, well you’re forgiven.The blessed Mother and Mary Magdalene were indeed there but they had nothing to say about Jesus being spear-pierced on his side. John was not there. But even if he was, he was not the one who wrote the fourth gospel. Go back and look for at least two witnesses because you still don’t have them. I am sorry.
Ben:
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Ben_Masada
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At least two, I guess. But I accept a legitimate one if you can bring it to me.Excuse me, Ben but how many witnesses does one need in order to validate an event? And if it wasn’t John who wrote the Gospel, who else could it be. I need logical answers and reliable sources for me to accept what you say. And what are you sorry for . . . being intellectually dishonest, well you’re forgiven.
The guy who wrote the fourth gospel was a Gentile disciple of Paul’s. For two reasons, John did not write that gospel: First, John was a Nazarene and none of the writings of the Nazarenes was approved into the Canon of the NT, because of their controversial character vis-a-vis the writings of Paul.
And second, the Nazarenes never preached about those non-Jewish teachings of that gospel. Proof of it is that the Nazarenes coexisted peacefully with the Jerusalem Jews for about 30 years until Paul arrived and was nearly killed for preaching heresy. If you are not familiar with your NT, get back to me and I will insert the quotations for all the facts above.
Ben:
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