My Opinion: No Piercing At Jesus' Side

[codebilly]

…
What math are you referring to? And btw, why would it be impossible for the Romans to have killed all of the priests?
And there would be no priests in the diaspora. The only place a priest would be found would be at the Temple. The destruction of the Temple effectively destroyed the priest class. …

27 chapters of the Torah are dedicated to offering (priestly) sacrifice, at the entrance of the Tent or the Temple.

Are you suggesting even for one second, that the entire nation of Israel and its constituents throughout the world would offer sacrifice at only one place. That too is easy to refute with biblical references.

The sacrifices, and their sacrificial rites were taking place throughout the entire nation and including its diaspora.

"The temple itself stood opposite, on the other side of the courtyard. It was rectangular in shape (20 x 2.5 m.), with stone-built benches along its walls and an altar on which animal bones and ash were found, testifying to its use as a sacrificial altar." – see: Ein Gedi

No sacrifice could be made save by a priest. You can find many many altars via archeological evidence and many implied by reference from the scriptures.

Priests were the attendants of altars and temples, not altar boys.

The priests of various lines and houses were all throughout Israel and the diaspora. The altars and remnants of sacrifices are found well beyond Jerusalem.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;4877309]

Hebrews 7:11
If, then, perfection came through the levitical priesthood, on the basis of which the people received the law, what need would there still have been for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not reckoned according to the order of Aaron?
12
When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well.

Ben:
All the above is Pauline rhetoric. Don’t forget that Paul was an apostate from Judaism when he decided to found Christianity. In fact, Paul contradicted Jesus himself with regards to the Law. Jesus said he didn’t come to abolish and Paul insisted that he did as if Jesus was lying. Read Ephesians 2:15.

Gabriel of 12;

Wait a minute slow down, you have taken a bit more than you can chew, and your starting not to make no more sense at all: Paul was sent by the Jewish leaders to persecute, Kill, and incarcerate “CHRISTIANS” who were already existing. Where do you get the idea that Paul a Jewish Lawyer invented Christianity? Your own religious community already confirmed Jesus founded the Catholic faith, not Paul. So are you outside of your own Jewish religious community? or do you Jews have protestants also?

Ben;
Now, read Matthew 5:19. It says in there that we are all supposed to do exactly the same. To observe every letter of the Law. That’s what Jesus said himself.

Gabriel of 12:
Quote:
Ben, Ben, did you know the Laws Jesus commanded us Christians to follow fulfill the Law and the Prophets? which are Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and the second is just like the first, Love your Neighbor as yourself:

Ben:
Jesus never commanded Christians anything. Christians started about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. The only obligation of Christians is to observe the Noahite laws.

Gabriel of 12:
Jesus commanded Christians to eat his body, and drink his blood, Jesus commanded his followers Christians to go out into all the world and baptise, teach, and feed every tribe, nation, and tongue and people everything that Jesus taught them. For the old covenant was called to this but failed at it, because the flesh could not accomplish what the Spirit fulfills.

Ben:
Nevertheless, the same Jeremiah says that if Israel ever disappears, the natural laws will cease to exist. Then, general catastrophe will hit the Universe.

Gabriel of 12:
Quote:
Ben dont you remember when the time ran out for the old covenant in 70 a.d. Also remember the natural catastrophic event that destroyed the temple when the sinners crucified Jesus Christ? All these events took place on a small scale, the final one will take place when Jesus returns again not to save, but to bring eternal salvation to the saved.

Ben:
You are completely out of tune with reality. The
The Covenant of God with Israel is as eternal as the natural laws.

Gabriel of 12:

Yes the Covenant of God with Israel eternal. The natural Covenant is close to disappearing which pertain to the natural laws which could not save humanity. The New and Everlasting Covenant of God now rest’s in the continuing dynasty of King David, in his Lord Jesus Christ. The natural covenant is temperal as with the natural flesh that goes to dust, but the Spirit of the Lord is Eternal, this is the New Israel of God where God dwells in every Heart and mind of his children beginning with the 144000 Jews who became Christians; who left Jerusalem from destruction.

 

[ralphinal]

Ben has separated the Followers of the Way from Christianity. This is historically inaccurate. The Followers of the Way in Acts were the Jewish Followers of Jesus who, for the most part, walked with him.

Honestly, it is like a Muslim claim. MUSLIM!!!

 

[Valke2]

27 chapters of the Torah are dedicated to offering (priestly) sacrifice, at the entrance of the Tent or the Temple.

Are you suggesting even for one second, that the entire nation of Israel and its constituents throughout the world would offer sacrifice at only one place. That too is easy to refute with biblical references.

Absolutely 100% the only place to do sacrifices was at the Temple. That is not to say Jews didn’t stray and offer sacrifices at other alters. That don’t make them priests. The only job for the priestly class was at The Temple.

The sacrifices, and their sacrificial rites were taking place throughout the entire nation and including its diaspora.

Again, any sacrifice done in the diaspora would be improper and against the laws set forth in the Torah. Specifically in those 27 chapters you mentioned.

No sacrifice could be made save by a priest.

Correct. And no sacrifice could be made anywhere except at the Temple.

 

[codebilly]

Absolutely 100% the only place to do sacrifices was at the Temple. That is not to say Jews didn’t stray and offer sacrifices at other alters. That don’t make them priests. The only job for the priestly class was at The Temple.

Again, any sacrifice done in the diaspora would be improper and against the laws set forth in the Torah. Specifically in those 27 chapters you mentioned.

Correct. And no sacrifice could be made anywhere except at the Temple.

Nice try. But that is not what the bible says:

“If his holocaust offering is from the herd, it must be a male without blemish. To find favor with the LORD, he shall bring it to the entrance of the meeting tent and there lay his hand on the head of the holocaust, so that it may be acceptable to make atonement for him.” - Lev. 1:3-4

I’d challenge you to find a single reference in Jewish history or biblical reference of any non priest (or prophet) making an animal sacrifice. Only a priest can make an animal sacrifice. So explain this:

In the Chalcolithic period (4th millennium BCE), a temple was erected at the Ein Gedi oasis which served as a* cultic center for the nomadic tribes of the region. The temple compound was built on a rock terrace above the spring. It consisted of several separate single-roomed stone structures, built around a large courtyard which was surrounded by a wall. The temple complex was reached via a gateway, consisting of a square chamber with benches. The temple itself stood opposite, on the other side of the courtyard. It was rectangular in shape (20 x 2.5 m.), with stone-built benches along its walls and an altar on which animal bones and ash were found, testifying to its use as a sacrificial altar.***

That temple was in tact during the time of Christ. Who would “flee” an oasis?

And again, the point is that temples were built as “cultic centers for nomadic tribes”.

Why would such a practice stop?

 

[Valke2]

Nice try. But that is not what the bible says:

“If his holocaust offering is from the herd, it must be a male without blemish. To find favor with the LORD, he shall bring it to the entrance of the meeting tent and there lay his hand on the head of the holocaust, so that it may be acceptable to make atonement for him.” - Lev. 1:3-4

I’d challenge you to find a single reference in Jewish history or biblical reference of any non priest (or prophet) making an animal sacrifice. Only a priest can make an animal sacrifice. So explain this:

Gladly. The Ten of Meeting was where sacrifices were done before the Temple was built.

And again, the point is that temples were built as “cultic centers for nomadic tribes”.

Why would such a practice stop?

I’m not sure what you are getting at. During and after Exodus, the time place and manner of sacrifices was expressly set forth. And the place was expressly limited to the Tent of Meeting and then the Temple. Most likely because Hashem understood the Jews need to worship as they had in the past, through sacrifice. But in order to ensure that such sacrifice was not pagan related, the rules changed to reinforce monotheism/worship of Hashem. One of the ways this was done was to restrict where sacrifices could be made.

You may want to read Joshua 22:9-34. And then there is this:

You may not worship Hashem your God in such a manner. This you may do only on the site that Hashem your God will choose from among all your tribes to place His Name there. You must seek His Presence, and you must go there. You will bring there your elevated offerings, your eaten sacrifices, your tithes, your hand-delivered elevated gifts, your general and specific pledges, the first born of your cattle and flocks…" (Deut. 12:4-6).

 

[Valke2]

And then we have:

"You will not do then what we do here now, where each person does as he sees fit. For you have not yet come to the resting place and hereditary land that Hashem your God giving you. When you cross the Jordan and you settle the land that Hashem your God is allotting you, and Hashem has granted you safety from all your enemies around you, and you are living securely, there will be a place that Hashem will choose to rest His Name there. It is to there you must bring all that I command you, your burnt elevated offerings, your eaten sacrirfices, your tithes, your elevated gifts, and all your choice pledges that you might pledge to Hashem" (Deut 12:8-11).

 

[codebilly]

And then we have:

"You will not do then what we do here now, where each person does as he sees fit. For you have not yet come to the resting place and hereditary land that Hashem your God giving you. When you cross the Jordan and you settle the land that Hashem your God is allotting you, and Hashem has granted you safety from all your enemies around you, and you are living securely, there will be a place that Hashem will choose to rest His Name there. It is to there you must bring all that I command you, your burnt elevated offerings, your eaten sacrirfices, your tithes, your elevated gifts, and all your choice pledges that you might pledge to Hashem" (Deut 12:8-11).

I’ve included a number of references below for your review. The evidences points to the fact that Hezekiah’s reform was not completely successful or even enforced.

The bible also calls into question the “reform” itself.

*Consider the 1983 discovery by Israeli scholar Adam Zertal, who unearthed a huge sacrificial altar on Mount Ebal, north of Jericho. Its construction perfectly matches the specifications described in Deuteronomy 27:4-8, which was later built by Joshua (Josh. 8:30-35). * - see ref 1

The description of the temple in 1 Kings 6-8 suggests a building like Iron Age temples excavated in northern Syria at 'Ain Dara and Tell Taiynat. The temple consisted of an ulam, or vestibule, in which stood two bronze ceremonial pillars. The ulam led to a large “house” flanked by lower storerooms (yasia), on three sides. In a courtyard* before the temple stood the sacrificial altar**.* – ref 2

A newer temple, with a large round stone altar, dates to about 500 years later. It was then connected to a two-room temple. The first room was a pillared vestibule, the second is the main worship area with the altar. Under this temple was another monumental building, apparently belonging to the first, older temple. Its corridors were chock-full with sacrificial animal bones. — meggido

• The temple complex was reached via a gateway, consisting of a square chamber with benches. The temple itself stood opposite, on the other side of the courtyard. It was rectangular in shape (20 x 2.5 m.), with stone-built benches along its walls and an altar on which animal bones and ash were found, testifying to its use as a sacrificial altar.* Ein Gedi

“all the Israelites present went out into the towns and the cities of Judah and smashed the sacred pillars, hacked down the sacred poles, and demolished the shrines and the altars throughout Judah and Benjamin, and in Ephraim and Manasseh, until they had made an end of them all” * –* 2 Chr 31:1**

“if you tell me that you are relying on the LORD your God, is he not the god whose shrines and altars Hezekiah has suppressed, telling Judah and Jerusalem they must worship at this altar in Jerusalem?” - ( 2 Kgs 18:22; also Isa 36:7; 2 Chr 32:12)

“As for the priests of Aaron’s line in the common lands attached to their cities and towns, in every place men were nominated to distribute portions to every male among the priests and to everyone among the Levites who was on the register” (2 Chr 31:19)

Evidence of a four-horned altar has been found as well as religious objects such as three iron shovels, a small horned altar, and an iron incense holder - Dan

There seems to be no period in ancient Israel’s history when sacrifice was not an important part of religious practice — (many references to sacrificial offerings )

 

[Valke2]

I did not dispute that there were periods of time where jews offered sacrifices in places other than the Tabernacle (Temple). However, such was done despite the express provisions of the Torah and you can’t say that these improper sacrifices were done by priests, as that class is defined in the Torah. This is especially true as many of the outside sacrifices that you refer to were made to pagan Gods.

 

[codebilly]

I did not dispute that there were periods of time where jews offered sacrifices in places other than the Tabernacle (Temple). However, such was done despite the express provisions of the Torah and you can’t say that these improper sacrifices were done by priests, as that class is defined in the Torah.

What I am saying is that all those people having real authentic priestly lineage could not have been concentrated (living) solely in Jerusalem.

I don’t believe it could be remotely possible to wipe out the Jewish priestly lines by destroying the temple of Jerusalem.

Also, its clear (from scripture and archeology) that there would have been dispute about offering sacrifice outside Jerusalem.

Hence, the coming of Christ, His Sacrifice, “The Way” would have been viewed by those priests ostracized by the priestly lot in Jerusalem, as a liberation.

There had to be priests outside of Jerusalem and the Romans couldn’t have wiped them out.

One may point to Paul as the sole Jewish priest that spearheaded Catholic Liturgical practices, but the vast and I mean vast overwhelming evidence show that various Liturgies with deep Jewish roots emerged independently of Paul.

These rites/rituals had to come from Jewish priests because the Apostles weren’t priests, nor necessarily educated.

A large number of the first priests had to be Jewish priests.

 

[codebilly]

… the outside sacrifices that you refer to were made to pagan Gods.

Not necessarily. While there may have been pagan practices, there certainly were those not consider pagan as referred to in Chronicles. There is evidence that priests outside Jerusalem were allowed or permitted to continue offering sacrifices as long as they were not considered a threat to the king.

Considering the will of the Jewish people as a whole, and as expressed throughout the OT, there is no way, that priests outside Jerusalem would simply lay down their priestly right, heritage, and lineage at the command of a king and his army … especially those considering themselves “righteous in the eyes of God”.

I think it is far more realistic and logical to conclude that the Jewish priestly families were not completely concentrated in Jerusalem. I don’t accept that. It’s preposterous.

 

[planten]

**We have lost interest in this topic because it has become too much involved. The opinion is divided whether Jesus was stabbed or not. Nobody really knows whether Jesus was stabbed while up on the cross or while he was flat on the ground.

No harm. Many other things are not known about Jesus. Almost thirty (30) years of his life are hidden from view. Let us please get on to some other topic now. Thanks**.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

**We have lost interest in this topic because it has become too much involved. The opinion is divided whether Jesus was stabbed or not. Nobody really knows whether Jesus was stabbed while up on the cross or while he was flat on the ground.

No harm. Many other things are not known about Jesus. Almost thirty (30) years of his life are hidden from view. Let us please get on to some other topic now. Thanks**.

Gabriel of 12:

No interest lost here; there are no opinions of the Spear that wouded Jesus side in his death.

There is just belief in the Gospels of Jesus Christ that it is recorded as historical eyewitness fact that Jesus was indeed speared in his side at his crucifixion fulfilling the prophecies of the prophets.

The other is unbelief in Jesus crucifixion and the denial of the recorded historical accounts from both the Jewish account, the Pagan Roman records and the four Gospel accounts about Jesus crucifixion. Now all these historical peoples cannot all be lying or in denial when their historical records prove the Spear wounded Jesus at his crucifixion.

In summary, either you believe the historical factual evidence or not. But no opinions are revealed in this thread only belief or unbelief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[planten]

**Okay, Gabriel of 12, I will believe that Jesus was stabbed with spear if you will tell me exactly at what stage it was done. And please give reference from bibleNT gospel. Is it mentioned in only one gospel or all four?

If there is any news about that type of stabbing in the bibleOT for Jesus and you know about it then mention that too with reference. Thanks.

I lost interest because I could not understand the high level views of the posters.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben has separated the Followers of the Way from Christianity. This is historically inaccurate. The Followers of the Way in Acts were the Jewish Followers of Jesus who, for the most part, walked with him.

Honestly, it is like a Muslim claim. MUSLIM!!!

No, I have not. I defend that the followers of the New Way were Jewish followers of Jesus. I am only asserting that they were not Christians but Nazarenes. The New Way was the name given to a Jewish sect, and Christianity was never a Jewish sect.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Gabriel of 12;4877309][/QU

Gabriel of 12;

Wait a minute slow down, you have taken a bit more than you can chew, and your starting not to make no more sense at all: Paul was sent by the Jewish leaders to persecute, Kill, and incarcerate “CHRISTIANS” who were already existing. Where do you get the idea that Paul a Jewish Lawyer invented Christianity? Your own religious community already confirmed Jesus founded the Catholic faith, not Paul. So are you outside of your own Jewish religious community? or do you Jews have protestants also?

.

Sorry Gabriel, but you are not thinking. The Jewish leaders never sent Paul to persecute the disciples of Jesus in Damascus as he Paul says in Acts 9. I’ll tell you why not. The headquarters of the disciples of Jesus was in Jerusalem. Why would Paul go to Jerusalem for letters from the Priests to persecute Jesus’ disciples in Damascus? If this makes sense to you, you are beyond repair.

And the above is just one reason for that nonsense. The second reason is that the Priests in Israel, a different Country, had no jurisdiction over Damascus to send an envoy to arrest people in another Country. Just think Gabriel, and the truth will set you free.

Ben:
[/quote]

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4878189:

allhers;4878069:

Sometimes it pays to read and think, and in all things, pray.
usccb.org/nab/bible/zechariah/intro.htm

(If you follow all the links and footnotes, etc…it looks like only the tribe of Judah remained loyal to David’s house.)

Yes, as a Tribe, you are right. Only Judah remained. But not because they were loyal to God, but because they were redeemed by Israel, according to I Kings 11:36 and Isaiah 9:8. Then, many from the other Tribes joined in plus all the converts.

Ben:

 

[ralphinal]

No, I have not. I defend that the followers of the New Way were Jewish followers of Jesus. I am only asserting that they were not Christians but Nazarenes. The New Way was the name given to a Jewish sect, and Christianity was never a Jewish sect.

Ben:

Oh. Well, prove the disconnect. We hold that they were one in the same.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Oh. Well, prove the disconnect. We hold that they were one in the same.

Easy! Take a look at Acts 9:1-3. When Paul came to Jerusalem for letters from the Priests to arrest Jesus’ disciples in the synagogues of Damascus, he said that they were those who were living according to the New Way.

Three years later he decided to come up to Jerusalem to join the Sect of the Nazarenes. He was rejected though, because Jesus’ disciples in Jerusalem were afraid of him due to his history of persecutions in Damascus.

Why would they be afraid if they were not of the same disciples of the New Way? Therefore, the Sect of the Nazarenes and the New Way were one and the same.(Acts 9:26)

Ben:

 

[planten]

Gabriel of 12;

Wait a minute slow down, you have taken a bit more than you can chew, and your starting not to make no more sense at all: Paul was sent by the Jewish leaders to persecute, Kill, and incarcerate “CHRISTIANS” who were already existing. Where do you get the idea that Paul a Jewish Lawyer invented Christianity? Your own religious community already confirmed Jesus founded the Catholic faith, not Paul. So are you outside of your own Jewish religious community? or do you Jews have protestants also?

**Gabriel, we cannot believe all that you say. You may say there were followers of Jesus but you should not call them christians please. Christ and Christians is all Greek. The matter had not travelled to Greece yet, by 33 A.D.

Saul was on his wy to Damascus to persecute the Jews who were following Jesus. That much is understood. The most that the Jewish leadership undertood was that Jesus was on a different path. That is all. Was it going to develop into a new religion, they even did not dream of it then, for many more years.

Saul did whatever he did. That is between the Jews and the christians. If the christians feel that he was good then it is for them. He took the new philosophy to Greece and permitted the Greeks and gentiles to consume the flesh of swine. He said that Jesus had delivered them from the law of Moses and that law was a curse.

Later writings of the gospels, even though, may not have been teh same as they are today, written by the name of mathew, Mark, Luke etc must have been well examined and manipulated (minutely examined and altered) before the council in Year 325 A.D. The philosophy of saul worked there into teh four gospels too. The rest of it was already from Saul.

Please consider these things. 300 years is a long time. Why there is no mention of Paul in the gospels while so called Paul was active in the field? Why there is nothing about the life of Jesus from any quarter for the first 30 years? Was it not all planned that way?**