My Opinion: No Piercing At Jesus' Side

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Sorry Gabriel, but you are not thinking. The Jewish leaders never sent Paul to persecute the disciples of Jesus in Damascus as he Paul says in Acts 9. I’ll tell you why not. The headquarters of the disciples of Jesus was in Jerusalem. Why would Paul go to Jerusalem for letters from the Priests to persecute Jesus’ disciples in Damascus? If this makes sense to you, you are beyond repair.

And the above is just one reason for that nonsense. The second reason is that the Priests in Israel, a different Country, had no jurisdiction over Damascus to send an envoy to arrest people in another Country. Just think Gabriel, and the truth will set you free.

Ben: 🙂
Gabriel of 12:

If you accuse me of not thinking, then you must of bumped your head;

By the time Paul got his personal revelation from God himself, the Christians who were Jews who were following the Messiah Jesus in “The Way”, have already begun to celebrate the Christian Mass on Sunday’s and were continuing to celebrate the Liturgy of the Word in the Jewish synagouges.

Paul left Jersusalem with the authority of the Jewish leaders by Letter with authority to arrest, and persecute Christians in the synagouges outside of Jerusalem in Damascus (this is how diplomacy is still done today). It was not till later that the Jews excommunicated the Christians from all Jewish synagouges everywhere, which resulted in the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d.

What makes you think the Christians headquarters was in Jersusalem? “The Way” Began there, Peter moved about proclaiming Jesus Crucified. James was in Jerusalem maintaining a Chrisitan community, not dictating the Christian Evangelizers. So your “why not” does not hold any water in the first century.

This topic deals with the pierced side of Jesus. Can you corrolate what Paul’s ministry has to do with Jesus Pierced side?
 
Gabriel of 12:

If you accuse me of not thinking, then you must of bumped your head;

By the time Paul got his personal revelation from God himself, the Christians who were Jews who were following the Messiah Jesus in “The Way”, have already begun to celebrate the Christian Mass on Sunday’s and were continuing to celebrate the Liturgy of the Word in the Jewish synagouges.

Paul left Jersusalem with the authority of the Jewish leaders by Letter with authority to arrest, and persecute Christians in the synagouges outside of Jerusalem in Damascus (this is how diplomacy is still done today). It was not till later that the Jews excommunicated the Christians from all Jewish synagouges everywhere, which resulted in the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d.

What makes you think the Christians headquarters was in Jersusalem? “The Way” Began there, Peter moved about proclaiming Jesus Crucified. James was in Jerusalem maintaining a Chrisitan community, not dictating the Christian Evangelizers. So your “why not” does not hold any water in the first century.

This topic deals with the pierced side of Jesus. Can you corrolate what Paul’s ministry has to do with Jesus Pierced side?
That’s exactly as I told you: You are beyond repair. Can you prove to me that Paul was after Christians in Damascus? No, you cannot, because there isn’t even the slightest hint at that.

But then, again, were they Nazarenes? I’ll prove it to you. After three years, when Paul went up to Jerusalem with the purpose to
join the Nazarenes and was allowed a probation time on a trial basis, and went thoughout Jerusalem preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrectged, the local Jews had him within reach to condemn him to death for preaching apostasy in Jerusalem, when the Nazazrenes saved him and shipped him back to Tarsus where he belonged.

After 14 years Paul returned, was arrested and taken to Court by Ananias, the High Priest with a Lawyer to condemn him. But because of what the Nazarenes had done by saving his life 14 years before, Tertullus, the Lawyer accused Paul as a ringleader of the Sect of the Nazarenes. You can read this in Acts 24:1-9.

Now, do you understand what Sect of Nazarenes was that Lawyer talking about? They are the disciples of Jesus according to the New Way, which would make converts from even among the Pharisees. I hope I helped you this time.

Ben: 🙂
 
Ben Masada;4844784:
Maybe you’re hard of reading but Adrift answered your question. The apostles passed on the teachings of Christ as well as the details of his life orally, and then they and others eventually inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote the Gospels. Our deposit of faith is composed of the oral and written word. You state that Mark was written 40 years after Christ resurrected and the other Gospels some years later. Do you know that most historical documents/manuscripts were written hundred of years after the actual events, and yet are considered reliable by Historians. The New Testament manuscripts (and the dates in which they were written) were unique in that they were written so close to the actual event. You may want to read “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. He started off as an Atheist.
Thanks for the information:thumbsup:
 
Easy! Take a look at Acts 9:1-3. When Paul came to Jerusalem for letters from the Priests to arrest Jesus’ disciples in the synagogues of Damascus, he said that they were those who were living according to the New Way.

Three years later he decided to come up to Jerusalem to join the Sect of the Nazarenes. He was rejected though, because Jesus’ disciples in Jerusalem were afraid of him due to his history of persecutions in Damascus.

Why would they be afraid if they were not of the same disciples of the New Way? Therefore, the Sect of the Nazarenes and the New Way were one and the same.(Acts 9:26)

Ben: 🙂
You did not finish reading the passage. Read Acts 9:27 on. Paul was in fact taken to be one of the Brethren. Stopping short is not an acceptable move. Did you not watch Seinfeld?

It might also do you some good to read Acts 15:1-29. Paul is CLEARLY shown as being part of the group and taking orders from them. It also explains when the Church lifted the regulations on Gentile Converts.
 
That’s exactly as I told you: You are beyond repair. Can you prove to me that Paul was after Christians in Damascus? No, you cannot, because there isn’t even the slightest hint at that.

But then, again, were they Nazarenes? I’ll prove it to you. After three years, when Paul went up to Jerusalem with the purpose to
join the Nazarenes and was allowed a probation time on a trial basis, and went thoughout Jerusalem preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrectged, the local Jews had him within reach to condemn him to death for preaching apostasy in Jerusalem, when the Nazazrenes saved him and shipped him back to Tarsus where he belonged.

After 14 years Paul returned, was arrested and taken to Court by Ananias, the High Priest with a Lawyer to condemn him. But because of what the Nazarenes had done by saving his life 14 years before, Tertullus, the Lawyer accused Paul as a ringleader of the Sect of the Nazarenes. You can read this in Acts 24:1-9.

Now, do you understand what Sect of Nazarenes was that Lawyer talking about? They are the disciples of Jesus according to the New Way, which would make converts from even among the Pharisees. I hope I helped you this time.

Ben: 🙂
Gabriel of 12:

Quit bumping your head against the goad Ben: Here is your proof. Saul before he became a Christian Paul was given authority to persecute ALL Jews who were following “The Way of the Nazorean Jesus” to whom all of his followers recognized as Christians. Please enjoy your read, I pray it open your eyes from such foolish arguments you have placed here;

Nazorean is the title given Jesus in the Kerygma 2:22, 4:10

It is also recorded as the one Paul persecuted and his (Jesus followers) Kerygma 22:8, 26:9

In other words, “The Way” has become the “Catholic Church”, Jesus the Nazorean, and any one who followed the Nazorean is a Christian.

Acts 7:54-60 you have Saul = Paul witnessing the martyrdom of the very first Christian St. Stephen.

Acts 8: 1 Now Saul was consenting to his execution. On that day, there broke out a severe persecution of the church in Jerusalem, and all were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 Devout men buried Stephen and made a loud lament over him. 3 **Saul, meanwhile, was trying to destroy the church; 3 entering house after house and dragging out men and women, he handed them over for imprisonment. 4 Now those who had been scattered went about preaching the word.**Acts 9: 1 **Now Saul, still breathing murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, that, if he should find any men or women who belonged to the Way, 2 he might bring them back to Jerusalem in chains. 3 On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, **a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Acts 9: 10 **There was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias, and the Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” He answered, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 The Lord said to him, “Get up and go to the street called Straight and ask at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul. He is there praying, 12 and (in a vision) he has seen a man named Ananias come in and lay (his) hands on him, that he may regain his sight.” 13 But Ananias replied, “Lord, I have heard from many sources about this man, what evil things he has done to your holy ones 4 in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to imprison all who call upon your name.” **

Acts 26: 1 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You may now speak on your own behalf.” So Paul stretched out his hand and began his defense. 9 **I myself once thought that I had to do many things against the name of Jesus the Nazorean, 10 and I did so in Jerusalem. I imprisoned many of the holy ones with the authorization I received from the chief priests, and when they were to be put to death I cast my vote against them. 11 Many times, in synagogue after synagogue, I punished them in an attempt to force them to blaspheme; I was so enraged against them that I pursued them even to foreign cities. 12 "On one such occasion I was traveling to Damascus with the authorization and commission of the chief priests. ** (Do you still need more proof that Paul persecuted Christians, who were followers of the Nazorean Jesus or recognized by the early Jews as Nazoreans.These scriptures make it clear that Saul now Paul had written authority from the Chief priests to persecute Christians in Damascus here when Paul was on trial before a King Aggrippa in his CONFESSION.)

13 At midday, along the way, O king, I saw a light from the sky, brighter than the sun, shining around me and my traveling companions. 14 We all fell to the ground and I heard a voice saying to me in Hebrew, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goad.’ 3 15 **And I said, ‘Who are you, sir?’ And the Lord replied, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 19 “And so, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision.
20 On the contrary, first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem and throughout the whole country of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached the need to repent and turn to God, and to do works giving evidence of repentance.
26 The king knows about these matters and to him I speak boldly, for I cannot believe that (any) of this has escaped his notice; this was not done in a corner. 8
27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? 9 I know you believe.”
28
Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You will soon persuade me to play the Christian.” **

Peace be with you:)
 
After 14 years Paul returned, was arrested and taken to Court by Ananias, the High Priest with a Lawyer to condemn him. But because of what the Nazarenes had done by saving his life 14 years before, Tertullus, the Lawyer accused Paul as a ringleader of the Sect of the Nazarenes. You can read this in Acts 24:1-9.

Now, do you understand what Sect of Nazarenes was that Lawyer talking about? They are the disciples of Jesus according to the New Way, which would make converts from even among the Pharisees. I hope I helped you this time.

Ben: 🙂
Gabriel of 12:
Tertullus the rhetor was a Roman and Jewish lawyer had to try the case because Paul appealed to Ceasar. In the same court room the King himself questioned Paul if he was trying to convert the King to be a CHRISTIAN in the same court room of your rhetor Tertullus who referenced the followers of the Nazorean Jesus to be Nazoreans, and King Agrippa confirmed these to be Christians.
 
Gabriel of 12:
Tertullus the rhetor was a Roman and Jewish lawyer had to try the case because Paul appealed to Ceasar. In the same court room the King himself questioned Paul if he was trying to convert the King to be a CHRISTIAN in the same court room of your rhetor Tertullus who referenced the followers of the Nazorean Jesus to be Nazoreans, and King Agrippa confirmed these to be Christians.
Gabriel, for Heaven’s sake, what are you trying to do to yourself and to us? We are talking about the connection Tertullus made between Paul and the Nazarenes, and you insist on sticking Christian into the subject.

When Agrippa said that Paul almost made a Christian out of him in Acts 27:28, it’s because Paul’s speech before Agrippa was loaded of assertions that Jesus was Christ. Nothing to do with the Nazarenes who never preached about Jesus as Christ.

And the connection Tertullus made of Paul with the Nazarenes, had nothing of the truth. He just wanted to get back on the Nazarenes for having made a fool out of the local Jews 14 years before when they spirited Paul out of Israel before an execution by stoning for preaching apostasy in Jerusalem.

Ben: 😦
 
Nothing to do with the Nazarenes who never preached about Jesus as Christ.

Gabriel of 12:

Tell me Ben, did you know that the Nazoreans had a Gospel? and in this Gospel the Nazoreans preached and taught about Jesus. And this Nazorean Gospel was read by Origen, St.Jerome and Eusibius Who are all confessed Catholic Christians and used this Nazorean Gospel in their exegisis. They also record that this Nazorean Gospel of Jesus mirrored the Gospel of Mathew.

I am sorry Ben, facts from Antiquity confirm Nazroeans to be Christians who followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. Maybe Hollywood has influenced your thinking, and maybe a little reading of the New Testament might help you understand the difference between early Jesus the Nazorean followers were indeed Christians.

Have you read the scriptures you requested about Paul persecuting Christians with the approval of the Chief Priests, while on his way to Damascus?
 
Gabriel of 12:

Quit bumping your head against the goad Ben: Here is your proof. Saul before he became a Christian Paul was given authority to persecute ALL Jews who were following “The Way of the Nazorean Jesus” to whom all of his followers recognized as Christians.
Gabriel, you are dreaming. Wake up! Reality cannot be what you wish it could. Paul never became a Christian. He founded Christianity. Read Acts 11:26. And Jesus with his disciples were never recognized as Christians, who were supposed to originate about 30 years later with Paul in Antioch.
In other words, “The Way” has become the “Catholic Church”, Jesus the Nazorean, and any one who followed the Nazorean is a Christian.
As I can see, you insist with your utopia. Go ahead, as long as you are happy.
Acts 7:54-60 you have Saul = Paul witnessing the martyrdom of the very first Christian St. Stephen.
Even if one chose to believe you that Stephen was the very first Christian, it was about 10 years after Jesus had been gone. It contradicts your assertion that Jesus and his disciples were Christians.Did you fall in your own spider’s web?

Ben: 🙂
 
Dear Ben,

While you are entitled to your own opinions, your seemingly constant attack on the Catholic Faith and it’s Doctrine is uncharitable, to say the least.

I pray that God enlightens your mind, fills your heart with His Wisdom and that we can discuss our differences together,
with dignity, someday, in His Presence

Until then, you are always in my prayers.

Peace be with you and yours.
 
Even if one chose to believe you that Stephen was the very first Christian, it was about 10 years after Jesus had been gone. It contradicts your assertion that Jesus and his disciples were Christians.Did you fall in your own spider’s web?

Ben: 🙂

Gabriel of 12:

I can tell by your post that you do not read the full context being expressed in the scriptures, maybe because you approach the Word of God with preconcieved prejudices, I understand your blindness to the Truth, one has to be seeking the Truth in order to find it. Example; I never said Stephen was the first Christian. I stated Stephen was the first Christian Martyr on record. When the boat goes by the dock, your supposed to step in, not wait till it passes and fall in the water.

It appears also you do not read the sacred scriptures with the Spirit of God. You see the letters on the page, and they reveal nothing to you, only doubt and disention. God’s word does not do this, only to those who are blind to the truth.

God can heal, take life and give life. Only if we just ask him. May the Lord be with you.
 
Ben Masada;4885534:
Nothing to do with the Nazarenes who never preached about Jesus as Christ.

Gabriel of 12:

Tell me Ben, did you know that the Nazoreans had a Gospel? and in this Gospel the Nazoreans preached and taught about Jesus. And this Nazorean Gospel was read by Origen, St.Jerome and Eusibius Who are all confessed Catholic Christians and used this Nazorean Gospel in their exegisis. They also record that this Nazorean Gospel of Jesus mirrored the Gospel of Mathew.

I am sorry Ben, facts from Antiquity confirm Nazroeans to be Christians who followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. Maybe Hollywood has influenced your thinking, and maybe a little reading of the New Testament might help you understand the difference between early Jesus the Nazorean followers were indeed Christians.

Have you read the scriptures you requested about Paul persecuting Christians with the approval of the Chief Priests, while on his way to Damascus?
Gabriel, you live in a world of utopia. A world you wish it could be true. But life is not like that. Yes, Jesus had a gospel. A gospel of revival of Judaism, according to Matthew 5:17-19. A gospel which would make of the converts staunch defenders of the Law, according to Acts 21:20 and not like the gospel of Paul, which was that the Law had been abolished on the cross. (Ephe. 2:15)

In fact, Paul openly contradicted Jesus when this declared loud and clear that he had not come to abolish the Jewish laws. To contradict is to stand against or anti. If Jesus was Christ, as you believe he was, it’s not too hard to figure what Paul was.

Therefore, the gospel of Jesus was an antithesis of the gospel of Paul. While the gospel of Jesus would make Law observant Jews, the gospel of Paul was to teach the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children and to renounce the Jewish customs. Quite the opposite, don’t you think so?

Ben: 🙂
 
Gabriel of 12:

Quit bumping your head against the goad Ben: Here is your proof. Saul before he became a Christian Paul was given authority to persecute ALL Jews who were following “The Way of the Nazorean Jesus” to whom all of his followers recognized as Christians. Please enjoy your read, I pray it open your eyes from such foolish arguments you have placed here;

Nazorean is the title given Jesus in the Kerygma 2:22, 4:10

It is also recorded as the one Paul persecuted and his (Jesus followers) Kerygma 22:8, 26:9

In other words, “The Way” has become the “Catholic Church”, Jesus the Nazorean, and any one who followed the Nazorean is a Christian.
Acts 7:54-60 you have Saul = Paul witnessing the martyrdom of the very first Christian St. Stephen.
This is the post you mentioned Stephen as the “very first Christian.” You did not say the first Christian to be martyred but that Paul witnessed the martyrdom of the very first Christian. You cannot write incorrect English and expect people to understand as you want. Am I not right to say that you live in a utopia world? That’s proof that you think we have to understand the way you want. It doesn’t go that way, my friend. Sorry!

Ben: 🙂
 
Ben Masada;4885626 said:
Gabriel, you live in a world of utopia. A world you wish it could be true. But life is not like that. Yes, Jesus had a gospel. A gospel of revival of Judaism, according to Matthew 5:17-19. A gospel which would make of the converts staunch defenders of the Law, according to Acts 21:20 and not like the gospel of Paul, which was that the Law had been abolished on the cross. (Ephe. 2:15)

Gabriel of 12:

I did not say Jesus had a gospel. Jesus never recorded a gospel. Are you being deceptive or you did not know this? I asked you did you know of a Nazorean Gospel? You know the Nazorean’s you claim did not preach or teach about Jesus? The Nazorean Gospel was used by the early Christians to defend the Catholic christian faith against heresy, proving that the Nazoreans were actually Christians.

Ben;
In fact, Paul openly contradicted Jesus when this declared loud and clear that he had not come to abolish the Jewish laws. To contradict is to stand against or anti. If Jesus was Christ, as you believe he was, it’s not too hard to figure what Paul was.

Gabriel of 12:
Ben, your beginning to sound like a broken record; what you claim about Paul and Jesus conflict with the scriptures you give and the whole of scripture teachings. I thought we went over your false theory of Paul contradiction of Jesus.

Ben;
Therefore, the gospel of Jesus was an antithesis of the gospel of Paul. While the gospel of Jesus would make Law observant Jews, the gospel of Paul was to teach the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children and to renounce the Jewish customs. Quite the opposite, don’t you think so?

Ben: 🙂

Gabriel of 12:

Ben I can execuse some blunders because of language translations. But Jesus nor Paul never had a Gospel. Paul recorded Epistles. Paul never taught to abandon Moses. Catholics today haven’t abandoned Moses. Paul was teaching that circumcision was entrance into the Old Covenant, and inorder to enter the New and Everlasting Covenant one must be baptised in the name of Jesus.

Paul was only teaching what Jesus taught his disciples. Only Paul went out to teach the Gentiles that God no longer lives in a temple, God desires to live in our hearts mind and soul. Paul was teaching Gentiles and Jews how this was done. If one was born a Jew, Paul did not deny this person from being circumcised. Paul was just teaching how to enter into the New and everlasting Covenant of God. You got Paul all wrong in his theology. Believe me, if Pauls teachings contradicted Jesus teachings, Paul would of disappeared along time ago. But Paul like all the other Christian Martyrs went to their death for Jesus willingly without resistance.
 
Dear Ben,

While you are entitled to your own opinions, your seemingly constant attack on the Catholic Faith and it’s Doctrine is uncharitable, to say the least.

I pray that God enlightens your mind, fills your heart with His Wisdom and that we can discuss our differences together,
with dignity, someday, in His Presence

Until then, you are always in my prayers.

Peace be with you and yours.
Thank you Jimdandy, but I do not agree that I am attacking the Catholic Faith. If this sounds like I am attacking, God have mercy on me for the endless attacks of Catholics on me
in this forum. In this NON-CATHOLIC section of the forum.

Ben: 🙂
 
** I had been requesting the Catholic friends not to ride in two boats at once. I being a non-christian can easily see (from BibleNT) that the role of Saul is totally different to that of Jesus. So the Catholics can have one of the two, either Saul or Jesus.

They call him Paul. So it is better they can take Paul and leave Jesus to the Jews**.
 
Ben,
You still have not addressed why you stop short in Acts, just before it says that Paul was accepted by the Brethren.

Is it because it blows your theory out of the water?
 
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