My Opinion: No Piercing At Jesus' Side

[Ben_Masada]

Well, Ben, you seem very keen on what happens in armies. No room for ANY initiatives at all? I don’t think the orders are always as precise and restricted as to what to do or not to do in certain situations…
Were you there when then their superiors issued their orders in the case of crucifixions? You certainly must have been there…
Why the soldier did what he did, I don’t know. That he did I am more certain. Why this detail struck the Apostle John that much I can’t tell you, but it certainly struck him.
And why did he report this in his account of the Gospel, well, I don’t know for sure, except that to him it must have been of some importance. And why not?

Take from here that John never wrote that gospel. It was written by a Gentile, probably a former disciple of Paul. Too much non-Jewish stuff to have been written by a Jew. He was most definitely a Greek with a very poor knowledge of what being Jewish means.

 

[Lapell]

I am all for analysing anything according to the context as long as the whole thing is Jewish. You cannot give me Jesus being born of a woman withoug the participation of a human father because this is not Jewish. Can you see what I mean?

And how do YOU determine what and how things are or are not Jewish, tell me? Is God bound by decisions by some Jews, however knowledgeable they can be? I thought He would only be bound by HIS OWN actual words…

 

[Lapell]

Take from here that John never wrote that gospel. It was written by a Gentile, probably a former disciple of Paul. Too much non-Jewish stuff to have been written by a Jew. He was most definitely a Greek with a very poor knowledge of what being Jewish means.

I am afraid Christianity brought things quite new so that you can’t see any continuity between Judaism and it, whether there might be or not doesn’t seem to have been a thing to even consider in your eyes, so I cannot agree with you on this. I even would suggest that you lack actual knowledge of what Christianity truly is and teaches and that you are judging Christianity after just a few bits of very incomplete information. Many things obvious to us Christians can’t seem to be understood by you, even with your knowledge of Judaism.
Indeed, you seem to know Judaism much more than you “know” the God of Israel!

 

[Lapell]

And so I have to reject your take about John not being the human author of the Gospel according to John!
And what in Christianity REALLY bothers you so much, that you started so many threads trying to discredit what we Catholics have learned from the Bible, the Church Fathers and the magisterium of the Church?

 

[Ben_Masada]

And so I have to reject your take about John not being the human author of the Gospel according to John!
And what in Christianity REALLY bothers you so much, that you started so many threads trying to discredit what we Catholics have learned from the Bible, the Church Fathers and the magisterium of the Church?

As long as Christians use a religious Jew to distort the image of Judaism in the world, I will be there to bring some light to fix it. Didn’t Isaiah say that Israel was given as light unto the Gentiles? (Isa. 42:6) And didn’t Jesus say that the Jews are the light of the world? (Mat. 5:14) What did you expect me to do, to stay silent?

 

[Ben_Masada]

I am afraid Christianity brought things quite new so that you can’t see any continuity between Judaism and it, whether there might be or not doesn’t seem to have been a thing to even consider in your eyes, so I cannot agree with you on this. I even would suggest that you lack actual knowledge of what Christianity truly is and teaches and that you are judging Christianity after just a few bits of very incomplete information. Many things obvious to us Christians can’t seem to be understood by you, even with your knowledge of Judaism.
Indeed, you seem to know Judaism much more than you “know” the God of Israel!

**The God of Judaism and the God of Israel is one and the same. So, I lack actual knowledge of what Christianity is! Maybe. And what are you doing to help me with that lack of knowledge? Practically nothing. You can’t even answer my questions withouth contradicting yourself. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

And how do YOU determine what and how things are or are not Jewish, tell me? Is God bound by decisions by some Jews, however knowledgeable they can be? I thought He would only be bound by HIS OWN actual words…

Isaiah 8:20. “To the Law and the Testimony; if they do not speak according to this pattern, it’s because there is no light in them.” If anything you say is according to that pattern, it’s Jewish. Otherwise, it’s not Jewish.

 

[SteveLohr]

Take from here that John never wrote that gospel. It was written by a Gentile, probably a former disciple of Paul. Too much non-Jewish stuff to have been written by a Jew. He was most definitely a Greek with a very poor knowledge of what being Jewish means.

Ben, the evidence is that the Apostle John in fact wrote the Gospel of John. This is based on several facts: 1) John claims authorship in the gospel; 2) Irenaeus relays that he, (Irenaeus) was told by Polycarp, who was a student of John’s, that John wrote the gospel; 3) the Muratorian fragment appears to confirm John’s autorship; 4) Origen indcates John wrote the Gospel; 5) Circumstantial detail in the gospel of John is consistent with eyewitness testamony; 6) There is no testimonial or documenary evidence from the 1st or 2nd century that contradicts John’s authorship. In summary, all the evidence is that John wrote the Gospel of John. If you want citations, go to my outline at
geocities.com/stevelohr2001/jesus-factorfiction06242008.html
and start looking around footnote 22.

In terms of whether Jesus was pierced by the spear-As I have established above, John was an eyewitness. His observation that “blood and water” (John 19:34) came out is consistent with Jesus having suffered a pericardial effusion (the collection of fluid in the membrane around the heart) as the result of his crucifixion. This in turn establishes that 1) Jesus was dead, as the spear pierced his heart; and 2) Is consistent with John being an eye witness, as such details as the types of fluid coming from a deep chest wound would be very unusual coming from a fictional account written by someone in the first century. For those who are interested, an interesting forensic medical study on the death of Jesus can be found at:
Dr. William Edwards “On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ” JAMA March 21, 1986, vol. 256. A copy is at:
cfpeople.org/apologetics/page51a024.html

Regards,

 

[Lapell]

**As long as Christians use a religious Jew to distort the image of Judaism in the world, I will be there to bring some light to fix it. Didn’t Isaiah say that Israel was given as light unto the Gentiles? (Isa. 42:6) **

Hum… So we have “used a religious Jew to distort the image of Judaism in the world”!! I am afraid that this accusation is a rather grave one, sir! I am not sure that you actually can prove it in a truly conclusive manner, especially when you bring no conclusive evidence that Paul was indeed guilty of the things he was brought on trial for.

 

[Lapell]

And how do YOU determine what and how things are or are not Jewish, tell me? Is God bound by decisions by some Jews, however knowledgeable they can be? I thought He would only be bound by HIS OWN actual words…

I don’t think you answered my second question, Ben!

 

[Lapell]

**The God of Judaism and the God of Israel is one and the same. So, I lack actual knowledge of what Christianity is! Maybe. And what are you doing to help me with that lack of knowledge? Practically nothing. You can’t even answer my questions withouth contradicting yourself. **

An example of what you are saying would help me see it if it is the case, Ben. Can you provide me with one such example? I assure you it would help…

 

[Lapell]

**The God of Judaism and the God of Israel is one and the same. So, I lack actual knowledge of what Christianity is! Maybe. And what are you doing to help me with that lack of knowledge? Practically nothing. You can’t even answer my questions withouth contradicting yourself. **

Maybe you should be dealing with Catholic bishops and priests rather than with these poor ignorants that you see in us…

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, the evidence is that the Apostle John in fact wrote the Gospel of John. This is based on several facts: 1) John claims authorship in the gospel; 2) Irenaeus relays that he, (Irenaeus) was told by Polycarp, who was a student of John’s, that John wrote the gospel; 3) the Muratorian fragment appears to confirm John’s autorship; 4) Origen indcates John wrote the Gospel; 5) Circumstantial detail in the gospel of John is consistent with eyewitness testamony; 6) There is no testimonial or documenary evidence from the 1st or 2nd century that contradicts John’s authorship. In summary, all the evidence is that John wrote the Gospel of John. If you want citations, go to my outline at
geocities.com/stevelohr2001/jesus-factorfiction06242008.html
and start looking around footnote 22.

In terms of whether Jesus was pierced by the spear-As I have established above, John was an eyewitness. His observation that “blood and water” (John 19:34) came out is consistent with Jesus having suffered a pericardial effusion (the collection of fluid in the membrane around the heart) as the result of his crucifixion. This in turn establishes that 1) Jesus was dead, as the spear pierced his heart; and 2) Is consistent with John being an eye witness, as such details as the types of fluid coming from a deep chest wound would be very unusual coming from a fictional account written by someone in the first century. For those who are interested, an interesting forensic medical study on the death of Jesus can be found at:
Dr. William Edwards “On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ” JAMA March 21, 1986, vol. 256. A copy is at:
cfpeople.org/apologetics/page51a024.html

Regards,

To believe that John the Apostle wrote the fourth gospel is to dig contradictions in the NT. No Jew would come up with those ideas if he first did not apostate from Judaism, as Paul did. Then, opinions of men with Christian preconceived notions mean nothing to me.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Hum… So we have “used a religious Jew to distort the image of Judaism in the world”!! I am afraid that this accusation is a rather grave one, sir! I am not sure that you actually can prove it in a truly conclusive manner, especially when you bring no conclusive evidence that Paul was indeed guilty of the things he was brought on trial for.

All right Lapell, so you want proofs that you are using a religious Jew to distort the image of Judaism in the eyes of the world. There are many but one is enough to satisfy your request. To claim that a Jew was begotten by God in a woman without the help of human father is to distort the image of Judaism with the potential of Greek Mythology. This is an attempt to change the character of the Jewish religion.

 

[Walburga]

Ben Masada, give it up! You’ve been on this since Christmas day! I read page one and this last comment. Unbelievable, really.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I don’t think you answered my second question, Ben!

Is God bound by the decision of Christians to alter Judaism from the strict Monotheism of absolute unity into a Trinity? That’s the answer to your second question.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Maybe you should be dealing with Catholic bishops and priests rather than with these poor ignorants that you see in us…

Do not humble yourself that far. I have held face-to-face debates with two priests. Once with a Sallesian priest and another time with a Capuchin Monk from the Order of the Franciscans. They were short-lived debates, which only served to cause disappointments on me for their lack of Scriptural knowledge and poor handling of the art of Apologetics. Catholics here in this forum are more of a challenge to me.

 

[Lapell]

To believe that John the Apostle wrote the fourth gospel is to dig contradictions in the NT. No Jew would come up with those ideas if he first did not apostate from Judaism, as Paul did. Then, opinions of men with Christian preconceived notions mean nothing to me.

If it means nothing to you, why then take the pain to come on this forum to discuss our Gospel and the NT matters, hmm?

 

[Lapell]

Is God bound by the decision of Christians to alter Judaism from the strict Monotheism of absolute unity into a Trinity? That’s the answer to your second question.

A Trinity that’s a Tri-Unity indeed!!

 

[Lapell]

All right Lapell, so you want proofs that you are using a religious Jew to distort the image of Judaism in the eyes of the world. There are many but one is enough to satisfy your request. To claim that a Jew was begotten by God in a woman without the help of human father is to distort the image of Judaism with the potential of Greek Mythology. This is an attempt to change the character of the Jewish religion.

The way I see it, it’s rather like: we learned it and we believed it, while you also learned it but didn’t!
You keep bringing the Greek mythology in… I suppose you read it in some commentaries by rabbis pointing out (in passing, of course!) how Christianity in their opinion views this and that, right?