My Opinion

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To the OP and the opening post. Very simply…to each his own. That is the nice thing about the Church that now if available we can have a choice between the two the NO and the TLM or more importantly from my standpoint…both of them. Which I have said before is the best of both worlds.👍
 
so, i don’t advocate getting rid of TLM. i don’t even mind having both TLM and NO in the same church, as is the case in my parish. i totally agree that there is a need for both, and if you read the title of this thread, you will see it says “My Opinion”.
as people in this thread have said, to each their own, you have the TLM, i have the NO. the problem is that, as we have also seen in this thread, that many TLMers make the claim the NO is wrong, disobedient, somehow inferior, or whatever, and claim the NO MUST use latin or we must just go back to TLM only. my reason for this post is i just got sick of the better/holier-than-thou superiority trip.
 
so, i don’t advocate getting rid of TLM. i don’t even mind having both TLM and NO in the same church, as is the case in my parish. i totally agree that there is a need for both, and if you read the title of this thread, you will see it says “My Opinion”.
as people in this thread have said, to each their own, you have the TLM, i have the NO. the problem is that, as we have also seen in this thread, that many TLMers make the claim the NO is wrong, disobedient, somehow inferior, or whatever, and claim the NO MUST use latin or we must just go back to TLM only. my reason for this post is i just got sick of the better/holier-than-thou superiority trip.
I think you have missed a lot of posts then.

The posters who might be what you call a TLMer, most often hold a very similar position, which is:

[1] The TLM was never abrogated. Now, thankfully the Pope has made that clear, and further, he expects it to be made available whereever even a small group desires it. (but we now see which group is disobedient in that regard)

[2] The TLM has been restricted the most by the choice of the ordinary (bishop). This could be because many an ordinary, knowing they could give an indult for the TLM treated this authority as if they should first deny… then maybe give an occassional indult.

[3] VatII gave no instructions to stop the TLM and start the NO*.(and certainly not as we too often experience it today)*

[4] The NO invisioned 40 years ago offered very few and minor changes for a second form of the Mass.

[5] Over the last 40 years a number of abuses were introduced by both clergy (in their arrogance IHMO), and also by the laity (in their ignorance and arrogance MHO).

[6] Over time, many of the abuses were finally addressed by local ordinaries and by pastors. They were simply "christened" as “norms”. (Again, IMHO, this happened to maintain collections, not to maintain liturgical orthodoxy.)

[7] The conversion of Latin to English resulted in a significant loss of understanding of what the words of the liturgy were always meant to say. (this is also true of the new postures, and other “active participation” elements chosen without authority by some… perhaps with good intention, but wrong just the same…IMHO)

[8] Thus TLMers realize that the abuses/norms that have crept into the NO are the problem.

[9] I think the properly said NO is a beautiful liturgy. That would be the NO as offered 40 years ago (retain some Latin, retain some Chant, retain the postures and gestures by the celebrant, retain the postures and gestures by the people, etc etc… not to mention the changes in the sanctuary)

[10] That “proper” NO, as intended, is not easily available. And TLMers often have enough sense of liturgical history to see that. It may seem offensive, but “non-TLMers” post as if they have little sense of that same history… and don’t seem to really care…IMHO.

“Horizontal Liturgy” is running rampant. And you will see none of it by the Pope… either in Rome or here when he visits.

.
 
Sorry! I was born and raised (for the most part) on the Rock. Maybe I picked up the stereotypical “stunned”-ness. 🙂

This is the third time I’ve tried to post this…I’m NOT having a good day!:mad: 😃
 
I was born and raised (for the most part) on the Rock.🙂
You’re in the military so that comes as no surprise. 😃

Where on the Rock? Not that I’m familiar with all areas, I’ve only really travelled from Port-aux-Basques to Lewisporte with side trips to Cape St. Georges and a couple of trips to the drama festival in Grand Falls-Windsor & St. John’s.
 
You’re in the military so that comes as no surprise. 😃

Where on the Rock? Not that I’m familiar with all areas, I’ve only really travelled from Port-aux-Basques to Lewisporte with side trips to Cape St. Georges and a couple of trips to the drama festival in Grand Falls-Windsor & St. John’s.
Born St John’s; moved to T.O. at 18 mos; Corner Brook grades 4-6; St. John’s grade 7 to 4 yrs ago.

Never been to Labrador, tho’ always wanted to. My Squadron did a winter exercise near Goose 4 yrs ago.

As for NB, I’ve spent a few summers in Gagetown (and nearby Oromocto), and visited Saint John, Fredericton, and Grand Falls. Beautiful country.

Oh, and just so I don’t get completely off topic…huzzah for the OF, and in the next week or two I’m going to a Latin Mass to see. And OF or EF, three cheers for God.
 
Born St John’s; moved to T.O. at 18 mos; Corner Brook grades 4-6; St. John’s grade 7 to 4 yrs ago.

Never been to Labrador, tho’ always wanted to. My Squadron did a winter exercise near Goose 4 yrs ago.

As for NB, I’ve spent a few summers in Gagetown (and nearby Oromocto), and visited Saint John, Fredericton, and Grand Falls. Beautiful country.

Oh, and just so I don’t get completely off topic…huzzah for the OF, and in the next week or two I’m going to a Latin Mass to see. And OF or EF, three cheers for God.
AMEN!

I’m originally from the NB Nort’ Shore.
 
some claims made by traditionalists:
  1. if we stick with only the traditional latin mass, everyone everywhere will be able to know what is going on because everyone will follow the same form.
this is pure junk. i have been all over the world and was able to follow along in the NO in the general sense, as i have stated before. since i can go anywhere in the world and follow along in an NO mass, it seems that the priests are following a standard, and therefore makes this point made by the traditionalists absolutely moot.
  1. the NO as it stands today is not what was intended, or is somehow wrong.
i’m not a theological or ecclesiastical lawyer, but i believe this is also pure junk. generally, this point stems from a specific interpretation of wording from canon law. there are abuses of liturgy, of course, but in the vast majority of the churches i have been to, the NO has been practiced very similarly, and without too much variance. the idea that the current NO is disobedient is pure fantasy. if the vast majority of the bishops, priests, and laity across the WORLD are following a standard for the NO, the only place all of these people could have received this standard from is the Apostolic See. it is ludicrous to believe that the people in Tokyo are being disobedient in exactly the same way as the people in Lima, Boston, Berlin or anywhere (everywhere) else. my point here is, there is a standard used across the world for the NO, and if this standard was truly disobedient to the magisterium, then the magisterium would have been doing something about it over the past several decades. making TLM more accessible is not the same as correcting alleged faults in the NO. encouraging the use of latin WHEN THE PEOPLE REQUEST IT, is not the same as correcting alleged faults in the NO. the only reform of the NO going on right now that i know of, and which i agree with, is to have a more accurate translation. since the vatican is NOT calling for a wholesale reformation of the NO, this can only mean that the standard being used is accurately following what the vatican expects.
 
Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
this, in no way, REQUIRES latin to be used.
I’m saying that we should be using both the vernacular and Latin on a regular basis as per the CSL. We are after all the Latin Rite Church and the official language of the Church and of the Liturgy is Latin.
if you want latin, attend a TLM. i don’t want latin, so i attend NO.
 
this, in no way, REQUIRES latin to be used.

if you want latin, attend a TLM. i don’t want latin, so i attend NO.
Can’t NO mass be done in latin too? Just wondered.

thanks, Richie
 
Can’t NO mass be done in latin too? Just wondered.

thanks, Richie
The introduction of a second form of the liturgy, the NO as we call it, did not include dropping all the Latin, adding an altar so the priest could face the people, etc. What we see present as the NO is most often nowhere near the intentions of the Church some 40 years ago.

So perhaps the question should have been*…“Can’t NO mass be done in english too?”*
 
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