My parish celebrated the Feast Day of Bl. JPII instead of the 29th Sunday of Ordinary Time...?

[YoungTradCath]

And I was like, whaaaat? First thing I saw was white vestments… quite odd in Ordinary Time on a Sunday, I thought.

During his homily, father said all the priests of the diocese (of Charleston) were ordered by the bishop to celebrate Bl. JPII’s feast day today, which is actually on October 22. He mentioned the very true fact that Sunday liturgies are NEVER trumped by any celebration (other than the usual Sunday-celebrated ones), but then said that it was the desire of the bishop and of Rome (vague…) to have celebrated the feast day instead of the 29th Sunday of Ordinary Time, even though the 29th Sunday outranks JPII’s feast day. I don’t have a doubt in my mind that father was doing what he was supposed to do, as he was all quite confused about the situation as well, and mentioned it as “something above [his] pay-grade…” Another weird thing is that all the 29th Sunday readings were used and stuff like that.

What is the deal with this, if anyone knows? I know I met my obligation, and I’m not exactly worried. Just slightly confused. I don’t think this kind of thing really ever happens… but it just did…

Also… just re-realized that today marks the thirty-third anniversary of the election of Bl. JPII as pontifex maximus. I suspect this could have something to do with it, but it doesn’t change the fact that the 29th Sunday still outranks his feast day, which isn’t even until Saturday… i iz moar confuzd

 

[1ke]

Perhaps the priest was referring to the Thanksgiving Mass to be celebrated in honor of JPII’s beatification. It must be celebrated by May of next year and the bishop can choose the date.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1101438.htm

This is not the same as the Feast Day, which is limited to Rome and Poland unless the bishop is given permission from the Vatican.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Perhaps the priest was referring to the Thanksgiving Mass to be celebrated in honor of JPII’s beatification. It must be celebrated by May of next year and the bishop can choose the date.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1101438.htm

This is not the same as the Feast Day, which is limited to Rome and Poland unless the bishop is given permission from the Vatican.

No, suh’. Father specifically called this the “feast day mass” and that it “normally is outranked by any Sunday Ordinary Time mass,” except today, by order of the bishop, and “Rome.” He specifically got in to liturgical rankings and whatnot, actually quite technical, and was as genuinely as confused about it as the parishioners. He was supportive of the bishop’s decision, as the bishop is the bishop, but he was still quite confused.

… >.> …

 

[1ke]

No, suh’. Father specifically called this the “feast day mass” and that it “normally is outranked by any Sunday Ordinary Time mass,” except today, by order of the bishop, and “Rome.” He specifically got in to liturgical rankings and whatnot, actually quite technical, and was as genuinely as confused about it as the parishioners. He was supportive of the bishop’s decision, as the bishop is the bishop, but he was still quite confused.

… >.> …

Well then, you are asking in the wrong place. You need to ask your priest or the diocese for clarification.

 

[jmj1984]

And I was like, whaaaat? First thing I saw was white vestments… quite odd in Ordinary Time on a Sunday, I thought.

During his homily, father said all the priests of the diocese (of Charleston) were ordered by the bishop to celebrate Bl. JPII’s feast day today, which is actually on October 22. He mentioned the very true fact that Sunday liturgies are NEVER trumped by any celebration (other than the usual Sunday-celebrated ones), but then said that it was the desire of the bishop and of Rome (vague…) to have celebrated the feast day instead of the 29th Sunday of Ordinary Time, even though the 29th Sunday outranks JPII’s feast day. I don’t have a doubt in my mind that father was doing what he was supposed to do, as he was all quite confused about the situation as well, and mentioned it as “something above [his] pay-grade…” Another weird thing is that all the 29th Sunday readings were used and stuff like that.

What is the deal with this, if anyone knows? I know I met my obligation, and I’m not exactly worried. Just slightly confused. I don’t think this kind of thing really ever happens… but it just did…

Also… just re-realized that today marks the thirty-third anniversary of the election of Bl. JPII as pontifex maximus. I suspect this could have something to do with it, but it doesn’t change the fact that the 29th Sunday still outranks his feast day, which isn’t even until Saturday… i iz moar confuzd

Sounds like the bishop was a big fan of John Paul II

 

[Anna_Claire]

This is from the GIRM:*
58. For the pastoral advantage of the people, it is permissible to observe on the Sundays in Ordinary Time those celebrations that fall during the week and have special appeal to the devotion of the faithful, provided the celebrations take precedence over these Sundays in the Table of Liturgical Days. The Mass for such celebrations may be used at all the Masses at which a congregation is present*.

It’s a good possibility that your bishop decided to choose this weekend for the JPII memorial mass. The Vatican let the local ordinaries decide.

 

[jmj1984]

This is from the GIRM:*
58. For the pastoral advantage of the people, it is permissible to observe on the Sundays in Ordinary Time those celebrations that fall during the week and have special appeal to the devotion of the faithful, provided the celebrations take precedence over these Sundays in the Table of Liturgical Days. The Mass for such celebrations may be used at all the Masses at which a congregation is present*.

It’s a good possibility that your bishop decided to choose this weekend for the JPII memorial mass. The Vatican let the local ordinaries decide.

The question then becomes do these celebrations take precedence over the sunday in question in the table of liturgical days?

 

[YoungTradCath]

This is from the GIRM:*
58. For the pastoral advantage of the people, it is permissible to observe on the Sundays in Ordinary Time those celebrations that fall during the week and have special appeal to the devotion of the faithful, provided the celebrations take precedence over these Sundays in the Table of Liturgical Days. The Mass for such celebrations may be used at all the Masses at which a congregation is present*.

It’s a good possibility that your bishop decided to choose this weekend for the JPII memorial mass. The Vatican let the local ordinaries decide.

It was not the memorial mass, which is only celebrated once, and there is only a one-year time frame for it. It was a celebration of the feast day mass, the day that will reoccur every year, except instead of being on this coming Saturday, as is its normative day, it was transferred to this Sunday.

The question then becomes do these celebrations take precedence over the sunday in question in the table of liturgical days?

The feast does not take precedence/outrank the 29th Sunday. Father said it didn’t, and was confused on that very point. That’s why I’m also confused. JPII’s feast day doesn’t outrank an Ordinary Time Sunday mass. But the bishop ordered the entire diocese to celebrate it on this day, and it complied.

 

[AJV]

The question then becomes do these celebrations take precedence over the sunday in question in the table of liturgical days?

The previous poster quoted from the General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar (GNLYC) not the GIRM. The celebration of most *canonized *saints do not do not outrank a Sunday, let alone those who were beatified.

The relevant part of the GIRM however, which I think the poster meant to quote, is:

1. In cases of serious need or pastoral advantage, at the direction of the diocesan Bishop or with his permission, an appropriate Mass may be celebrated on any day except solemnities, the Sundays of Advent, Lent, and Easter, days within the Octave of Easter, the Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed (All Souls’ Day), Ash Wednesday, and Holy Week.

However, this Mass, as stated previously, would have to have been the Thanksgiving Mass for the beatification. As a Blessed, the cult paid to the saint can only be local and currently is only permitted for the Diocese of Rome and the dioceses and archdioceses of Poland. I believe the US bishops are considering requesting its insertion into the American Proper Calendar, but until that time, one cannot celebrate the *cultus * of John Paul II with a public liturgical rite, either the Mass or the Liturgy of the Hours. Thus it would have been a mistake to celebrate the Mass even on a Saturday. The only loophole might be for a church which had Bl. John Paul II as its titular.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Ask your priest again. He may have the request a bit more sorted out now. Or check with your diocese. We have no idea what your bishop was thinking.

 

[YoungTradCath]

The previous poster quoted from the General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar (GNLYC) not the GIRM. The celebration of most *canonized *saints do not do not outrank a Sunday, let alone those who were beatified.

The relevant part of the GIRM however, which I think the poster meant to quote, is:

However, this Mass, as stated previously, would have to have been the Thanksgiving Mass for the beatification. As a Blessed, the cult paid to the saint can only be local and currently is only permitted for the Diocese of Rome and the dioceses and archdioceses of Poland. I believe the US bishops are considering requesting its insertion into the American Proper Calendar, but until that time, one cannot celebrate the *cultus * of John Paul II with a public liturgical rite, either the Mass or the Liturgy of the Hours. Thus it would have been a mistake to celebrate the Mass even on a Saturday. The only loophole might be for a church which had Bl. John Paul II as its titular.

So I guess no logic really could explain this. I’m not terribly worried at all. I don’t really care enough to call the bishop or his vicar. It was all just quite weird, the semi-JPII, semi-29th-Sunday, yet-still-called-Feast-Day-of-JPII-by-bishop mass, celebrated by every priest celebrating mass today in the entire diocese, as ordered by the bishop.

One interesting note was that all this information, as per what father said, was conveyed not by the bishop himself to the parishes, but by the diocese’s “liturgical director,” a monsignor, on the bishop’s order. Something perhaps could have gotten lost in translation. I think somebody made a big mistake somewhere. Nothing MAJORLY serious, but I still think it was kind of… disconcerting, if not wrong.

Maybe Bishop Guglielmone just… messed up, and no canon lawyer caught it. Bishops, after all, are people.

 

[jmj1984]

So I guess no logic really could explain this. I’m not terribly worried at all. I don’t really care enough to call the bishop or his vicar. It was all just quite weird, the semi-JPII, semi-29th-Sunday, yet-still-called-Feast-Day-of-JPII-by-bishop mass, celebrated by every priest celebrating mass today in the entire diocese, as ordered by the bishop.

One interesting note was that all this information, as per what father said, was conveyed not by the bishop himself to the parishes, but by the diocese’s “liturgical director,” a monsignor, on the bishop’s order. Something perhaps could have gotten lost in translation. I think somebody made a big mistake somewhere. Nothing MAJORLY serious, but I still think it was kind of… disconcerting, if not wrong.

Maybe Bishop Guglielmone just… messed up, and no canon lawyer caught it. Bishops, after all, are people.

This sounds most likely, after all as a previous poster said there are very very few feasts which outrank a sunday, a few marian feasts, a few feasts of Christ e.g the sacred heart and perhaps a few saints but thats all.

 

[healonzo]

And I was like, whaaaat? First thing I saw was white vestments… quite odd in Ordinary Time on a Sunday, I thought.

During his homily, father said all the priests of the diocese (of Charleston) were ordered by the bishop to celebrate Bl. JPII’s feast day today, which is actually on October 22. He mentioned the very true fact that Sunday liturgies are NEVER trumped by any celebration (other than the usual Sunday-celebrated ones), but then said that it was the desire of the bishop and of Rome (vague…) to have celebrated the feast day instead of the 29th Sunday of Ordinary Time, even though the 29th Sunday outranks JPII’s feast day. I don’t have a doubt in my mind that father was doing what he was supposed to do, as he was all quite confused about the situation as well, and mentioned it as “something above [his] pay-grade…” Another weird thing is that all the 29th Sunday readings were used and stuff like that.

What is the deal with this, if anyone knows? I know I met my obligation, and I’m not exactly worried. Just slightly confused. I don’t think this kind of thing really ever happens… but it just did…

Also… just re-realized that today marks the thirty-third anniversary of the election of Bl. JPII as pontifex maximus. I suspect this could have something to do with it, but it doesn’t change the fact that the 29th Sunday still outranks his feast day, which isn’t even until Saturday… i iz moar confuzd

They did the same thing in my diocese. Read below- They moved it from October 22nd to last Sunday with permission from Vatican.

Inserting the New Blessed into Local Liturgical Calendars
The annual celebration of Blessed John Paul II is to be inserted into the liturgical calendars of the Diocese of Rome and all the Dioceses of Poland as a Memorial to be observed on October 22.
As for the liturgical texts, the Collect and the second reading of the Office of Readings, together with its Response, are to be inserted into the Proper of Saints. The other texts are to be taken from the Common of Pastors: For a Pope.
With regard to other local calendars, any request that the celebration of Blessed John Paul II be observed as an Optional Memorial is to be submitted to this Congregation by a local Conference of Bishops when it involves an entire territory, a Diocesan Bishop when it involves an individual diocese, and a Superior General when the request pertains to a religious community.

 

[jmj1984]

Oh, just remembered!

When feasts clash, don’t you make a memorial of the lower ranking one but draw most of the ‘texts’ of the mass from the higher ranking one? Thats an oversimplification of things I know but it would explain why there was a mixture of readings and so on.

 

[healonzo]

Oh, just remembered!

When feasts clash, don’t you make a memorial of the lower ranking one but draw most of the ‘texts’ of the mass from the higher ranking one? Thats an oversimplification of things I know but it would explain why there was a mixture of readings and so on.

I believe so. I was surprised when I went to Mass. Our priest read a letter from our Bishop about it, and although it was wordy, I understood their motivations.

 

[jmj1984]

If I am right its a fairly common occurence, especially during the week when several feasts might clash with one day, I presume it gets more complicated when the feasts are of the same rank.

 

[Anna_Claire]

Charleston not the only diocese…this from Springfield Illinois…
ct.dio.org/diocesan-life/diocesan-life-articles/diocese-to-honor-blessed-pope-john-paul-ii-at-masses-oct-16.html

 

[Prague]

We didn’t celecbrate the Feast Day of Bl. JP, but our priest did talk about St. Gall whose feast day it was.

 

[1ke]

Charleston not the only diocese…this from Springfield Illinois…
ct.dio.org/diocesan-life/diocesan-life-articles/diocese-to-honor-blessed-pope-john-paul-ii-at-masses-oct-16.html

As noted in your link, this is not a celebration of the Feast Day for John Paul II, which is October 22 and only approved in Rome and Poland. The US bishops are taking this up at the November meeting, so they may petition Rome to add the Feast to the US calendar in future years.

Your diocese celebrated the thankgiving mass to be celebrated on a date of the bishop’s choosing between May 1, 2011 and May 1, 2012. I suspect Charleston did too, and the priest misunderstood.

 

[Anna_Claire]

Not my diocese 1ke. I’m from Boston and it was a normal Sunday in Ordinary Time here. I’m just pointing out to the OP that Springfield did the same as Charleston. (so it had to be the thanksgiving mass). I’m not sure why his pastor was confused about it. Also, I know it was not the feast day…and I know that the USCCB will have that on their November agenda.